Video Interview, Bill Giancursio, October 20, 2012

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: The first thing I need you to do
  • is give me the correct spelling of your first
  • and last as you want it to appear on the screen.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Bill.
  • That's pretty straightforward.
  • Giancursio is G-I-A-N-C-U-R-S-I-O.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember what
  • dates you worked on The Empty Closet from 1970 to--
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: It was really a brief period.
  • Probably a year.
  • Maybe a little bit more.
  • And I worked on The Empty Closet probably in the late '70s, '76,
  • '77, and through there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What was your primary role
  • in The Empty Closet?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: My primary role working on The Empty Closet
  • was as a graphic designer.
  • I used to do layout and some artwork cover design.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start there.
  • Let's first talk about getting you out of The Empty Closet.
  • What got you involved?
  • What interested you about it?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, back in the '70s,
  • there weren't a lot of venues to meet people.
  • And you could go to the bars or you
  • could do other whatever to meet people,
  • so it was a social outlet really.
  • I didn't think of myself as a especially political person,
  • but I did know some of the people who were
  • working on The Empty Closet.
  • And I just thought I'd try it out and see
  • what it would be like.
  • And I also was an artist and had graphic design skills,
  • and so that's pretty much why I decided to try it out and see
  • how it would work.
  • So that's what my motivation was.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about that first meeting,
  • or the first time you stepped into the production
  • of The Empty Closet.
  • What was that experience like?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: The first time I
  • started working for The Empty Closet,
  • I was pretty much disoriented.
  • I didn't know what was going on.
  • It was just pretty hectic, I guess, because I came in,
  • I think, during production week when
  • we were putting the paper together
  • after all of the decisions had been
  • made about what to put in the paper
  • and who was going to do what.
  • So I was just in the midst of things in the basement of Jim's
  • in a really dark room just doing jobs, whatever, I think,
  • Tim was the editor at that time.
  • And Tim would tell me to work on this, work on that,
  • and just go from there basically.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, talk to me a little bit about some
  • of the camaraderie that was taking place
  • in putting this paper together.
  • Let me leave it at that.
  • Again, just describe for me the experience
  • of people coming together and putting together
  • a gay newspaper in the 1970s.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, putting the paper together
  • was an exciting thing for us, because it
  • was a real opportunity for us to meet other people, as I said.
  • But it was also scary, because you had to put yourself out
  • there and people weren't doing that as easily back
  • in the '70s.
  • There was always that fear, that apprehension that people were
  • going to see your name printed on something gay,
  • and associate you with--
  • we had a disclaimer in the paper that said,
  • just because you worked on the paper
  • was not an indication of your sexual orientation,
  • and so there was there was a lot of apprehension
  • about doing this because it was a big step for many of us.
  • But we had a crew.
  • People would work at different times,
  • and sometimes not everybody would be there,
  • but a select group of people would be there.
  • And we would also have production week
  • when we would crunch to put the paper together, cutting it,
  • and pasting it together.
  • Because nothing was done on computers back then,
  • so it was a process of just taking rubber cement
  • and gluing it together, and pasting the pages all together.
  • It also wasn't a very large paper.
  • I mean, it was monumental for us because it was such a big deal
  • to be doing this.
  • But at the same time, when I look at The Empty Closet
  • today and make comparisons, it's like what we were
  • doing was really so minimal.
  • It was a step up from what happened in Joe Baker's house
  • where they were just printing it in standard 8 1/2 by 11 paper.
  • Now, we were on a large format and so the group
  • would get together.
  • I mean, it was a social thing.
  • We would laugh and have some fun while we were there
  • and do a lot of giggling and just having a good time.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you have that sense of pride
  • in what you were doing?
  • Particularly, not just pride in your work for the paper,
  • but pride in what the paper was doing for the gay community?
  • Did you even realize how significant something
  • like this gay newspaper could be for Rochester?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I don't think I ever
  • put it quite in that context.
  • I knew that it was important.
  • It was important for us to be doing it,
  • and I don't think that the community was
  • that receptive to it in the beginning.
