Video Interview, Betty Dwyer, August 16, 2012
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Get into this.
- Just think of it as a one-on-one conversation between the two
- of us--
- no camera, no lights, none of that stuff.
- If you get lost, if you lose your train
- of thought or stumble or something, just stop.
- Let me try that again, answer it again.
- The audience is not gonna hear me and my questions to you.
- BETTY DWYER: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK?
- So if you could somehow set up your responses that
- incorporates my question into your response-- you know,
- Betty, tell me about you coming into the city today.
- Well, when I was driving into the city today, I--
- BETTY DWYER: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That kind of thing.
- CREW: And we may, just because there's a hallway,
- we may have to stop because someone's walking--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible) yeah.
- And I'm--
- EVELYN BAILEY: Have you had to do that?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, just once or twice when
- the caterers were coming through with their squeaky carts.
- But for the most part, it's been pretty quiet.
- EVELYN BAILEY: Good.
- CREW: I'm rolling.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We're rolling?
- OK.
- First of all, Betty, when we put your name on screen,
- can you give me the correct spelling of your first
- and last name of how you would like it to appear?
- BETTY DWYER: Alright.
- Sure.
- B-E-T-T-Y. D-W-Y-E-R.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There's two points of interest
- that I really want to focus in on with you.
- One is the CETA funding and then later on, GAGV
- and their fights with the city.
- So let's just kind of focus on the CETA funding thing first.
- Can you describe for me, as though I've never
- heard of CETA funding before, what is it?
- And how did the Gay Alliance get involved with it?
- BETTY DWYER: OK.
- OK.
- In the late seventies, there were serious economic problems,
- and employment, or lack thereof, was a major issue.
- So the federal government instituted
- a program called the Concentrated Employment
- and Training Program, then becoming known as CETA.
- And it made funds available to localities, cities,
- municipalities to hire people who
- were unemployed to work in a public service capacity.
- And so the city of Rochester, of course,
- was always on top of trying to get whatever assistance
- it could.
- And it got funds.
- And it decided to designate one million dollars of those funds,
- or approximately one million dollars
- in creating jobs for unemployed people
- that would provide a public service.
- And they decided that they would contract out,
- to nonprofit organizations, funds to hire people
- to do various types of jobs.
- And initially what they decided was that since they did not
- want to administer all of that money,
- they asked the United Way, which I believe at the time
- was probably called the United Community Chest--
- I can't recall for sure--
- but what we would call today the United Way to administer this.
- And they solicited applications from a variety
- of nonprofit organizations throughout the city
- to request workers and to tell them
- what those workers would do, of course, as a public service
- and to employ them.
- And the United Way got responses from numerous organizations.
- They had approximately enough money
- for about one hundred jobs.
- The average wage at that time would
- have been between five and ten thousand dollars, maximum
- ten thousand dollars.
- And it happened-- the Gay Alliance took the opportunity,
- as a nonprofit organization, to put an application in to hire
- three people to serve with the--
- to do outreach work and to provide services
- for gay people in the community.
- And when the United Way reviewed those applications,
- they accepted and included the Gay Alliance
- as one of those organizations.
- The contract from the city required
- them to go back to City Council to have
- the final selection of the organizations
- and the final contract to be approved by City Council.
- So in other words, there had to be a public forum
- and a public approval of that.
- And when the word got out that the Gay Alliance was included
- in that package of I'm not sure how many organizations,
- but numerous organizations to receive, essentially,
- the funds to hire people, it created quite an uproar,
- particularly with some of the more conservative
- religious organizations.
- And one church in particular, who unfortunately,
- the actual name of the church I don't recall now,
- was particularly active in opposing that.
- So they appeared at City Council and created quite an uproar.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
- We've got a ringer.
- That one cart.
- EVELYN BAILEY: One what?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Cart.
- BETTY DWYER: It has bells on it, huh?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sounds like he's got a load of glasses on it.
- Probably getting ready for some big party.
- OK, let's pick it up from when word got out that the Gay
- Alliance was included.
- BETTY DWYER: Right.
