Video Interview, Betty Dwyer, August 16, 2012

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Get into this.
  • Just think of it as a one-on-one conversation between the two
  • of us--
  • no camera, no lights, none of that stuff.
  • If you get lost, if you lose your train
  • of thought or stumble or something, just stop.
  • Let me try that again, answer it again.
  • The audience is not gonna hear me and my questions to you.
  • BETTY DWYER: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK?
  • So if you could somehow set up your responses that
  • incorporates my question into your response-- you know,
  • Betty, tell me about you coming into the city today.
  • Well, when I was driving into the city today, I--
  • BETTY DWYER: Um-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That kind of thing.
  • CREW: And we may, just because there's a hallway,
  • we may have to stop because someone's walking--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible) yeah.
  • And I'm--
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Have you had to do that?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, just once or twice when
  • the caterers were coming through with their squeaky carts.
  • But for the most part, it's been pretty quiet.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: Good.
  • CREW: I'm rolling.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We're rolling?
  • OK.
  • First of all, Betty, when we put your name on screen,
  • can you give me the correct spelling of your first
  • and last name of how you would like it to appear?
  • BETTY DWYER: Alright.
  • Sure.
  • B-E-T-T-Y. D-W-Y-E-R.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: There's two points of interest
  • that I really want to focus in on with you.
  • One is the CETA funding and then later on, GAGV
  • and their fights with the city.
  • So let's just kind of focus on the CETA funding thing first.
  • Can you describe for me, as though I've never
  • heard of CETA funding before, what is it?
  • And how did the Gay Alliance get involved with it?
  • BETTY DWYER: OK.
  • OK.
  • In the late seventies, there were serious economic problems,
  • and employment, or lack thereof, was a major issue.
  • So the federal government instituted
  • a program called the Concentrated Employment
  • and Training Program, then becoming known as CETA.
  • And it made funds available to localities, cities,
  • municipalities to hire people who
  • were unemployed to work in a public service capacity.
  • And so the city of Rochester, of course,
  • was always on top of trying to get whatever assistance
  • it could.
  • And it got funds.
  • And it decided to designate one million dollars of those funds,
  • or approximately one million dollars
  • in creating jobs for unemployed people
  • that would provide a public service.
  • And they decided that they would contract out,
  • to nonprofit organizations, funds to hire people
  • to do various types of jobs.
  • And initially what they decided was that since they did not
  • want to administer all of that money,
  • they asked the United Way, which I believe at the time
  • was probably called the United Community Chest--
  • I can't recall for sure--
  • but what we would call today the United Way to administer this.
  • And they solicited applications from a variety
  • of nonprofit organizations throughout the city
  • to request workers and to tell them
  • what those workers would do, of course, as a public service
  • and to employ them.
  • And the United Way got responses from numerous organizations.
  • They had approximately enough money
  • for about one hundred jobs.
  • The average wage at that time would
  • have been between five and ten thousand dollars, maximum
  • ten thousand dollars.
  • And it happened-- the Gay Alliance took the opportunity,
  • as a nonprofit organization, to put an application in to hire
  • three people to serve with the--
  • to do outreach work and to provide services
  • for gay people in the community.
  • And when the United Way reviewed those applications,
  • they accepted and included the Gay Alliance
  • as one of those organizations.
  • The contract from the city required
  • them to go back to City Council to have
  • the final selection of the organizations
  • and the final contract to be approved by City Council.
  • So in other words, there had to be a public forum
  • and a public approval of that.
  • And when the word got out that the Gay Alliance was included
  • in that package of I'm not sure how many organizations,
  • but numerous organizations to receive, essentially,
  • the funds to hire people, it created quite an uproar,
  • particularly with some of the more conservative
  • religious organizations.
  • And one church in particular, who unfortunately,
  • the actual name of the church I don't recall now,
  • was particularly active in opposing that.
  • So they appeared at City Council and created quite an uproar.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
  • We've got a ringer.
  • That one cart.
  • EVELYN BAILEY: One what?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Cart.
  • BETTY DWYER: It has bells on it, huh?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sounds like he's got a load of glasses on it.
  • Probably getting ready for some big party.
  • OK, let's pick it up from when word got out that the Gay
  • Alliance was included.
  • BETTY DWYER: Right.
  • When people began to understand that the Gay Alliance was
  • included, there was quite an uproar, the most public uproar,
  • of course, by the conservative religious organizations,
  • or least one church in particular,
  • a fundamentalist church, who appeared before City Council
  • when the approval was to be granted for the contract.