  • Case in point, we used to, on nights
  • when the paper was printed and delivered,
  • we would go to the bars and stand at the doors at 2:00 am
  • and hand out the newspaper as people were leaving.
  • Empty Closet, Empty Closet, Empty Closet, and I
  • can remember one person taking it and shaking it and saying,
  • it certainly is empty, and threw it on the floor and walked out.
  • And I was like, this is pretty funny, but at the same time,
  • this is obviously somebody who didn't really
  • care about the newspaper.
  • But, by and large, most people took it,
  • and I think most people read it and found
  • that there was something of relevance in it for them.
  • We tried to deal with topics that
  • were important at the time, like rape in Rochester
  • and gays in prison and things like that.
  • And so, I think it was relevant.
  • I think it was important to be doing it.
  • I'm not so sure that everybody's consciousness
  • was at the same level, and that's what I'm talking about.
  • I think we have a much greater collective gay consciousness
  • these days than we did back then.
  • Back then, the consciousness was pretty much
  • centered around going to bars and meeting people
  • and doing whatever you want to do with them,
  • and so there wasn't that political.
  • I think a lot of people didn't really
  • think that they had a right to be out front
  • and to be accepted as gay people.
  • A lot of it was hidden.
  • A lot of it was in the shadows, and so it was really
  • an important thing.
  • It was.
  • CREW: I have to interrupt for a moment.
  • I can't hear.
  • And I'm rolling again.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So when you look back at the late '70s
  • working on this paper, and now looking
  • at where The Empty Closet is today,
  • I mean, it's almost coming up on 40 years
  • of being in publication.
  • New York State's oldest gay newspaper.
  • How does that make you feel, looking back
  • and knowing that you were part of it in those early days?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, when I look back
  • over the past 40 years and the progression of the paper,
  • it's really quite amazing to me, I mean,
  • that it is still in existence.
  • And not only that, but that it is a very good publication.
  • It's really filled with information,
  • and we have advertisers, we have people
  • who are not afraid to be affiliated
  • with The Empty Closet newspaper.
  • We used to really struggle to get people to advertise,
  • because that was a source of revenue for us.
  • So it really is quite remarkable to see the progression
  • over the years of how the paper has developed into what it is.
  • I thought it was something spectacular back then,
  • and it really was very minimal.
  • It wasn't a lot.
  • So today, it's just quite amazing to see where it's gone.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And a little bit more of a broader view of it.
  • What do you think it says about a community like Rochester
  • to be able to have the oldest gay newspaper in New York state
  • published here in Rochester?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I'm not sure I know how to respond to that,
  • because I just really don't.
  • I think that the people in this community
  • obviously recognize the need to have this paper.
  • We also have an incredibly devoted group
  • of people putting it together, particularly, Susan Jordan.
  • I don't know that the paper would
  • have lasted as long as it has without Susan's dedication
  • and just work.
  • She's just remarkable in that regard.
  • so, I think that the paper is a testimonial to the people who
  • are dedicated to making sure that paper
  • gets out and recognize the relevance of it,
  • but I never would have thought 40 years ago
  • that the newspaper would have continued the way it has.
  • It really is amazing to me.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's step away from the newspaper
  • a little bit.
  • Let's just talk about gay life in Rochester, late '70s,
  • what was it like?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, gay life in Rochester in the '70s
  • was interesting because we were just
  • at the point of feeling it was OK to be gay.
  • I mean, we had the psychiatric stamp of approval
  • that it was not an illness to be gay, and so there was--
  • I think, at least for me, there was
  • this feeling better about myself as a gay man,
  • and willing to accept that it was OK to be gay,
  • and so coming out was starting to happen in me.
  • And, of course, being on the newspaper,
  • being politically involved was part of that process,
  • because we didn't want to just go
  • to the bars, which is what we did, which was really
  • all we had before the political consciousness
  • started to kick in, and, well, before Stonewall.
  • I mean I was not a part of being out prior to that, so
  • everything happened for me afterwards.
