Video Interview, Bill Valenti, April 11, 2012
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So it's a conversation between you and I.
- BILL VALENTI: Yup.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The audience is not going to hear my questions.
- So try and incorporate the idea of my question
- into your answer.
- BILL VALENTI: Got it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me about breakfast this morning, Bill.
- Well, today when I was thinking about having breakfast--
- that kind of thing, OK?
- If you stumble, or lose your train of though, just stop--
- BILL VALENTI: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --start again.
- OK.
- So it should be almost kind of in the mode
- of telling a little mini story.
- BILL VALENTI: A little story?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, the story always start with a beginning,
- then there's the content, and then there's the end.
- CREW: Good to go?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- CREW: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Bill, I want to kind
- of first just kind of broach very briefly
- here a little bit about your own coming out experience.
- You came out a little bit later in life than some people.
- More interesting, particularly, the passing by of Dick's
- 43, and that whole experience for you.
- BILL VALENTI: Well I came out at the age of 35.
- So I was fully formed, and had been married
- for 10 years at that time.
- Now I had always been interested in men,
- even though I never really understood the signals,
- or what that was really about.
- Because in those days, there were no role models,
- and gay life was just undercover.
- I remember, I worked at the National Clothing Company
- in high school.
- It was a big men's clothing store
- at the corner of East Main and Stone Street.
- And the employee entrance was on Stone Street, next to 43
- Stone Street, which was Dick's 43 Club.
- Now, when I started to work at the national,
- I didn't really know what that was about.
- At least, not at first.
- I knew it was a bar of some kind.
- And the manager in the clothing department where I worked
- was a gay man.
- Of course, I suspected at the time, but didn't really--
- No, but he would tell me about his experiences
- during World War II, and he really
- didn't leave much to the imagination.
- He would describe the whorehouses
- in Havana, where you ordered your boy by the inch.
- That was the first time I had heard that kind of talk,
- but during the discussion he also told me about--
- or hinted about-- what was going on at Dick's 43 Club next door.
- So I began to keep an eye out for what
- was going on there as I left the store at night, after work.
- And would either walk by to try and get a look inside, or stand
- across the street, and see what that was about.
- Now, that was--
- I was about 17 at the time.
- So, curious, but of course never acted on any of that.
- Two years later, a group of college buddies and I--
- guys who lived in Rochester, even though we
- were at UB in Buffalo--
- were out on the town drinking, and ended up downtown,
- and decided to go to Dick's 43.
- And I can't remember how we decided to do that,
- but if my memory serves me, I was
- the one that thought that might be a good idea.
- And the others went along with it, because in those days
- you made fun of gay people.
- And laughed at them.
- And I was right there with them.
- But I had another reason, of course,
- for wanting to go in there.
- So, we all went in.
- And I saw men dancing with each other,
- and I had never seen that before.
- And thought that was kind of interesting,
- and filed that away.
- And we walked in a single file across the room--
- across the dance area, and near the bar.
- And there were men at the bar.
- Some of them kissing.
- I had never seen men kiss like that before, either.
- But two of the men, as we walked by, were in a clutch.
- One of them said to the other, I'm yours tonight.
- And two of us heard that.
- And when we got outside, he said to me, did you hear that?
- And I said, yeah.
- But was just totally thrilled by the experience.
- And then filed that away, but never really acted on it.
- Again, no role models, no point of reference.
- Because in those days, Dick's 43 Club was undercover.
- And if you went there, most people
- didn't tell anybody about it.
- So it took me a while to figure that out.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What were your--
- you say you were filing all of this information away,
- what were your biggest fears?
- BILL VALENTI: Well, the biggest fear for me
- was the stigma of being gay.
- Because in those days, there was a stigma,
- which I think is different than today, because gay people today
- are out there and visible.
- Out to different degrees, and in different ways.
- But in those days, it was much more of the post-Stonewall era.
- In those days-- during my high school days--
- it was a pre-Stonewall era.
- That was the era when people really did keep it under wraps.
- They talked in-- their conversations were coded.
- Friends of Dorothy being the one that I remember.
- Oh, she's a friend of Dorothy, called men by female pronouns.
- So I was very reluctant to do that.
- And of course, didn't want to disappoint my parents at all.
- Because they had very clear expectations of me, and for me,
- and that was not part of the discussion.
- I mean, sex and sexuality--
- those discussions were limited.