- When people began to understand that the Gay Alliance was
- included, there was quite an uproar, the most public uproar,
- of course, by the conservative religious organizations,
- or least one church in particular,
- a fundamentalist church, who appeared before City Council
- when the approval was to be granted for the contract.
- I was not personally there.
- I believe probably what happened was
- that they tabled the whole thing given the uproar.
- And the next morning, the United Way,
- being particularly sensitive about that kind
- of political issue, announced to the community through the media
- that it had decided that it would prefer
- not to manage this contract.
- They were getting calls from people threatening
- to withdraw their support and their contributions
- to the United Way, and they clearly
- felt that they couldn't afford to be
- at the forefront of that kind of a project
- or that kind of controversial issue.
- So they just dropped the ball completely
- and left-- essentially left City Council with the hot issue
- in their hands.
- At the time, I was not personally
- active in the Gay Alliance.
- And I had been interviewed and was
- going to work for the United Way to help administer the program.
- But obviously, when they dropped the program,
- that was the end of my potential job with them
- and running it or assisting to run it.
- I was not being hired as a manager.
- And I was not out as a lesbian.
- Nobody in the community-- although,
- I worked in the community for many years--
- was particularly aware that I was gay.
- So at that time what happened was that Bill Johnson, who
- was then the head of the Urban League of Rochester,
- I think probably saw that there was an opportunity
- to talk to the city about a contract-- about the contract
- and to get a major contract for the Urban League,
- really, to run this employment program, which
- of course, was very significant for the minority community too.
- Because unemployment is particularly
- high among black and Latino people.
- So he moved in.
- He talked to the city, and the city began to essentially,
- I guess, agree to consider the Urban League for the contract.
- I, in the meantime, just kind of followed
- this in the newspapers.
- And having had some affiliation with the Urban League
- in the past and knowing Bill Johnson and some other people
- who were there in particular, just
- let them know that I was interested in possibly
- working on that project.
- And in the end, got hired to manage the project.
- So it was kind of an interesting position
- to be in at that point.
- Should I just continue?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- I'm just going to go back just a little bit,
- just so we can hit some of those key points in there.
- Can you tell me-- talk to me a little bit
- briefly about hearing the news for the first time
- that the United Way was going to step away from the contract.
- Do you remember when and where you actually heard that?
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, absolutely.
- I heard on the news in the evening of city--
- that the City Council had met, of course,
- that all this uproar had occurred at City Council
- and that people had come down.
- And there was weeping and gnashing of teeth,
- and the world was going to come to the end, of course,
- because gay people were going to somehow promulgate
- their lifestyle among all the poor people of the world.
- So I was quite curious, because I
- was expecting that the City Council was going
- to approve that contract on like a Thursday night,
- and I was going to start work on Monday.
- And clearly, that was tabled.
- And so I thought, well, I'll just go down--
- go down to the United Way and see what's going on.
- So I physically drove down and went into the offices
- of the United Way to see--
- not the director, the president, or whatever the executive
- of the United Way himself speaking, but actually
- an African-American woman who was then
- the assistant, his assistant, setting up the microphones
- and in the process of announcing to the press
- that the United Way was not going
- to continue with this contract.
- So I heard the announcement at the United Way offices
- themselves among the media and the microphones and whatnot.
- And they just made it clear.
- They made comments about people calling in and saying
- that they would withdraw their pledges of support
- to the United Way and that this just wasn't something
- that they could manage.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, now this was significant for you
- because you were slated to start a new job along
- with this contract.
- BETTY DWYER: Exactly.
- I mean, I had been interviewed by the person who
- they had already actually hired at the United Way
- to manage this contract.
- And I guess, whether they had gotten some preliminary funds
- from the city to do the reading of the selection
- of the applicants and whatnot, anyway, I
- had been interviewed by the person who
- had been hired by the United Way,
- was already on board to manage the contract.
- I had worked for twenty years-- or no, the previous ten years,
- I had worked in the community for Action
- for a Better Community and had run the neighborhood center.
- And so I was very familiar with most
- of the non-profits and neighborhood-based
- organizations in the city.
- So he was hiring me really to get that kind of experience
- I think.
- And he had no discussion at that time about who
- was applying or--
- I had no idea that anything was going
- to happen in reference to the Gay Alliance.