  • And so I thought that, wow, we're there.
  • We've arrived, and we hadn't arrived at all.
  • What I remember the most is, and what I still remember now
  • as I look back is impatience, waiting for our turn,
  • and thinking that it was going to happen at any point now.
  • And, of course, it never did, and now 40 years later, we're
  • still just starting to approach a point in time where
  • we are acceptable.
  • We are accepted and we can get married.
  • This blows my mind.
  • I was ready for it 40 years ago and expected it 40 years ago.
  • So just sitting there and waiting and waiting,
  • and in a time when the consciousness was
  • evolving so slowly.
  • It really just was a different time period.
  • Well, we were on a roll and then the whole business
  • with AIDS just interrupted and changed
  • the whole process for us.
  • So I think that it makes a difference.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well let me just expand that a little bit,
  • because there's so many different perceptions
  • of what AIDS did for us.
  • And sure, it was a tragedy, took a lot of people away from us,
  • but it really forced us out of the closet.
  • From your perspective, when you first started hearing
  • about AIDS hitting the Rochester community,
  • what do you remember about that time,
  • and what do you remember about how
  • we, more from your own experience,
  • were trying to understand what was happening?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: When I first heard about the epidemic, when
  • I first heard about AIDS, I was in the midst of a relationship.
  • I had a seven year relationship, and it was probably
  • three years in, and I remember being in my living room
  • and hearing something on WXXI about this plague,
  • this disease, this cancer.
  • They were calling it gay related,
  • and thinking, well, this is totally impossible.
  • How could this be?
  • This doesn't make sense.
  • I think that somebody is just making this up and, of course,
  • as the time progressed, it became more apparent what
  • was really happening.
  • And I was glad I was in a relationship.
  • I had been in a monogamous relationship for some time,
  • but I was also afraid, as we all were, because we just
  • didn't know what was going on with it, and the impact of it
  • on the community.
  • So it was a scary thing for a lot of people.
  • Was it a good thing, or a bad thing?
  • It did put a face on being gay, and it certainly changed things
  • for us politically, but it also, I think,
  • caused a setback for us because we lost our momentum.
  • I can remember going to Washington DC for one
  • of the first gay marches on Washington
  • where they exhibited the quilt for the first time,
  • and what an incredibly empowering feeling that was
  • and realizing for the first time how this had affected us.
  • I mean, we were totally overwhelmed by the experience.
  • I never thought it was that enormous but it was.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember if that was October of 1992?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: It was before then.
  • I think, it was in the '80s.
  • It was one of the first ones.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just jumping around here a little bit.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: It's OK, so am I.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want more of a sense of what it
  • was like to be gay in the '70s.
  • You talked about Jim's.
  • I know nothing about Jim's.
  • Tell me about Jim's.
  • Describe for me, if you need describe for me about
  • Jim's, and what the experience was like being at Jim's?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Being gay in the '70s was very interesting.
  • There was the bars, and that was our focal point.
  • We went to the bars to meet people,
  • and regardless of whether you were into casual sex
  • or you just wanted to socially connect with other people
  • and make friends, there really weren't other places to go.
  • And so going to Jim's, Jim's was the bar in Rochester.
  • The big bar to go to on a Saturday night, on a Friday
  • night, and just dance.
  • It was even a little bit before disco,
  • and so Gloria Gaynor, that era, just a little bit before disco
  • hit.
  • And so you want to he went to Jim's to dance.
  • Then, of course, being after Stonewall, we could touch.
  • We could connect with each other.
  • We didn't have to worry about having the police raid us
  • or anything like that.
  • So we felt more comfortable about it, but it was fun time.
  • I mean, obviously, I was 40 years younger,
  • so the energy level was great.
  • You took a nap in the early evening
  • so that you could go out and party and you
  • went out at 11:00.
  • I can remember the first experience
  • when I first came out and first decided to go into a gay bar.
  • It took a lot of effort on my part,
  • because I really didn't know anybody.
  • I didn't know any gay people, but I
  • knew there was a gay bar in the city, a big one.