  • I was not personally there.
  • I believe probably what happened was
  • that they tabled the whole thing given the uproar.
  • And the next morning, the United Way,
  • being particularly sensitive about that kind
  • of political issue, announced to the community through the media
  • that it had decided that it would prefer
  • not to manage this contract.
  • They were getting calls from people threatening
  • to withdraw their support and their contributions
  • to the United Way, and they clearly
  • felt that they couldn't afford to be
  • at the forefront of that kind of a project
  • or that kind of controversial issue.
  • So they just dropped the ball completely
  • and left-- essentially left City Council with the hot issue
  • in their hands.
  • At the time, I was not personally
  • active in the Gay Alliance.
  • And I had been interviewed and was
  • going to work for the United Way to help administer the program.
  • But obviously, when they dropped the program,
  • that was the end of my potential job with them
  • and running it or assisting to run it.
  • I was not being hired as a manager.
  • And I was not out as a lesbian.
  • Nobody in the community-- although,
  • I worked in the community for many years--
  • was particularly aware that I was gay.
  • So at that time what happened was that Bill Johnson, who
  • was then the head of the Urban League of Rochester,
  • I think probably saw that there was an opportunity
  • to talk to the city about a contract-- about the contract
  • and to get a major contract for the Urban League,
  • really, to run this employment program, which
  • of course, was very significant for the minority community too.
  • Because unemployment is particularly
  • high among black and Latino people.
  • So he moved in.
  • He talked to the city, and the city began to essentially,
  • I guess, agree to consider the Urban League for the contract.
  • I, in the meantime, just kind of followed
  • this in the newspapers.
  • And having had some affiliation with the Urban League
  • in the past and knowing Bill Johnson and some other people
  • who were there in particular, just
  • let them know that I was interested in possibly
  • working on that project.
  • And in the end, got hired to manage the project.
  • So it was kind of an interesting position
  • to be in at that point.
  • Should I just continue?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • I'm just going to go back just a little bit,
  • just so we can hit some of those key points in there.
  • Can you tell me-- talk to me a little bit
  • briefly about hearing the news for the first time
  • that the United Way was going to step away from the contract.
  • Do you remember when and where you actually heard that?
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah, absolutely.
  • I heard on the news in the evening of city--
  • that the City Council had met, of course,
  • that all this uproar had occurred at City Council
  • and that people had come down.
  • And there was weeping and gnashing of teeth,
  • and the world was going to come to the end, of course,
  • because gay people were going to somehow promulgate
  • their lifestyle among all the poor people of the world.
  • So I was quite curious, because I
  • was expecting that the City Council was going
  • to approve that contract on like a Thursday night,
  • and I was going to start work on Monday.
  • And clearly, that was tabled.
  • And so I thought, well, I'll just go down--
  • go down to the United Way and see what's going on.
  • So I physically drove down and went into the offices
  • of the United Way to see--
  • not the director, the president, or whatever the executive
  • of the United Way himself speaking, but actually
  • an African-American woman who was then
  • the assistant, his assistant, setting up the microphones
  • and in the process of announcing to the press
  • that the United Way was not going
  • to continue with this contract.
  • So I heard the announcement at the United Way offices
  • themselves among the media and the microphones and whatnot.
  • And they just made it clear.
  • They made comments about people calling in and saying
  • that they would withdraw their pledges of support
  • to the United Way and that this just wasn't something
  • that they could manage.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, now this was significant for you
  • because you were slated to start a new job along
  • with this contract.
  • BETTY DWYER: Exactly.
  • I mean, I had been interviewed by the person who
  • they had already actually hired at the United Way
  • to manage this contract.
  • And I guess, whether they had gotten some preliminary funds
  • from the city to do the reading of the selection
  • of the applicants and whatnot, anyway, I
  • had been interviewed by the person who
  • had been hired by the United Way,
  • was already on board to manage the contract.
  • I had worked for twenty years-- or no, the previous ten years,
  • I had worked in the community for Action
  • for a Better Community and had run the neighborhood center.
  • And so I was very familiar with most
  • of the non-profits and neighborhood-based
  • organizations in the city.
  • So he was hiring me really to get that kind of experience
  • I think.
  • And he had no discussion at that time about who
  • was applying or--
  • I had no idea that anything was going
  • to happen in reference to the Gay Alliance.
  • But I was looking for a job, and he had job to offer.