- But I was looking for a job, and he had job to offer.
- So yeah, I was-- it put me back on the job market
- is what it did.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And Bill picked you up, right?
- BETTY DWYER: Yup.
- I was interviewed by Jeff Carlson, actually,
- who was the deputy to Bill Johnson, who was the head of--
- So I never spoke directly to Bill about the job.
- I did speak to Jeff.
- Like I say, at the time, I was not out.
- Nobody was particularly aware that--
- to my knowledge, anyway--
- that I was a lesbian.
- And I made sure--
- I was very concerned that I not walk into a position
- where deals had been made and that had already
- been decided that we could--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
- It's an important point, and I want to make sure we get it.
- OK.
- Let's pick it up a little back about your concerns
- about walking into a job without any kind of political bindings
- or whatever.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, when I spoke to Jeff Carlson--
- who I had previously known too, and he knew-- did know me--
- I was concerned that, and not at all interested
- in, taking a job where any kind of deals
- had been made to take the heat off
- of everybody around this issue.
- I was not an out lesbian, but I was a lesbian.
- And I was not about to be a party to anything that
- was going to be detrimental to the gay community.
- So I very openly and clearly asked Jeff
- if, in fact, there had been any agreements with City Council
- in the process of negotiating for this contract
- about excluding the Gay Alliance or dealing.
- And he assured me that there absolutely was not,
- that the agreement with the city was that the Urban League would
- assume the responsibility of re-reviewing,
- that any of the work that was done by the United Way was
- past, and we had no interest in what they're--
- the way they had selected or not selected applicants and that
- we would put together our own process of review and selection
- of proposals that were submitted and that the Gay Alliance would
- be included and reviewed according
- to the same criteria that everybody else was
- and that there were no deals that had been made.
- So based on that information and those assurances,
- I said I was certainly ready to manage the contract, which
- was a different position than what I would
- have had with the United Way.
- I would have been an assistant there.
- At the Urban League, they were hiring me as the manager.
- So that along with my responsibilities
- for the overall management, once the applications
- were agreed to, I would be the primary person
- to develop the criteria by which the applications would
- be judged and the process that they would
- be judged and oversee the whole nine yards, which
- was attractive to me.
- Because it, therefore, put me in a position
- to have some influence in terms of defining the criteria
- and overseeing the process and assuring
- that the process was fair.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- There were times when you and Bill
- had to attend City Council meetings that weren't always
- so nice.
- There were some things said during City Council meetings
- people, from the public that were, in my opinion,
- were pretty downright offensive.
- But a lot of strong reactions from the community.
- Can you talk to me about some of those experiences
- and some of the things that maybe people
- were saying in regards to, again, the Gay Alliance being
- involved in this contract and those kind of things.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, the controversy
- over the issue of the Gay Alliance being involved in this
- and receiving federal funds certainly
- didn't go away once the United Way backed out of this.
- It was tempered, certainly, the first--
- under the first contract, because it didn't have to go
- through all of the processes.
- And I can't recall exactly how the final contract
- with the Urban League was approved.
- But the way it was done just didn't
- trigger the same kind of public demonstrations
- and whatnot for that first contract.
- But the contract was only a twelve-month contract.
- So of course, you were going to have
- to go through this whole process again in twelve months, which
- I was quite aware of throughout the period
- that that would happen.
- And so I really tried to make sure--
- because of course, the Gay Alliance was accepted
- as an applicant, and three jobs were assigned to the Alliance.
- And we had to be particularly concerned, of course,
- that at any time, there could be some sort of public issue
- that would come up.
- So that's just part of the territory, so to speak.
- But the second year, when we had to go
- back again for the renewal of the contract and had--
- and the Alliance again was going to be included in the contract,
- and of course, the public knew it was coming up,
- which gave the churches that were particularly
- vehement about this issue time to organize.
- And we had to go through the committee process of city,
- as well as the general Council meeting.
- And for whatever reason, they had it
- in the personnel committee, as I recall.
- And in Chuck Schiano was the Republican--
- only sole Republican representative on City Council
- at the time.
- And he was kind of the champion of the anti-gay forces
- of the community.
- So we had to appear at that personnel committee meeting.