- And being gay-- in addition to being stigmatized--
- for me, was hardly on the radar screen,
- other than being a part of the stigmatization of people.
- I don't think that, in those days,
- I had either figured out what was going on in my head.
- And was probably as much a part of the problem for other kids.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So as you said, you kind of
- filed that away for a while.
- You obviously went to school, and such.
- I'm going to move right to your residency
- at the U of R. What was going on with you at the U of R,
- and what kind of work were you doing?
- BILL VALENTI: Well, my time at the University of Rochester--
- finished a residency, did a fellowship
- in infectious diseases.
- That was three years of residency,
- and two years of infectious diseases.
- Then I joined the faculty in 1977.
- So I was a young, enthusiastic assistant professor
- of medicine in the infectious diseases unit.
- And one of my jobs was to be the physician
- manager of the hospital's infection control program.
- And I also saw patients.
- I rotated on the infectious disease's service, took a call.
- And I did it a month at a time, mostly hospital,
- but there was a little bit of activity going on
- in the infectious diseases unit.
- And I also saw some students in the University Health Service.
- So I was seeing patients, and doing some research,
- and writing papers, and doing that academic thing.
- And enjoying it.
- And it was fairly uneventful, at least in the beginning.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And then, a couple of years
- later, this mystery popped up.
- This mystery disease.
- BILL VALENTI: Right, the--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about that first time that you--
- I believe you told me you actually
- read it in a journal of medicine, or something.
- About this new virus that popped up.
- Or the first time that you first heard of HIV.
- It wasn't called HIV then, but--
- and what your initial reaction to that was.
- BILL VALENTI: Well, the first time
- I heard about the disease, AIDS, was June 5th, 1981.
- And that was the report from the Centers for Disease Control,
- in their weekly report called Morbidity and Mortality,
- or MMWR--
- report came out weekly, in hard copy.
- And I was, again, in the infectious diseases
- unit on the faculty at Strong, at U of R.
- And read this weekly, because this
- was part of the infectious diseases activity
- that we were all involved in.
- They described five cases of pneumocystis pneumonia in LA,
- and several cases from New York City.
- Now, I had never seen a case of pneumocystis prior to that,
- and I've been doing infectious diseases for a bit,
- and just never saw it.
- The other interesting thing about that report,
- is it was written by a physician named Michael Gottlieb in LA.
- And Mike Gottlieb was a U of R student,
- and a resident at Strong, and had
- rotated on the infectious diseases service with me
- a couple years before that.
- So we knew him.
- I mean, he was part of the Strong family, the culture.
- And so we noted that Mike Gottlieb now
- has reported these cases.
- What I did was I read it, and I read it twice,
- because I couldn't figure it out.
- And it was something that we had never seen before.
- And I kept my files in manila folders,
- and I started a new file and I called
- it Infectious Diseases: Other.
- And put it away in the back of a file cabinet,
- because I didn't think I'd ever use
- that kind of miscellaneous stuff again, or have a need for it.
- And about, oh, three weeks to a month later--
- something like that-- we were asked to see a patient
- at Strong--
- in consultation-- who sounded and looked very much like what
- Mike Gottlieb had reported just a month earlier.
- So that got the wheels in motion,
- in terms of what was then called GRID, the gay related immune
- deficiency syndrome.
- Because it was mostly in gay men,
- and some in injection drug users.
- So that was the beginning of our experience in '81, '82
- in our sleepy infectious diseases clinic
- that we had only on Friday, that didn't see too many patients.
- All of a sudden, started to get busy.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember that moment
- where it dawned on you, this is something serious,
- this is something that's going to be detrimental?
- BILL VALENTI: Well, during those days that started in June '81,
- once that first report came out, and we started
- to see cases coming into Strong, there
- were a number of reports that followed.
- That continued.
- That seemed as though every week there
- was an additional series of cases being reported.
- We were seeing similar things here.
- And it was looking like, first of all,
- that it wasn't going away.
- That it looked like a sexually transmitted disease,
- and the pattern of disease in terms of who got it,
- and how they might have gotten it,
- looked very much like hepatitis B. Something
- that we had seen, and had been seen, for many years.
- So there's all this new activity now that's happening,
- and just the volume of patients being referred
- in to either the inpatient side on the hospital side,
- or coming in to the infectious diseases clinic.
- Because a lot of people--
- in those days-- when they were sick, started coming home.