  • So yeah, I was-- it put me back on the job market
  • is what it did.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And Bill picked you up, right?
  • BETTY DWYER: Yup.
  • I was interviewed by Jeff Carlson, actually,
  • who was the deputy to Bill Johnson, who was the head of--
  • So I never spoke directly to Bill about the job.
  • I did speak to Jeff.
  • Like I say, at the time, I was not out.
  • Nobody was particularly aware that--
  • to my knowledge, anyway--
  • that I was a lesbian.
  • And I made sure--
  • I was very concerned that I not walk into a position
  • where deals had been made and that had already
  • been decided that we could--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
  • It's an important point, and I want to make sure we get it.
  • OK.
  • Let's pick it up a little back about your concerns
  • about walking into a job without any kind of political bindings
  • or whatever.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah, when I spoke to Jeff Carlson--
  • who I had previously known too, and he knew-- did know me--
  • I was concerned that, and not at all interested
  • in, taking a job where any kind of deals
  • had been made to take the heat off
  • of everybody around this issue.
  • I was not an out lesbian, but I was a lesbian.
  • And I was not about to be a party to anything that
  • was going to be detrimental to the gay community.
  • So I very openly and clearly asked Jeff
  • if, in fact, there had been any agreements with City Council
  • in the process of negotiating for this contract
  • about excluding the Gay Alliance or dealing.
  • And he assured me that there absolutely was not,
  • that the agreement with the city was that the Urban League would
  • assume the responsibility of re-reviewing,
  • that any of the work that was done by the United Way was
  • past, and we had no interest in what they're--
  • the way they had selected or not selected applicants and that
  • we would put together our own process of review and selection
  • of proposals that were submitted and that the Gay Alliance would
  • be included and reviewed according
  • to the same criteria that everybody else was
  • and that there were no deals that had been made.
  • So based on that information and those assurances,
  • I said I was certainly ready to manage the contract, which
  • was a different position than what I would
  • have had with the United Way.
  • I would have been an assistant there.
  • At the Urban League, they were hiring me as the manager.
  • So that along with my responsibilities
  • for the overall management, once the applications
  • were agreed to, I would be the primary person
  • to develop the criteria by which the applications would
  • be judged and the process that they would
  • be judged and oversee the whole nine yards, which
  • was attractive to me.
  • Because it, therefore, put me in a position
  • to have some influence in terms of defining the criteria
  • and overseeing the process and assuring
  • that the process was fair.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
  • There were times when you and Bill
  • had to attend City Council meetings that weren't always
  • so nice.
  • There were some things said during City Council meetings
  • people, from the public that were, in my opinion,
  • were pretty downright offensive.
  • But a lot of strong reactions from the community.
  • Can you talk to me about some of those experiences
  • and some of the things that maybe people
  • were saying in regards to, again, the Gay Alliance being
  • involved in this contract and those kind of things.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah, the controversy
  • over the issue of the Gay Alliance being involved in this
  • and receiving federal funds certainly
  • didn't go away once the United Way backed out of this.
  • It was tempered, certainly, the first--
  • under the first contract, because it didn't have to go
  • through all of the processes.
  • And I can't recall exactly how the final contract
  • with the Urban League was approved.
  • But the way it was done just didn't
  • trigger the same kind of public demonstrations
  • and whatnot for that first contract.
  • But the contract was only a twelve-month contract.
  • So of course, you were going to have
  • to go through this whole process again in twelve months, which
  • I was quite aware of throughout the period
  • that that would happen.
  • And so I really tried to make sure--
  • because of course, the Gay Alliance was accepted
  • as an applicant, and three jobs were assigned to the Alliance.
  • And we had to be particularly concerned, of course,
  • that at any time, there could be some sort of public issue
  • that would come up.
  • So that's just part of the territory, so to speak.
  • But the second year, when we had to go
  • back again for the renewal of the contract and had--
  • and the Alliance again was going to be included in the contract,
  • and of course, the public knew it was coming up,
  • which gave the churches that were particularly
  • vehement about this issue time to organize.
  • And we had to go through the committee process of city,
  • as well as the general Council meeting.
  • And for whatever reason, they had it
  • in the personnel committee, as I recall.
  • And in Chuck Schiano was the Republican--
  • only sole Republican representative on City Council
  • at the time.
  • And he was kind of the champion of the anti-gay forces
  • of the community.
  • So we had to appear at that personnel committee meeting.