- And much to Bill's credit, Bill Johnson's credit, really,
- I think-- because I think he could have avoided it if he had
- chosen to--
- he did appear before the committee.
- The two of us appeared before the committee.
- And of course, they allowed public comment.
- And the public appeared with all of their dire predictions
- of the world being corrupted by the gays and et cetera.
- And interestingly enough, it was quite an experience for me
- in relationship to Bill Johnson, because one of the people who
- came up to speak most vehemently against the gay community was
- speaking to Ruth Scott, who was an African-American woman,
- who was then--
- she was chairing the committee.
- I can't recall whether she was chairing Council at the point
- or not.
- At one point she was.
- A very together woman and very respected.
- And as he spoke to her he said, well,
- in the immorality of the gay lifestyle and gay people
- and how we're going to burn in hell and whatnot,
- he kind of said to her around this issue of sexual morality,
- "Well, you understand."
- And everybody just kind of stopped.
- I mean he was--
- his insinuations about what Ruth Scott
- might know about sexual immorality was just stunning.
- And at that moment, really, as I was
- sitting next to Bill Johnson, of course,
- an African-American man, great fighter for the rights
- of African-Americans, I could feel
- the light go on in his head.
- I could feel that the connection was there,
- that this was no different, that what this man was talking about
- was the same.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And ultimately, you
- got another second year of funding, right?
- BETTY DWYER: We did.
- We had to go to City Council.
- Of course, the worst part of it wasn't the committee.
- Then, you had to go to City Council, which of course, is
- in City Council chambers.
- And that was my experience.
- And I would say in all of my years, seventy of them
- now, that I have never experienced the level of hatred
- that was openly expressed by just what appeared
- to be very average people, working class people, probably,
- who had their children with them and were sitting in City
- Council chambers just expressing the most outrageous
- and the most deeply felt levels of contempt and hatred.
- Really shocking to me, and I had been active in the civil rights
- movement for many years, both for the black community
- in town, with the Latino community.
- And it was a level of--
- that I thank heavens, really--
- I've never personally experienced with a group again.
- It scares me.
- It really scares me these days, because obviously, it
- has not disappeared.
- It's obviously still very prevalent
- in many people and groups.
- But I just personally haven't been in the--
- a group of people surrounded by a group of people,
- actually, who were scary, really scary.
- And I had to really admire the representatives from the Gay
- Alliance who went to that meeting.
- It was a small group who were there to speak.
- And they did speak and took all of that venom and hatred.
- And I think it probably shocked--
- I think it probably shook up a number of the City Council
- members to see that kind of expression.
- I think when people do that, there is a--
- it can be shocking to other people
- who don't normally experience that, not
- in their own religious congregations or whatever.
- So it was a pretty scary evening in the sense that there--
- and I'm sure they had brought several busloads of people in.
- People were being led, of course,
- by the particular-- by this pastor, who
- I guess preached love and goodness on Sundays to them,
- and there they were expressing their hatred.
- But we knew that it would pass.
- It was supported by the majority of City Council.
- So it's kind of a process that had to be gone through,
- that's all.
- It's what our democratic process calls for.
- So it was approved, and we managed the project again
- for another twelve months.
- And then, in their wisdom, I think, that City Council really
- didn't want to have to go through that again.
- So rather than have to say, no, we can't deal with gays,
- and we can't deal with this issue,
- they decided that that type of employment program
- wasn't still--
- it wasn't the best way to approach the employment issue.
- And so they did a new energy conservation program,
- which just took the issue of the table.
- But by that time, we had gone through two years.
- The world hadn't crashed.
- Everybody on the street hadn't become gay.
- And so I think it really did have
- a significant impact on the community at large watching
- the whole process go on.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: In speaking with you,
- it's obvious that you have a great deal of respect for Bill
- in stepping up to take this challenge,
- not being afraid to take this challenge on.
- Obviously, there was some incentive for him to do that.
- There was money involved, particularly
- for his organization, Urban League.
- It was a great opportunity for the organization.
- But it seems like it became more than that for him, particularly
- after that City Council meeting.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- To be perfectly honest, we never discussed it.
- I never discussed it with him.
- At that time, I still was not openly gay.