- Leaving New York, or LA, or San Francisco,
- and coming back to Rochester to live with their families,
- because they were sick.
- So the volume of activity sent off these signals
- that, well, there's not only something going on,
- but it doesn't look like it's going away.
- In fact, it looks like it's gaining steam.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: At some point, with all the
- work that you were doing in the infectious disease unit--
- and everything that was going on at Strong--
- at some point you had made the conclusion that there was
- more--
- or different work-- that needed to be done.
- As far as care of AIDS patients.
- Can you just talk to me briefly about the beginnings
- of that thinking.
- That there needed to be something outside
- of the infectious disease unit at Strong that needed
- to be done for this community.
- BILL VALENTI: Right.
- The community response to what was now the AIDS epidemic,
- and caused by HIV--
- the volume of activity just continued.
- It just continued to come in and exploded.
- And the infectious diseases clinic
- now was operating five days a week, morning and afternoon.
- And I was seeing patients in many of those sessions.
- And that was all I was doing in addition to seeing people
- in the hospital.
- The area planning group, the task force--
- Rochester Area Task Force on AIDS--
- had been going now for a while.
- And they projected that the number
- of AIDS cases in the area would double over the next 10 years.
- And there were a couple things going
- on at strong that told me that the infectious diseases
- unit wouldn't be able to handle it all.
- The other thing is, there were some fundamental differences
- in terms of style, in terms of how we managed patients,
- and how we approached patients.
- And what we thought--
- what I thought, and Dr. Steve Scheibel, my fellow fellow
- in infectious diseases--
- what we thought needed to be done
- in terms of approaching this.
- One of the things that we thought needed to happen,
- was that we needed not only more drugs, and better drugs,
- but earlier treatment.
- And that made the most sense, if you really
- understood what AIDS was.
- Which is getting sick with HIV first, and then many years
- later--
- after the immune system was destroyed--
- you get the disease, AIDS.
- So we thought that with these differences in approach--
- and the number of cases that would be increasing over
- the next 10 years--
- it seemed like a good idea to take it out of the hospital,
- and try and form some kind of office.
- What we thought at first was really a physician practice,
- a private practice.
- But realized very soon that that wouldn't cut it
- in terms of being able to deliver the care that
- needed to be subsidized.
- Because in those days, not everybody had insurance.
- There weren't any federal programs like the Ryan White
- Act, and those kinds of programs, to support HIV care.
- And a lot of people were uninsured,
- and we would have gone out of business very fast,
- so we settled on a not-for-profit model that
- became Community Health Network.
- Now that was in 1989.
- We left the university and took about 110 patients with us.
- But it really wasn't a competition,
- because the number of cases continued to increase,
- and it just kept getting busier.
- It never peaked then fell off, that didn't happen until 1992
- when we had more drugs.
- So those early days were a lot of flying
- by the seat of our pants, because we
- didn't have the right drugs, or enough drugs.
- But we did develop an understanding
- of what might be going on, and the early treatment thing
- was the part that made the most sense.
- Now, not everybody agreed with us on that.
- And the university approach-- more
- of a data driven approach, in terms of,
- if there aren't data to support this, then you can't do it.
- Which is one of the reasons why we left.
- Because it's one thing to sit around the table
- and talk about theories, and hypotheses, and conjectures,
- but it's a completely different thing,
- and it was a completely different thing.
- Because Scheibel and I were seeing the patients
- in the clinic, and were confronted with real people.
- Real sick people right in front of us, and we
- needed to make some decisions.
- So, if you waited until the science was there
- to figure out what to do, the patient would be dead.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just recap for me then,
- what were you doing at the HN that was different than what
- was going on at Strong?
- BILL VALENTI: What we were doing at Community Health
- Network, right from the beginning,
- was what we called early intervention.
- Which became a buzz phrase in HIV world much later than 1989.
- But we always thought that if we had the right drugs, and enough
- of them, that you should be treating people with HIV
- right in the beginning.
- And stabilize the immune system, keep them from getting sick.
- So we were treating people much earlier.
- Instead of waiting for their T cells--
- or immune system measures--
- to fall off, we wanted to treat people much earlier.
- And in those days, there started to be the release of new drugs,
- so we could use them in combination.
- We were also using drugs in combination--
- we were doing that at Strong too, nobody knew it.
- We got drugs from Japan and San Francisco,
- and were using them in combination
- with the drug EZT, which was the first drug that was licensed.