  • And much to Bill's credit, Bill Johnson's credit, really,
  • I think-- because I think he could have avoided it if he had
  • chosen to--
  • he did appear before the committee.
  • The two of us appeared before the committee.
  • And of course, they allowed public comment.
  • And the public appeared with all of their dire predictions
  • of the world being corrupted by the gays and et cetera.
  • And interestingly enough, it was quite an experience for me
  • in relationship to Bill Johnson, because one of the people who
  • came up to speak most vehemently against the gay community was
  • speaking to Ruth Scott, who was an African-American woman,
  • who was then--
  • she was chairing the committee.
  • I can't recall whether she was chairing Council at the point
  • or not.
  • At one point she was.
  • A very together woman and very respected.
  • And as he spoke to her he said, well,
  • in the immorality of the gay lifestyle and gay people
  • and how we're going to burn in hell and whatnot,
  • he kind of said to her around this issue of sexual morality,
  • "Well, you understand."
  • And everybody just kind of stopped.
  • I mean he was--
  • his insinuations about what Ruth Scott
  • might know about sexual immorality was just stunning.
  • And at that moment, really, as I was
  • sitting next to Bill Johnson, of course,
  • an African-American man, great fighter for the rights
  • of African-Americans, I could feel
  • the light go on in his head.
  • I could feel that the connection was there,
  • that this was no different, that what this man was talking about
  • was the same.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And ultimately, you
  • got another second year of funding, right?
  • BETTY DWYER: We did.
  • We had to go to City Council.
  • Of course, the worst part of it wasn't the committee.
  • Then, you had to go to City Council, which of course, is
  • in City Council chambers.
  • And that was my experience.
  • And I would say in all of my years, seventy of them
  • now, that I have never experienced the level of hatred
  • that was openly expressed by just what appeared
  • to be very average people, working class people, probably,
  • who had their children with them and were sitting in City
  • Council chambers just expressing the most outrageous
  • and the most deeply felt levels of contempt and hatred.
  • Really shocking to me, and I had been active in the civil rights
  • movement for many years, both for the black community
  • in town, with the Latino community.
  • And it was a level of--
  • that I thank heavens, really--
  • I've never personally experienced with a group again.
  • It scares me.
  • It really scares me these days, because obviously, it
  • has not disappeared.
  • It's obviously still very prevalent
  • in many people and groups.
  • But I just personally haven't been in the--
  • a group of people surrounded by a group of people,
  • actually, who were scary, really scary.
  • And I had to really admire the representatives from the Gay
  • Alliance who went to that meeting.
  • It was a small group who were there to speak.
  • And they did speak and took all of that venom and hatred.
  • And I think it probably shocked--
  • I think it probably shook up a number of the City Council
  • members to see that kind of expression.
  • I think when people do that, there is a--
  • it can be shocking to other people
  • who don't normally experience that, not
  • in their own religious congregations or whatever.
  • So it was a pretty scary evening in the sense that there--
  • and I'm sure they had brought several busloads of people in.
  • People were being led, of course,
  • by the particular-- by this pastor, who
  • I guess preached love and goodness on Sundays to them,
  • and there they were expressing their hatred.
  • But we knew that it would pass.
  • It was supported by the majority of City Council.
  • So it's kind of a process that had to be gone through,
  • that's all.
  • It's what our democratic process calls for.
  • So it was approved, and we managed the project again
  • for another twelve months.
  • And then, in their wisdom, I think, that City Council really
  • didn't want to have to go through that again.
  • So rather than have to say, no, we can't deal with gays,
  • and we can't deal with this issue,
  • they decided that that type of employment program
  • wasn't still--
  • it wasn't the best way to approach the employment issue.
  • And so they did a new energy conservation program,
  • which just took the issue of the table.
  • But by that time, we had gone through two years.
  • The world hadn't crashed.
  • Everybody on the street hadn't become gay.
  • And so I think it really did have
  • a significant impact on the community at large watching
  • the whole process go on.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: In speaking with you,
  • it's obvious that you have a great deal of respect for Bill
  • in stepping up to take this challenge,
  • not being afraid to take this challenge on.
  • Obviously, there was some incentive for him to do that.
  • There was money involved, particularly
  • for his organization, Urban League.
  • It was a great opportunity for the organization.
  • But it seems like it became more than that for him, particularly
  • after that City Council meeting.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
  • To be perfectly honest, we never discussed it.
  • I never discussed it with him.
  • At that time, I still was not openly gay.