  • And I used to drive around it a lot just
  • to see what was going on, check out the landscape.
  • And the first time I went, I got very drunk
  • before I went to the bar.
  • And I started drinking about 8:00.
  • By 9:30, I was totally blasted.
  • I got in my car, drove over to Jim's, and I said, damn it,
  • I'm going in this bar tonight.
  • And I went into the bar at 9:30, and, of course,
  • nobody goes out before 11:00-11:30,
  • and there was nobody in the bar, and I was so blasted I could
  • barely see what was going on.
  • There were lights flashing.
  • I mean, there was music playing, but nobody was in the bar
  • and it was like, oh my god, what have I done?
  • It was just the timing was bad, and then I
  • realized, OK, let's try this again a little later.
  • And then, of course, another night I went out
  • and the place was just hopping, and it was very exciting.
  • It was very exciting for me to just suddenly see
  • there were other people there and meeting some
  • of these people and realizing that they were not
  • at all stereotypically what I expected gay people to be.
  • And I can remember going home and saying, wow,
  • that person's gay and that person is gay.
  • I just didn't know what to expect,
  • but I was overwhelmed by my expectations
  • of the people I met.
  • I had also started college at that time,
  • so I had one gay friend who was there and introduced me
  • to some others, and pretty soon, well, over a course of time,
  • I just made friends and we'd just hang out really.
  • That's what you did.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But still at that time, correct me if
  • I'm wrong, but you still had to be a little careful?
  • Police were still raiding bars, and police were writing down
  • license plate numbers.
  • You were a college student at the time
  • so you didn't have to worry about your employer finding
  • out, but there were a lot of things
  • that people had to deal with back then.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: There was always gay oppression.
  • There's gay oppression today.
  • It doesn't go away, but you, at some point, have to say enough.
  • It's like, yes, if I want to be afraid
  • that people are going to write my license plate down,
  • and are going to be taking pictures of me
  • or stalking me or threatening me,
  • then I'm going to stay at home and never go out.
  • So you have to take risks.
  • That's just the way it is.
  • There's no way around it.
  • I think it's easier to take risks today
  • than it was back then, sure.
  • But the police department was right there next
  • to Jim's, which was funny so you had to walk by the police
  • department to go into Jim's.
  • And sometimes, we were a little bit afraid,
  • but most of the time we just didn't think about it.
  • It was the rewards of being able to be ourselves and to go out
  • and to just have a drink with friends
  • was more important and more significant than the fear.
  • And yet, there were a lot of people who were afraid and just
  • wouldn't go out to the bars because of that reason,
  • and they found other ways of expressing their sexuality.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So with that scenario,
  • because that was not a time period where a lot of people
  • could be openly gay.
  • Again, you're working on this newspaper
  • and putting a face to gay people in their community.
  • What are you most proud of about that?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Putting a face on the newspaper
  • was a challenge.
  • I remember we did a newspaper that
  • was entitled, The Empty Closet Looks at Itself,
  • which showed us in the process of production.
  • Believe it was Whitey LeBlanc took pictures
  • of all of us doing production.
  • I was terrified when that newspaper came out,
  • because there was my face in the paper along with my name,
  • and I was putting together the gay paper.
  • So it was scary.
  • It really was.
  • But once I saw it, it was like, OK, it's out there.
  • So what?
  • What are you going to do, put me in jail?
  • No.
  • I knew that wouldn't happen, so it was--
  • on some level, I realized I was confronting my own fears
  • about being gay, and how other people
  • were going to react to it.
  • And that's really where your comfort zones come from.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know what year that was?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I'm going to say 1978.
  • I have the newspaper.
  • I could have brought it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'd like to look up a copy of that paper
  • downstairs, and hopefully, they still
  • have some of the original photos on file.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, the photos are in the paper too,
  • and I don't know where the files would be.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Photofiles are downstairs as well,
  • so with any luck the original photos are still there.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: There's a whole strip
  • of us all down the side just cutting and pasting and--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Those are the things.