- I believe that by the time I left employment
- with the Urban League, which was a number of years later--
- I worked for the organization for over ten years.
- I ran you know the employment and training program division,
- and it enlarged.
- And so I was there for a long time.
- We never discussed it.
- I think that because I did have a partner,
- I lived with my partner--
- I remember having a party at my house that Bill came to.
- And my guess is is that the lights went on in his head
- at that stage.
- And so who knows how people think then?
- I don't know if they go back and reconstruct
- history and everything else and think, oh, my heavens,
- what was going on?
- But it was a very striking experience,
- as I mentioned, at that committee meeting.
- Now, how much that impacted him in the future
- or his future political life and whatnot, I really can't say.
- Because obviously, he was prepared and never in any way
- interfered with what was going on
- or tried to dictate in any way how we set up
- criteria for the Gay Alliance.
- He did not use his authority to try and eliminate
- issues and problems, because I'm sure as he--
- I have heard him say since--
- that he had to take a lot of flack from black churches.
- And black churches are big supporters of the Urban League.
- The Urban League is a membership organization.
- They do a big membership drive every year.
- And their primary contributors, of course,
- were from the black community, and so a lot
- of that membership drive had to go through the black churches.
- So it's very important, his relationship
- with the ministers and the pastors
- there, who are not exactly the greatest
- supporters of gay rights--
- or many of them.
- I shouldn't and can't say all.
- Although, I didn't feel as much--
- I didn't feel as strongly that way then as I do today.
- Today, there appears to be a much more
- vociferous and stronger voice out of many
- of the African-American churches that are anti-gay, which
- I did not feel in those days.
- They were not coming down to City Hall.
- It was not black congregations that were coming down
- to oppose that.
- They were all white congregations.
- So it's a little hard to judge where--
- I think he was open.
- He's a fair and open man, and I have
- a lot of respect for his integrity and his fairness.
- I just think that at that particular time,
- he really saw that what was going on
- was the same kind of thing.
- And hopefully, it really helped in his development
- in terms of his future attitudes around political issues.
- I wouldn't doubt his support.
- And I just respect him and say he was--
- I worked with him for many years,
- and I respect his intelligence.
- I respect his integrity and his commitment.
- He could have gone--
- when Governor Cuomo was elected governor of New York state
- years ago, he could have been in Albany in a flash.
- He was very committed to this community,
- and he stayed in this community.
- If he had been really out for pure personal advancement--
- and as far as the organization goes,
- the organization had had some very difficult times.
- I had been on the Urban League's board in the early seventies--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, hold that.
- Jesus Christ.
- OK.
- Actually, we can just go to the next question here.
- Because I want to move to--
- you eventually become active with the Gay Alliance.
- You got on their board.
- Talk to me a little bit about that personal decision
- that you made.
- Why?
- Why get involved with the Gay Alliance to the point
- where you actually were sitting on their board?
- BETTY DWYER: Well, now we push forward about ten years.
- So it was when I had--
- I just left the Urban League.
- I had a kind of personal policy of working
- for an organization for ten years
- and then leaving and taking some time
- and deciding what other kind of direction
- I might want to go in.
- So we're up to like 1986, 1987.
- And at that stage, I made--
- I was changing jobs.
- There was personal things going on in my own personal life.
- And I just said to myself, well, it's
- time to step up and do something.
- People have been fighting the good fight for years.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna stop you just for a second.
- We're gonna pick up on this, but it just dawned on me
- another question that I should've
- asked you before this because I think it's a fun little story.
- There was some point--
- I think maybe in that second year of evaluation--
- where maybe it was Schiano that wanted
- to see all receipts, books of where the money was going.
- Tell me that story and tell me how you handled it.
- BETTY DWYER: OK.
- Well, I mentioned that we had to appear before this Personnel
- Committee of City Council, which is the regular process.
- Things have to go to committee, and then committee
- makes recommendations to the Council.
- And then, the Council acts.
- So we had to go and appear before the committee first.
- And Schiano, was, like I said, being champion
- of the anti-Alliance people.
- So one of the big things that they had said
- is that none of this money could go for supporting
- the Empty Closet.