  • I believe that by the time I left employment
  • with the Urban League, which was a number of years later--
  • I worked for the organization for over ten years.
  • I ran you know the employment and training program division,
  • and it enlarged.
  • And so I was there for a long time.
  • We never discussed it.
  • I think that because I did have a partner,
  • I lived with my partner--
  • I remember having a party at my house that Bill came to.
  • And my guess is is that the lights went on in his head
  • at that stage.
  • And so who knows how people think then?
  • I don't know if they go back and reconstruct
  • history and everything else and think, oh, my heavens,
  • what was going on?
  • But it was a very striking experience,
  • as I mentioned, at that committee meeting.
  • Now, how much that impacted him in the future
  • or his future political life and whatnot, I really can't say.
  • Because obviously, he was prepared and never in any way
  • interfered with what was going on
  • or tried to dictate in any way how we set up
  • criteria for the Gay Alliance.
  • He did not use his authority to try and eliminate
  • issues and problems, because I'm sure as he--
  • I have heard him say since--
  • that he had to take a lot of flack from black churches.
  • And black churches are big supporters of the Urban League.
  • The Urban League is a membership organization.
  • They do a big membership drive every year.
  • And their primary contributors, of course,
  • were from the black community, and so a lot
  • of that membership drive had to go through the black churches.
  • So it's very important, his relationship
  • with the ministers and the pastors
  • there, who are not exactly the greatest
  • supporters of gay rights--
  • or many of them.
  • I shouldn't and can't say all.
  • Although, I didn't feel as much--
  • I didn't feel as strongly that way then as I do today.
  • Today, there appears to be a much more
  • vociferous and stronger voice out of many
  • of the African-American churches that are anti-gay, which
  • I did not feel in those days.
  • They were not coming down to City Hall.
  • It was not black congregations that were coming down
  • to oppose that.
  • They were all white congregations.
  • So it's a little hard to judge where--
  • I think he was open.
  • He's a fair and open man, and I have
  • a lot of respect for his integrity and his fairness.
  • I just think that at that particular time,
  • he really saw that what was going on
  • was the same kind of thing.
  • And hopefully, it really helped in his development
  • in terms of his future attitudes around political issues.
  • I wouldn't doubt his support.
  • And I just respect him and say he was--
  • I worked with him for many years,
  • and I respect his intelligence.
  • I respect his integrity and his commitment.
  • He could have gone--
  • when Governor Cuomo was elected governor of New York state
  • years ago, he could have been in Albany in a flash.
  • He was very committed to this community,
  • and he stayed in this community.
  • If he had been really out for pure personal advancement--
  • and as far as the organization goes,
  • the organization had had some very difficult times.
  • I had been on the Urban League's board in the early seventies--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, hold that.
  • Jesus Christ.
  • OK.
  • Actually, we can just go to the next question here.
  • Because I want to move to--
  • you eventually become active with the Gay Alliance.
  • You got on their board.
  • Talk to me a little bit about that personal decision
  • that you made.
  • Why?
  • Why get involved with the Gay Alliance to the point
  • where you actually were sitting on their board?
  • BETTY DWYER: Well, now we push forward about ten years.
  • So it was when I had--
  • I just left the Urban League.
  • I had a kind of personal policy of working
  • for an organization for ten years
  • and then leaving and taking some time
  • and deciding what other kind of direction
  • I might want to go in.
  • So we're up to like 1986, 1987.
  • And at that stage, I made--
  • I was changing jobs.
  • There was personal things going on in my own personal life.
  • And I just said to myself, well, it's
  • time to step up and do something.
  • People have been fighting the good fight for years.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm gonna stop you just for a second.
  • We're gonna pick up on this, but it just dawned on me
  • another question that I should've
  • asked you before this because I think it's a fun little story.
  • There was some point--
  • I think maybe in that second year of evaluation--
  • where maybe it was Schiano that wanted
  • to see all receipts, books of where the money was going.
  • Tell me that story and tell me how you handled it.
  • BETTY DWYER: OK.
  • Well, I mentioned that we had to appear before this Personnel
  • Committee of City Council, which is the regular process.
  • Things have to go to committee, and then committee
  • makes recommendations to the Council.
  • And then, the Council acts.
  • So we had to go and appear before the committee first.
  • And Schiano, was, like I said, being champion
  • of the anti-Alliance people.
  • So one of the big things that they had said
  • is that none of this money could go for supporting
  • the Empty Closet.