  • If I can't find it downstairs, we'll
  • be calling you and saying--
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Yeah, I did have that one newspaper.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk a little bit again
  • about being gay in Rochester.
  • Have you been to pictures of ImageOut?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I used to go to the ImageOut films,
  • but because I teach in the evenings, it's difficult for me
  • to get to a lot of movies and a lot of the films.
  • And now with gay TV, you don't even have to.
  • You can watch a lot of them on the Logo, on the gay channel.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You're the person we don't like.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: No, I did.
  • The first couple of years, I went to many of the movies.
  • Yeah, a lot of them.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's just talk about those early years then
  • because we're talking to some people about those early years
  • of ImageOut.
  • And, again, why it's so significant that a city like
  • Rochester could have a film festival.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, as an artist
  • I've been a part of ImageArt.
  • I've been in ImageArt a number of years
  • and have actually won top prize once or twice
  • a couple of years.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, talk to me about that.
  • Talk to me about being part of what
  • is publicly known as the gay/lesbian art exhibition
  • here in Rochester.
  • Again, why is that significant for the community,
  • but moreso why is it significant for you as a gay artist?
  • Do you want to be known as a gay artist
  • or do you want be known as just an artist?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, I think of myself as an artist first.
  • The fact that I'm gay is just part of the deal.
  • And I also think that my art is very, very gay.
  • There are a lot of gay undertones
  • and there's a lot of ambiguity in my work as well.
  • And so, it does speak to a gay person on a certain level,
  • but it also is mysterious on another level.
  • Certainly, I do a lot of figurative work.
  • I do a lot of work with male figures, male forms,
  • and the interaction between them.
  • If you read between the lines, you
  • can see that it is gay work, but it's also not that overtly gay
  • because it's just the way I work as an artist.
  • But being a part of ImageArt was a neat experience,
  • because it was uniquely ours.
  • It was for the gay community.
  • I think by the time that I had come
  • to the point where I was entering artwork,
  • I was very comfortable being gay.
  • I mean, I am very comfortable being gay now.
  • I think the early years were the years of apprehension,
  • and certainly by the time ImageArt came around
  • and ImageOut came around, it was no big deal.
  • It's integrated into who I am.
  • I think probably the biggest hurdle was dealing
  • with relatives and parents, but once that is off the table,
  • then it's like, I've got nothing to hide.
  • They know who I am.
  • Fear of being on the news, because, in early years,
  • we also had a lot of events that the press covered,
  • and so there was always that, oh my god,
  • am I going to be on the news tonight?
  • But, once again, you evolve past that.
  • You develop a level of comfort with yourself
  • about who you are, and it's like, you know what?
  • I don't give a damn.
  • It's like, what's the big deal?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Brings up a question again
  • in regards to your art.
  • We are focusing on many things in this documentary.
  • We're focusing on gays in political,
  • and gays in education, and gays in the social scene, gays
  • in civil rights, and all that.
  • One thing we also want to focus is gay artists,
  • and how gays have contributed to arts and cultural scene
  • here in Rochester.
  • And does your work convey any political message,
  • social message?
  • Do you see your work having any kind of influence
  • for gay activism in the community?
  • How do you want people see your work,
  • and how are you connected?
  • There's a lot of questions in here.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I know, you're covering a lot of bases.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Exploring for a question
  • here, but as a gay artist--
  • as an artist, how has your work connected
  • to say the gay community and who we are?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, as an artist who's gay,
  • it's impossible for me to separate myself from what I do.
  • I think that my work is very political.
  • As opposed to say decorative or just interesting to look at,
  • there's always a message of some kind,
  • and that message is probably the motivation behind what I do
  • and why I do it.
  • So I can't separate being gay from the art that I do,
  • because it is there.
  • I mean, if people were to look at my art,
  • they would know that I was a gay artist because of the content
  • if they want to do the work and think about it.
  • The other thing I do is I do books too.
  • I do photo books.