- Any promotional-- because of course, we were portrayed,
- or the Gay Alliance was portrayed,
- as really wanting to go out and recruit people to be gay.
- And so they didn't want this used for any recruitment
- purposes, which the publication of a newspaper was considered
- recruitment.
- So Mr. Schiano said that he wanted
- to see where all the money had been spent.
- Now, we're talking probably about--
- I think their contract was probably about thirty thousand
- dollars or thirty-five thousand dollars maybe, for--
- almost all of it going purely to salaries.
- It was just a small amount that could
- go to office supplies or mileage or something like that.
- So he said, OK.
- I had been a fanatic as a manager
- about keeping track of the money.
- And we structured the thing in such a way
- that each organization had an actual contract.
- And we reimburse them for their expenses.
- But to reimburse them, they had to provide us
- all of the documentation for the expenditures.
- So I said "OK, Mr. Schiano wants to see
- the financial information?
- We'll give him the financial information,
- and we'll give everybody the financial information."
- So we literally duplicated every receipt
- for every penny that had been spent,
- whether it was five dollars or whatever, which fortunately,
- for us, ended up being a stack of material about this high.
- And we assured them that we would provide them
- this material at City Council meeting.
- So if anybody has ever gone to a City Council meeting
- and you see people up there shuffling papers and everything
- else, to all of a sudden distribute a stack of material
- about a foot high or as close as we could get to a foot
- as we could, what do they do with it?
- You've got people.
- You've got all this commotion.
- People are coming in on buses.
- You have a certain amount of time at the mic.
- And everybody wants to get home before three o'clock
- in the morning.
- And so it really becomes useless.
- Not that we had anything to hide,
- but there probably had been something
- that somebody could wildly connect with the Empty Closet.
- So of course, he was-- they were all
- just overwhelmed with the information.
- And it was useless and kind of stymied
- going into three hours of how much of this paper
- was used to reproduce the Empty Closet.
- And very little of it probably was anyway, so.
- But that pretty much cut that piece of the problem out.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And didn't he actually go through some of it
- and question some of it?
- BETTY DWYER: Oh, he did.
- He tried to connect something with--
- he was valiantly trying to connect something
- with our failure to prevent people
- from using it for the Empty Closet,
- but it didn't get-- he didn't get too far with it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So let's jump forward a bit.
- You're on the board of the GAGV.
- Just talk to me a little bit about the environment
- back then, about being on board with the GAGV.
- What were the kind of things that were
- being done in the community?
- BETTY DWYER: Well, when I first went on the board,
- we were still on Monroe Avenue with the co-op building,
- which of course, everybody recalls.
- You had to walk by the garbage cans--
- down the alley and by the garbage cans and up the
- steps in order to get into the room.
- So the room was fine, but symbolically it
- wasn't the greatest location.
- And it wasn't large enough, really,
- to accommodate what was going on.
- So Claire Parker, of course, was really
- involved with the Alliance at the time.
- Claire had actually worked at the Urban League with me,
- and she had been the monitor for the contract
- with the Gay Alliance.
- It was important to me to be sure
- that whoever was going to be working with the Alliance was
- going to be friendly and helpful and not
- somebody who was going to hassle or give them a hard time.
- So fortunately at the time, Claire
- happened to be looking for a job.
- And I didn't know her prior to that.
- But she did a really good job there.
- So at that time is when the proposals
- were beginning to come out to look for another location.
- Or they probably had been coming out for some time,
- but we were ready to really try and put that into motion.
- So that was the primary project that we initially
- got involved in was the building and purchasing the building
- and being able to raise the funds that
- were needed initially and then gradually, to raise funds
- to do what improvements-- some improvements that
- had to be made to the building, deal
- with the city around the issue of tax-exempt status,
- which they tried to hit us with taxes.
- And so we had to get into that issue.
- And so that was--
- I became treasurer of the board, so I
- was used to watching the money in an organization
- and nonprofit organizations as managers.
- So I really focused most of my energy that way.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk about the tax incident
- with the city.
- Kind of walk me through that story.
- You bought the building.
- You're a nonprofit organization.
- Yet, the city is still claiming that you're not
- exempt from taxes and then, I think basically,
- you had to go to court, right?