- Scheibel also is a brilliant clinician, just understood HIV.
- The big picture, as well as the microscopic picture.
- He had a vaccine project, and he was making
- vaccine in the back room.
- We had a water bath and a sterilizer,
- and he was taking the cells of people with high T cells
- with HIV.
- And injected it into himself, and a number of others.
- Some of those people are still around,
- Scheibel's still around.
- So we were on the edge.
- In those days there was nobody that looked over our shoulders,
- in terms of what we were doing.
- Now there's regulation, and structure, and all of that.
- But it was like a Mash unit.
- People were sick, and you had to do something.
- So we did what we could, which was combining
- drugs that might stand some chance of working
- when they were put together.
- And playing around with Sheibel's vaccine.
- We even went to Trance, the religious supply store,
- and bought communion wafers.
- And he had a pipette that he delivered--
- (Indovino laughs)
- BILL VALENTI: Yeah, I know.
- --measured in specific amount of interferon,
- an immune system booster.
- And we were giving out communion wafers impregnated
- with interferon, and people were putting them under the tongue
- once a day.
- And they never would have allowed that at the University.
- So we had a reputation as being kind of roguish,
- and a little bit off the deep end.
- On the other hand, there are people
- that I'm following today--
- 27 or 30 years later-- who are still around,
- for what that's worth.
- But the other part of the story is
- that, there is universal agreement
- here in 2012 people with HIV should
- be treated as early as possible in the course of their illness.
- You can draw your own conclusions.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yup.
- If you can, briefly talk to me about working with people
- like Sue Cowell, and with the formation
- of AIDS Rochester, and--
- BILL VALENTI: Sue Cowell.
- I met Sue Cowell before AIDS, when
- we both worked in the University Health Service.
- She was a nurse practitioner, a young nurse practitioner--
- I think that was her first job.
- And this was my first job in the health services,
- this young eager assistant professor.
- We didn't know each other very well in those days.
- I was kind of puzzled by Sue, because she was out.
- A lesbian woman who was out, and that was in 1977 or so.
- We quickly got to know each other though.
- I liked her kind of quiet determination, the way--
- I liked her style.
- And when it came time to step up to the plate--
- when HIV first hit--
- she and one of our docs in infectious diseases--
- Tom Rush-- began to do a survey of sexual behavior
- in people with AIDS.
- And tried to-- if I remember-- tried
- to correlate their behavior to T cell accounts,
- the immune system function.
- And thinking back on that, that was
- one of the first pieces of HIV clinical research anywhere
- on Earth.
- I mean, they were right on top of that.
- And we were struggling upstairs with trying
- to figure out how to take care of all of these patients.
- But very, very early, she and Tom Rush
- put this survey together to try and begin
- to answer the questions.
- Now a little bit after that--
- see, I missed the front porch meeting at Sue's house,
- where AIDS Rochester was formed.
- But that's kind of a legendary--
- it's a milestone in HIV history around here.
- Because that meeting with those key people
- on Sue's front porch on Harper's street resulted in--
- this was another part of the community response to HIV--
- which was the formation of AIDS Rochester.
- And I became involved with AIDS Rochester a little bit
- after it was formed, and was on their board of directors.
- Once the organization got moving,
- and the number of patients increased,
- and there was New York State funding, our committee--
- including Sue and I, and John Altieri--
- was also working on the AIDS task force--
- the Rochester Area Task Force on AIDS--
- hired Jackie Nudd as the first executive
- director of AIDS Rochester.
- So now there was an organization that could provide some service
- to people who were sick.
- The medical care piece wasn't nearly as advanced
- at that point, because there was only one
- drug that came along later.
- And what we were really doing in those early days,
- in terms of treating HIV, was treating AIDS.
- The end stages of that, and treating
- the multiple infections and cancers
- that went along with it.
- So our tool box was kind of limited--
- no, our tool box was very limited in the beginning.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I'm just going to throw a couple
- names out at you.
- You already mentioned one, and I just kind of want
- to get a sense of who these people were,
- and what they were like.
- Jackie Nudd.
- BILL VALENTI: Jackie Nudd.
- I remember sitting with Jackie Nudd when we were recruiting
- an executive director for AIDS Rochester, because she had been
- working on the task force and then a couple
- other capacities, some projects.
- And she said to me, I really want this job.
- And she meant it.