  • In addition to painting as an artist, which
  • is one way of expressing myself, I've
  • also found another way of expressing myself
  • through the books that I do which are basically
  • about gay play.
  • I use a lot of Ken dolls and GI Joe dolls,
  • and I photograph them in various aspects.
  • One of my books is Our Gay Wedding Day,
  • where I did an entire wedding with the reception
  • and the ceremony and all of the preparatory work and everything
  • that goes into a wedding like a photographer
  • might do for a heterosexual couple.
  • Only I did it all in small miniature scale using the toys,
  • because the toys are very much a part of our indoctrination
  • as children.
  • Boys were not allowed to have dolls.
  • Well, we weren't until GI Joe came along
  • and then we gave kids the right to play with dolls,
  • but they were really called action figures not dolls.
  • It's just an interesting twist, because now,
  • when you think about it, boys can play with dolls as long
  • as we don't call them dolls.
  • And the other thing is that men have been denied the right
  • to play with dolls and to play house, and do
  • things that are considered more associated with little girls.
  • And little girls are denied their right
  • to do masculine things, and we indoctrinate them.
  • We start early with toys.
  • We say you can play with this, but you can't play with that
  • because little girls don't do that,
  • and little boys don't want to do that.
  • So we really indoctrinate kids early on,
  • and my whole premise is that we have a right to these toys
  • as children.
  • We have a right to select it.
  • As gay children, we know what we want to play with.
  • And so, we should be allowed to select
  • and then that should be a part of our right as children.
  • To grow up and explore the concept
  • of play just in a free way without being labeled anything
  • in particular.
  • And so we're gay, but we know what we want to play with
  • and these toys are very much a part of our upbringing too.
  • So I just did this whole series of books, Gay Play,
  • where I'm playing with dolls the way I wanted to as a child.
  • Only I'm playing with them as an adult,
  • and making a statement about the indoctrination that
  • goes into playing with toys, and the way we start early on.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can I just follow up on that
  • a little bit about using your work
  • or conveying in your work something that
  • can make a social comment a comment on who
  • we are as a society.
  • Talk to me a little bit about that.
  • About you're an artist who happens to be gay,
  • and a lot of that gets worked into your work.
  • But there's the bigger picture there,
  • you're making a comment on something
  • about who we are as a society?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, I am making a comment
  • about who we are as a society.
  • I mean, politically, I'm also making comments
  • about who we are as gay people.
  • Another book I did is called Hard.
  • It's an ambiguous title intentionally,
  • but it talks about, it's all about gay men
  • and their obsession with going to the gym
  • and working out and having hard bodies,
  • and all the rest of the stuff that
  • goes along with being hard.
  • It's all ambiguous, but it's also interesting
  • because it is part of our culture.
  • So politically, it's part of our culture.
  • It's also just sharing it with other people who
  • don't know otherwise, particularly,
  • straight society that we have things
  • that are part of our culture.
  • Drag queens, for example.
  • There was a time when we just didn't
  • want to be associated with drag queens because of elements
  • of, obviously, stereotypes that we all want
  • to wear dresses and high heels.
  • Which is absurd, but straight society
  • said, OK, if you're gay, that's what you want.
  • This brings up something interesting.
  • I remember my first partner.
  • When we first met, he was not out, and he did come out
  • and told his sister shortly after.
  • And I said, I don't know if that's a good idea,
  • you should think about this.
  • And he said to his sister, I'm gay,
  • and she said, so when are you going to start wearing dresses
  • and wigs.
  • He was floored by that.
  • He didn't know how to respond to it,
  • and I was like, I could not believe
  • that this is what she thought was going to be part
  • of his evolution as a gay man.
  • It was just like, wow, that was like,
  • oh, I guess people do believe this crap.
  • And so, getting back to my original point about drag
  • queens.
  • We distanced ourselves from them.
  • We were afraid of them.
  • Some people loved the entertainment.
  • Some of us just never recognized the need for it.
  • We wanted to get away from that stereotype as best we can.
  • We wanted distance ourselves as much as we could from it,
  • because it's still society's way of saying, oh, it's OK for you
  • to be gay as long as you entertain us with your gayness.