  • Any promotional-- because of course, we were portrayed,
  • or the Gay Alliance was portrayed,
  • as really wanting to go out and recruit people to be gay.
  • And so they didn't want this used for any recruitment
  • purposes, which the publication of a newspaper was considered
  • recruitment.
  • So Mr. Schiano said that he wanted
  • to see where all the money had been spent.
  • Now, we're talking probably about--
  • I think their contract was probably about thirty thousand
  • dollars or thirty-five thousand dollars maybe, for--
  • almost all of it going purely to salaries.
  • It was just a small amount that could
  • go to office supplies or mileage or something like that.
  • So he said, OK.
  • I had been a fanatic as a manager
  • about keeping track of the money.
  • And we structured the thing in such a way
  • that each organization had an actual contract.
  • And we reimburse them for their expenses.
  • But to reimburse them, they had to provide us
  • all of the documentation for the expenditures.
  • So I said "OK, Mr. Schiano wants to see
  • the financial information?
  • We'll give him the financial information,
  • and we'll give everybody the financial information."
  • So we literally duplicated every receipt
  • for every penny that had been spent,
  • whether it was five dollars or whatever, which fortunately,
  • for us, ended up being a stack of material about this high.
  • And we assured them that we would provide them
  • this material at City Council meeting.
  • So if anybody has ever gone to a City Council meeting
  • and you see people up there shuffling papers and everything
  • else, to all of a sudden distribute a stack of material
  • about a foot high or as close as we could get to a foot
  • as we could, what do they do with it?
  • You've got people.
  • You've got all this commotion.
  • People are coming in on buses.
  • You have a certain amount of time at the mic.
  • And everybody wants to get home before three o'clock
  • in the morning.
  • And so it really becomes useless.
  • Not that we had anything to hide,
  • but there probably had been something
  • that somebody could wildly connect with the Empty Closet.
  • So of course, he was-- they were all
  • just overwhelmed with the information.
  • And it was useless and kind of stymied
  • going into three hours of how much of this paper
  • was used to reproduce the Empty Closet.
  • And very little of it probably was anyway, so.
  • But that pretty much cut that piece of the problem out.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And didn't he actually go through some of it
  • and question some of it?
  • BETTY DWYER: Oh, he did.
  • He tried to connect something with--
  • he was valiantly trying to connect something
  • with our failure to prevent people
  • from using it for the Empty Closet,
  • but it didn't get-- he didn't get too far with it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • So let's jump forward a bit.
  • You're on the board of the GAGV.
  • Just talk to me a little bit about the environment
  • back then, about being on board with the GAGV.
  • What were the kind of things that were
  • being done in the community?
  • BETTY DWYER: Well, when I first went on the board,
  • we were still on Monroe Avenue with the co-op building,
  • which of course, everybody recalls.
  • You had to walk by the garbage cans--
  • down the alley and by the garbage cans and up the
  • steps in order to get into the room.
  • So the room was fine, but symbolically it
  • wasn't the greatest location.
  • And it wasn't large enough, really,
  • to accommodate what was going on.
  • So Claire Parker, of course, was really
  • involved with the Alliance at the time.
  • Claire had actually worked at the Urban League with me,
  • and she had been the monitor for the contract
  • with the Gay Alliance.
  • It was important to me to be sure
  • that whoever was going to be working with the Alliance was
  • going to be friendly and helpful and not
  • somebody who was going to hassle or give them a hard time.
  • So fortunately at the time, Claire
  • happened to be looking for a job.
  • And I didn't know her prior to that.
  • But she did a really good job there.
  • So at that time is when the proposals
  • were beginning to come out to look for another location.
  • Or they probably had been coming out for some time,
  • but we were ready to really try and put that into motion.
  • So that was the primary project that we initially
  • got involved in was the building and purchasing the building
  • and being able to raise the funds that
  • were needed initially and then gradually, to raise funds
  • to do what improvements-- some improvements that
  • had to be made to the building, deal
  • with the city around the issue of tax-exempt status,
  • which they tried to hit us with taxes.
  • And so we had to get into that issue.
  • And so that was--
  • I became treasurer of the board, so I
  • was used to watching the money in an organization
  • and nonprofit organizations as managers.
  • So I really focused most of my energy that way.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk about the tax incident
  • with the city.
  • Kind of walk me through that story.
  • You bought the building.
  • You're a nonprofit organization.
  • Yet, the city is still claiming that you're not
  • exempt from taxes and then, I think basically,
  • you had to go to court, right?
  • BETTY DWYER: Right.
  • Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, walk me through that story.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah, well, we got the building.
  • And we totally assumed, there was never any
  • thought about the--
  • possibly having to pay property taxes for the building.
  • But lo and behold, as soon as we got the building,
  • the city said that we were--
  • I can't even remember how the communication
  • came, whether they just sent us a tax bill.
  • But anyway, we became pretty quickly aware of the fact
  • that the city wanted to charge us
  • property taxes, which to me, just seemed totally absurd.
  • I had worked for Action for a Better Community for ten years.
  • I had been around when Ibero-American Action
  • League was actually formed.
  • And I had worked for the Urban League.
  • And I knew darn well none of these organizations
  • paid any property taxes.
  • Not all of them owned property, but it wasn't even
  • a thought as far as I was concerned, that it shouldn't
  • be tax exempt.
  • So what we said is hey, why should we be paying taxes?
  • We're a 501(c)(3) corporation, which is a tax-exempt
  • corporation, a charitable organization.
  • And we shouldn't have to pay taxes.
  • Well, city said they disagreed.
  • So we said, hey, let's go to court.
  • The city had recently lost a big court case around taxes,
  • property taxes, to businesses.
  • And I just totally associated the Gay Alliance as an advocacy
  • organization.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Let's pick it up there.
  • CREW: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's pick it up where
  • the city disagreed with you.
  • BETTY DWYER: So the city disagreed.
  • They said that we needed to pay property taxes,
  • that there was no basis for us to have property tax exemption.
  • I certainly wasn't a lawyer.
  • And I certainly wasn't someone who
  • was up on all of the details.
  • But to me, it just seemed obvious
  • that the Gay Alliance was an organization very much
  • like the Urban League or Ibero-American Action League.
  • They were advocating for the rights--
  • primarily, the Urban League was, for the rights
  • of African-Americans.
  • The Ibero-American League was set up primarily
  • as an advocacy organization for the Latino community.
  • And we were an advocacy organization
  • for the gay people.
  • What difference is there in the terms of the law?
  • So we decided we would go to court over it.
  • And one of the things that I suggested-- and of course,
  • Ellen Yacknin was involved with the Alliance at the time--
  • I can't really recall whether she was actually a board member
  • or not-- but an attorney.
  • And so she said that she would be willing to take the case.
  • My suggestion was, hey, let's--
  • to me, it's comparable.
  • Let's compare ourselves there.
  • Now, to what extent she used that in her--
  • her arguments in court, I can't recall.
  • But it did go to court.
  • She certainly did appear, and we won the case.
  • To this day, I just, in my mind, I
  • don't see how anybody could justify.
  • Although, in my mind now--
  • because I did development for Ibero-American Action League
  • in my last job--
  • I do understand that there are reasons that some--
  • and I might even argue at this point,
  • particularly with churches, that they should pay property taxes.
  • But if we're saying apples and apples and equality
  • and fairness, yeah, there is no-- there
  • was no basis in my mind for them to be able to charge us
  • property taxes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you recall anything specifically
  • in the city's language or response to you?
  • Exactly what was their argument?
  • BETTY DWYER: We met with Mr. Cash.
  • Lou Cash was then the corporation counsel
  • for the city.
  • And we met with him at City Hall.
  • And I can honestly say I could never
  • understand what their basis was and what their justification
  • was for applying the taxes.
  • We spoke to him.
  • I don't remember that much what the conversation was about
  • or what he said.
  • The only recollection I have-- or my clearest recollection
  • is that we left the meeting with him saying
  • that he would get back to us.
  • Now, somebody mentioned something.
  • I think Evelyn mentioned something about--
  • he claimed that it was the mayor who was insisting on this.
  • I believe Tom Ryan was mayor at that time.
  • I find that kind of difficult to believe.
  • And if he told us that at the meeting,
  • I would have found it difficult to believe
  • and would have been perfectly happy if he said, "Well,
  • I'm going to go and talk to the mayor,
  • and we'll get back to you about this."
  • He was supposed to get back to us.
  • He never did.
  • He never did, and it went on--
  • it went on to court.
  • And he lost, and we won.
  • And I don't remember the circumstances.
  • But I'm sure that there was a time later
  • when it was raised without my knowledge.
  • And he publicly claimed that I had not
  • followed through on something.
  • Well, I wasn't there to defend myself,
  • and I don't have to defend myself.
  • He was supposed to get back to us.
  • The man lost the case, and we won it.