- BETTY DWYER: Right.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, walk me through that story.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, well, we got the building.
- And we totally assumed, there was never any
- thought about the--
- possibly having to pay property taxes for the building.
- But lo and behold, as soon as we got the building,
- the city said that we were--
- I can't even remember how the communication
- came, whether they just sent us a tax bill.
- But anyway, we became pretty quickly aware of the fact
- that the city wanted to charge us
- property taxes, which to me, just seemed totally absurd.
- I had worked for Action for a Better Community for ten years.
- I had been around when Ibero-American Action
- League was actually formed.
- And I had worked for the Urban League.
- And I knew darn well none of these organizations
- paid any property taxes.
- Not all of them owned property, but it wasn't even
- a thought as far as I was concerned, that it shouldn't
- be tax exempt.
- So what we said is hey, why should we be paying taxes?
- We're a 501(c)(3) corporation, which is a tax-exempt
- corporation, a charitable organization.
- And we shouldn't have to pay taxes.
- Well, city said they disagreed.
- So we said, hey, let's go to court.
- The city had recently lost a big court case around taxes,
- property taxes, to businesses.
- And I just totally associated the Gay Alliance as an advocacy
- organization.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Let's pick it up there.
- CREW: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's pick it up where
- the city disagreed with you.
- BETTY DWYER: So the city disagreed.
- They said that we needed to pay property taxes,
- that there was no basis for us to have property tax exemption.
- I certainly wasn't a lawyer.
- And I certainly wasn't someone who
- was up on all of the details.
- But to me, it just seemed obvious
- that the Gay Alliance was an organization very much
- like the Urban League or Ibero-American Action League.
- They were advocating for the rights--
- primarily, the Urban League was, for the rights
- of African-Americans.
- The Ibero-American League was set up primarily
- as an advocacy organization for the Latino community.
- And we were an advocacy organization
- for the gay people.
- What difference is there in the terms of the law?
- So we decided we would go to court over it.
- And one of the things that I suggested-- and of course,
- Ellen Yacknin was involved with the Alliance at the time--
- I can't really recall whether she was actually a board member
- or not-- but an attorney.
- And so she said that she would be willing to take the case.
- My suggestion was, hey, let's--
- to me, it's comparable.
- Let's compare ourselves there.
- Now, to what extent she used that in her--
- her arguments in court, I can't recall.
- But it did go to court.
- She certainly did appear, and we won the case.
- To this day, I just, in my mind, I
- don't see how anybody could justify.
- Although, in my mind now--
- because I did development for Ibero-American Action League
- in my last job--
- I do understand that there are reasons that some--
- and I might even argue at this point,
- particularly with churches, that they should pay property taxes.
- But if we're saying apples and apples and equality
- and fairness, yeah, there is no-- there
- was no basis in my mind for them to be able to charge us
- property taxes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you recall anything specifically
- in the city's language or response to you?
- Exactly what was their argument?
- BETTY DWYER: We met with Mr. Cash.
- Lou Cash was then the corporation counsel
- for the city.
- And we met with him at City Hall.
- And I can honestly say I could never
- understand what their basis was and what their justification
- was for applying the taxes.
- We spoke to him.
- I don't remember that much what the conversation was about
- or what he said.
- The only recollection I have-- or my clearest recollection
- is that we left the meeting with him saying
- that he would get back to us.
- Now, somebody mentioned something.
- I think Evelyn mentioned something about--
- he claimed that it was the mayor who was insisting on this.
- I believe Tom Ryan was mayor at that time.
- I find that kind of difficult to believe.
- And if he told us that at the meeting,
- I would have found it difficult to believe
- and would have been perfectly happy if he said, "Well,
- I'm going to go and talk to the mayor,
- and we'll get back to you about this."
- He was supposed to get back to us.
- He never did.
- He never did, and it went on--
- it went on to court.
- And he lost, and we won.
- And I don't remember the circumstances.
- But I'm sure that there was a time later
- when it was raised without my knowledge.
- And he publicly claimed that I had not
- followed through on something.
- Well, I wasn't there to defend myself,
- and I don't have to defend myself.
- He was supposed to get back to us.
- The man lost the case, and we won it.