  • Screw that.
  • We can be doctors and lawyers too and contribute to society.
  • Our sole contribution is not as drag queens to entertain you,
  • to be at your disposal.
  • But, nowadays, we're OK with that.
  • We've integrated that into who we are
  • and we believe that, yeah, it's who we are.
  • It's part of who we are, but it's not all that we are,
  • and if that's all you see, then the hell with you.
  • Who cares?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But back to your point.
  • As an artist, putting images out there that aren't the direct.
  • Putting images out there that are different elements
  • of who we are as a community.
  • What is your thought on how an artist helps influence society
  • or help to educate a society?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, for me, art is confrontational.
  • I believe that art should be confrontational.
  • That's just my personal opinion, because it's not for everybody.
  • Some people find it to be just decorative and fun
  • and it matches the room.
  • I mean, everyone has a different opinion
  • about what art should be.
  • From my perspective, it should be confrontational.
  • It should engage you as the viewer.
  • It should ask questions to you.
  • It should make you walk away wondering or thinking
  • about something, and so as a gay artist,
  • there is that gay narrative in my work.
  • And so, for anybody who looks at it,
  • I want them to walk away wondering,
  • what it is I'm saying or thinking about something that I
  • made a comment on.
  • And, usually, that is a gay comment of some sort.
  • I'm telling you something to think
  • about in terms of us being gay.
  • So art, it takes many forms for many people.
  • It all depends on who you are, and what you want from it.
  • Some people just like pretty landscapes.
  • And it's like the whole concept of being gay means
  • being a drag queen.
  • Being an artist means doing pretty pictures.
  • Well, it's not always the case.
  • Art is political.
  • You can't deny that.
  • I mean, art has always been political,
  • and I think powerful art, strong art,
  • does make a comment of some sort.
  • Not that there's anything wrong with having pretty pictures
  • above your sofa.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: There's a joke in there somewhere.
  • We'll just wrap this up because I still
  • want to follow on this contribution
  • of the artist thought here.
  • Not only from just your artwork, but when
  • we look at all the arts, whether it's visual arts or dance
  • or music or theater or whatever, there's
  • a long history of gays being part of all of that.
  • And we have for a very long time have had a lot
  • to say through our artwork.
  • Basically, your thoughts on that, more generalized terms.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I think that there are a lot of gay artists.
  • There's a lot of art that has gay undertones.
  • I guess what I'm getting at--
  • give me a second here to think about this.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I'm not even
  • thinking about an art piece that is even gay themed.
  • There's a lot of gay artists out there doing landscapes.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: You're right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But we've had a lot of influence
  • on what art is.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I think that when we look at art,
  • we have to realize that art is created by people who
  • see the world differently, who see
  • the world through creativity.
  • And I think that involves a certain element of sensitivity
  • to your surroundings, and I think
  • that gay people are sensitive.
  • They think that a lot of them are
  • attuned to the world in a different way.
  • Their perceptual skills, they're aware of oppression, and just
  • the way the world responds to them,
  • and so there is this sensitivity,
  • I think, that very often finds its expression in creativity.
  • Whether it's dance or music or painting, and so,
  • not every artist is gay, but every artist
  • is sensitive to something.
  • And sometimes, some of the most sensitive people
  • are gay because they just see the world differently,
  • and they express it from that perspective.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about gay marriage.
  • Ring on the finger, so you got married.
  • Get married in New York or before?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: No, my partner Tom Farace and I
  • got married in Massachusetts, three years ago.
  • And we did so because Massachusetts
  • is the state that is challenging the federal government,
  • and so we thought about going to Canada.
  • We thought about waiting for New York,
  • and then we thought, no, we're going to go to Massachusetts.
  • And do it because Massachusetts is
  • at the forefront of the movement,
  • and if anything happens federally,
  • it's going to happen in Massachusetts first.