  • And it was right.
  • They didn't have a basis.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: God, I would love
  • to be a fly on the wall between Tom and Lou
  • after that court case, their meeting together.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah.
  • If it was.
  • For all I know, it could have been just a side step.
  • I don't take anything for granted
  • when it comes to what he may have--
  • what his motivations were.
  • I don't even know that.
  • It was little to no money.
  • We did not have a Taj Mahal to charge property taxes for.
  • It was just a little building on Atlantic Avenue
  • that we paid, what, seventy, ninety thousand dollars for,
  • something like that.
  • How much property taxes did it represent?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • Somebody had a chip on their shoulder.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah, it was strange.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Considering your involvement
  • with the gay community, whether it
  • was the CETA funding and the issues that
  • came with that or eventually becoming involved with the Gay
  • Alliance board and the city property tax issue
  • and whatever else after that, how
  • do you want history to reflect upon you in
  • regards to what you've contributed
  • for the gay community?
  • What do you want them to note most about you?
  • More importantly, what are you most proud of?
  • BETTY DWYER: Oh, I'm most proud of the--
  • managing the CETA project.
  • I did it very consciously, very deliberately
  • to assure the community of some help.
  • And I succeeded I think.
  • And I think it did mean something.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that was gonna
  • be my next question-- the significance of it
  • for the community as a whole.
  • BETTY DWYER: Well, I think when you're
  • fighting the fight of civil rights, whoever it is, whatever
  • group, and you have this fear factor out
  • there that people are--
  • it's kind of they don't understand, they don't know,
  • and they're taught to be afraid--
  • that the only way you begin to break that down
  • is by little steps, step by step.
  • Supposedly, hiring three people by the Gay Alliance
  • was going to be this big threat to the county of Monroe.
  • The gays were going to be on the loose and taking over.
  • We laugh, and it's absurd.
  • But weirdly enough, it whatever--
  • and the most extreme people, the most frightened people,
  • the ones that lash out with such hate and fear,
  • really, they are the extreme.
  • But there's all these other levels
  • hiding away, even among those who feel the most enlightened.
  • And so it isn't until things happen
  • that start to break that down.
  • What in the world happened?
  • Nothing happened, except that, hopefully,
  • a few gay people maybe got a few benefits
  • from a few people working.
  • So that begins, I think-- it's a long fight.
  • When the fears are that deep and people are so scared of things,
  • we're scared of them ourselves.
  • It gives courage.
  • It gives courage to the community
  • too that we can go out and do things, and we can be open.
  • It gives courage to people that come out.
  • And that whole process and watching the process having
  • gone on-- now I've watched it for forty years--
  • that's the way it happens, little by little.
  • And people do what they can do from where they are.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: In regards to still fighting the good fight
  • or trying to overcome the challenges that still lie
  • ahead, what advice would you be giving to our younger
  • generations, younger generations of gays and lesbians,
  • and what they should be doing for themselves
  • but doing-- also doing for the community?
  • BETTY DWYER: I don't know.
  • It's tough.
  • We love to give advice at this stage of our lives,
  • but sometimes, it's a little--
  • it's a little tough to know.
  • But like I say, I think each individual, first of all,
  • has to deal with their own selves, their own--
  • and being true to themself and handling their lives as openly
  • and honestly as they can for themselves
  • and people around them.
  • And certainly, people being out and open
  • has been the greatest transformation, I think.
  • Because again, people have to see people that they know
  • and that aren't the stereotypical whatever
  • they have in their mind.
  • So on a very-- you have to deal-- and every gay person
  • today, as well as in the past, I think,
  • has to deal with their own personal journey
  • and being open and honest with themselves and with family,
  • friends, loved ones, coworkers, whoever.
  • So that's the one level.
  • And then the other level is I think we all
  • do have an obligation to contribute
  • what we can to the movement forward of the whole community.
  • That's really every community.
  • That's the community we live in, which is
  • gay people and non-gay people.
  • I was at a talk last night out at RIT around--
  • from a gentleman who's working in Brazil
  • reconciliation and conflict.
  • And I think we all have an obligation
  • as part of a community to try and contribute
  • to the progress of that community in the best ways
  • that we can.
  • So whether it's joining as a member
  • or contributing or giving volunteer time or taking--
  • everybody has to look for their way to be able to do it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
  • Well, thank you.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah, you're welcome
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Pleasure.
  • BETTY DWYER: Yeah, it's been--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Brian will get that microphone off of you.