- And it was right.
- They didn't have a basis.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: God, I would love
- to be a fly on the wall between Tom and Lou
- after that court case, their meeting together.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
- If it was.
- For all I know, it could have been just a side step.
- I don't take anything for granted
- when it comes to what he may have--
- what his motivations were.
- I don't even know that.
- It was little to no money.
- We did not have a Taj Mahal to charge property taxes for.
- It was just a little building on Atlantic Avenue
- that we paid, what, seventy, ninety thousand dollars for,
- something like that.
- How much property taxes did it represent?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Somebody had a chip on their shoulder.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, it was strange.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Considering your involvement
- with the gay community, whether it
- was the CETA funding and the issues that
- came with that or eventually becoming involved with the Gay
- Alliance board and the city property tax issue
- and whatever else after that, how
- do you want history to reflect upon you in
- regards to what you've contributed
- for the gay community?
- What do you want them to note most about you?
- More importantly, what are you most proud of?
- BETTY DWYER: Oh, I'm most proud of the--
- managing the CETA project.
- I did it very consciously, very deliberately
- to assure the community of some help.
- And I succeeded I think.
- And I think it did mean something.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that was gonna
- be my next question-- the significance of it
- for the community as a whole.
- BETTY DWYER: Well, I think when you're
- fighting the fight of civil rights, whoever it is, whatever
- group, and you have this fear factor out
- there that people are--
- it's kind of they don't understand, they don't know,
- and they're taught to be afraid--
- that the only way you begin to break that down
- is by little steps, step by step.
- Supposedly, hiring three people by the Gay Alliance
- was going to be this big threat to the county of Monroe.
- The gays were going to be on the loose and taking over.
- We laugh, and it's absurd.
- But weirdly enough, it whatever--
- and the most extreme people, the most frightened people,
- the ones that lash out with such hate and fear,
- really, they are the extreme.
- But there's all these other levels
- hiding away, even among those who feel the most enlightened.
- And so it isn't until things happen
- that start to break that down.
- What in the world happened?
- Nothing happened, except that, hopefully,
- a few gay people maybe got a few benefits
- from a few people working.
- So that begins, I think-- it's a long fight.
- When the fears are that deep and people are so scared of things,
- we're scared of them ourselves.
- It gives courage.
- It gives courage to the community
- too that we can go out and do things, and we can be open.
- It gives courage to people that come out.
- And that whole process and watching the process having
- gone on-- now I've watched it for forty years--
- that's the way it happens, little by little.
- And people do what they can do from where they are.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: In regards to still fighting the good fight
- or trying to overcome the challenges that still lie
- ahead, what advice would you be giving to our younger
- generations, younger generations of gays and lesbians,
- and what they should be doing for themselves
- but doing-- also doing for the community?
- BETTY DWYER: I don't know.
- It's tough.
- We love to give advice at this stage of our lives,
- but sometimes, it's a little--
- it's a little tough to know.
- But like I say, I think each individual, first of all,
- has to deal with their own selves, their own--
- and being true to themself and handling their lives as openly
- and honestly as they can for themselves
- and people around them.
- And certainly, people being out and open
- has been the greatest transformation, I think.
- Because again, people have to see people that they know
- and that aren't the stereotypical whatever
- they have in their mind.
- So on a very-- you have to deal-- and every gay person
- today, as well as in the past, I think,
- has to deal with their own personal journey
- and being open and honest with themselves and with family,
- friends, loved ones, coworkers, whoever.
- So that's the one level.
- And then the other level is I think we all
- do have an obligation to contribute
- what we can to the movement forward of the whole community.
- That's really every community.
- That's the community we live in, which is
- gay people and non-gay people.
- I was at a talk last night out at RIT around--
- from a gentleman who's working in Brazil
- reconciliation and conflict.
- And I think we all have an obligation
- as part of a community to try and contribute
- to the progress of that community in the best ways
- that we can.
- So whether it's joining as a member
- or contributing or giving volunteer time or taking--
- everybody has to look for their way to be able to do it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- Well, thank you.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, you're welcome
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Pleasure.
- BETTY DWYER: Yeah, it's been--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Brian will get that microphone off of you.