  • And so, this is why we selected Massachusetts.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So in terms of then
  • New York finally passing gay marriage legislation,
  • your first thoughts when you heard that it passed?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, when I first
  • heard that marriage equality passed in New York,
  • I was at equal ground the night that they voted and put it
  • all together.
  • And it was like, well, it's about time.
  • It really is.
  • I mean I can remember going to an ESPA dinner
  • and Eliot Spitzer telling us it's going to happen,
  • it's going to happen, and it seemed
  • like that was a couple of years before it did,
  • and I kept waiting.
  • I'm an impatient person.
  • I kept waiting for it to happen, and I wasn't sure
  • that it would.
  • In fact, the first time when it didn't go,
  • I was pretty annoyed by that, but I still
  • am in disbelief that it's happened in New York state.
  • And I have friends who are, oh, they're going to change it.
  • They'll take it away, and no they won't it's going to stick.
  • It's good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It's interesting that you mention that,
  • because Massachusetts is trying to abolish it.
  • They are trying to abolish it, right?
  • Massachusetts is trying go back on it?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Massachusetts is
  • challenging the federal government to accept it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: One of the states is trying.
  • It was California that repealed it.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Trying to get my states all
  • straightened out here.
  • So interesting to think about is that, OK, we got it.
  • The question is can it be taken away?
  • What are the challenges from this point on?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: It's my understanding
  • that it can't be taken away because
  • of the way it was passed.
  • It can't be brought up for a vote before the public.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We should leave it at that then.
  • I was just exploring that.
  • Really didn't even know what question I had in mind.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: Well, the interesting thing
  • is I wonder why people don't get married now that they can.
  • But it's a testament to the fact that we
  • form relationships and unions that are not based
  • on the premise of marriage.
  • We stay together because we love each other,
  • because we care about each other,
  • not because we're bound by marriage.
  • I was torn about getting married.
  • I really wasn't sure that I wanted to get married,
  • because I don't believe in the institution of marriage
  • I think it's very prejudicial.
  • First of all, because it says if you're married,
  • you are a select member of society
  • who is entitled to certain benefits and rules.
  • I think everybody should have those rights
  • whether you're married or not.
  • So the idea that we have to be married to be legitimate
  • is just absurd.
  • Marriage.
  • Doesn't last.
  • Go ahead.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But you finally made the choice to get married.
  • So why?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I married because, believe it or not,
  • and this is going to sound very shallow,
  • but we decided that we would get married
  • because of the benefits that were
  • involved in getting married.
  • And that goes back to what I was saying a minute ago
  • about the fact that the federal government and state
  • governments give you benefits because you're married.
  • That you can't have, as a single person, health care for one.
  • Maggie Brooks, you have to give us rights now.
  • You have to give me health care because I'm
  • married to Tom Farace, who works for you.
  • So I think that's a significant thing,
  • and it's the benefits that are important.
  • We should have that if married people get them,
  • we're entitled to them as well.
  • So on a political level, yeah, that's why I did it.
  • But, of course, I've also been together
  • with my husband for quite close to 20 years.
  • That's a testament to who we are and what we believe.
  • So marriage is secondary.
  • It's not going to change the way we feel about each other.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But it is interesting now,
  • because you had said that you don't understand
  • why people who have been in long-term relationships
  • don't get married now?
  • But isn't it interesting, the fact
  • that we now have the choice and that's what it's all about?
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I think it's great that we have the choice
  • to marry or to not get married, and I
  • do understand why people choose not to get married,
  • but I think that the reason you should make that choice
  • is not because you're afraid of it.
  • The fear shouldn't be the reason that stops you from doing it.
  • If you've been together for 20 years, it's like,
  • why not get married?
  • If there's something in it for you, and when
  • you think about it, carrying individual health
  • care when you can combine it and save money.
  • It's one of the ways to beat the system,
  • and the system is what's screwing us most of the time,
  • so it does make sense.
  • But, once again, it's a personal choice like everything else.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We'll leave it at that.
  • BILL GIANCURSIO: I don't know how helpful I've been.
  • I think I rambled a lot.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Don't walk away with this microphone though.