- And I'll tell you, she was exactly what we needed.
- Tough.
- Just didn't take anything from anybody,
- she was just like a steamroller.
- And for the AIDS Rochester formation,
- she was just what we needed.
- Somebody who didn't care about what other people thought
- about her, didn't want to deal with AIDS stigma, and just
- very--
- she was very in your face.
- This is the job that needs to be done, and we're going to do it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So what then are your feelings toward what
- happened to her in the end?
- BILL VALENTI: Wow.
- See what happened in the end, is that the organization
- outgrew Jackie.
- That her skill set didn't quite match up to the new era of HIV.
- And what needed to be done in terms
- of taking the organization to the next level,
- she was very grassroots.
- And very effective.
- And did a good job.
- But in terms of leading the organization to the next level,
- in terms of grants and financing and program, she fell short.
- And that's what resulted in her leaving,
- and Paula Silverstone coming on board.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Good.
- Tony Greene.
- BILL VALENTI: Oh my gosh, Tony Greene.
- I met Tony Greene before HIV.
- When I was first coming out, this young--
- remember the young assistant professor--
- in 1980 decided that this is time to do it.
- So I was doing it.
- And as a part of my coming out process,
- I decided that I would visit every gay bar in town,
- and get some experience in terms of going into bars and meeting
- people.
- Now the problem was, of course, that I was married at the time.
- So I didn't have a lot of time to go out to bars,
- so I would do it after work.
- And it would be sort of a cocktail hour time
- at 5 o'clock, or 5:30.
- And went to Friar's, where Tony was the bartender.
- And there weren't a lot of people there,
- so it was kind of quiet.
- And I sat at the bar, and the bartender came up to me
- and started hovering around me and asking questions.
- He was almost like a psychiatrist.
- So, I finally revealed myself.
- And what he told me was something like,
- Doc, it's going to be OK.
- You'll be OK.
- Gave me great reassurance in just a few words
- that, you know, this is really--
- it's OK, just relax.
- So I did.
- Now, I met him later on when he became an AIDS activist
- and developed HIV, and became his doctor.
- And I can remember his last days.
- Lived down Union Street in an apartment building there.
- And I would make a house call every Saturday,
- he couldn't leave the house anymore.
- And even though he couldn't leave the house
- and was bedridden, he was just so upbeat, and so funny.
- He had an amazing attitude, a very positive attitude,
- and he knew he was dying.
- But he really made an effort in terms
- of doing the best he could to stay positive.
- The other thing he did was he mobilized a lot of people.
- He had the kind of personality that brought people together,
- people liked him, they respected him.
- And he was able to cut across personalities
- and other barriers that would otherwise keep people
- apart, and bring them together.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- Wrap things up here, I think.
- BILL VALENTI: You want to do a memorialize John
- Washburn for a minute, or has somebody already covered him?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, not yet.
- You were the only one that had earmarked maybe even talking
- about him.
- If we can, yeah, let's just talk about who John Washburn was.
- Because his notoriety in Rochester,
- because he was one of the first public officials
- to be diagnosed with AIDS.
- BILL VALENTI: Yeah.
- John Washburn was the first real face of AIDS in Rochester.
- He was a friend before he was a patient, like a lot of patients
- in those days.
- I met him about 1981 or so, I was
- separated from my wife and living in an apartment,
- and then moved to a house.
- We were invited to a garden party that--
- guy who mowed my lawn, Kraig Pannell was a friend
- of John's--
- had show off his work, his creativity.
- And I had heard of John, but never met him.
- And in those days, didn't know a lot of people, so I was always
- looking around to make the right friends, and get connected.
- And he approached me, and it was the beginning
- of a very interesting, eye opening kind of experience.
- Because I was just totally inexperienced at the time.
- But he was smart, he was witty.
- It took a bit to keep up with him
- in terms of the wit, and the repertoire,
- and the back and forth.
- But he was an interesting role model for me,
- because he was a professional guy,
- he was smart, versatile, all of those things.
- And was fairly well known, and out to a lot of people
- who didn't seem to mind.
- Superintendent of Brighton schools who moved here
- from New York in the late '70s.
- And then by the early 1980s--
- by about 1983 or so--
- was starting to get sick, and became a patient.
- Now, what he did--
- and this was at a time when HIV and AIDS
- were totally stigmatized, because of the gay men,
- IV drug connection.
- People were fearful of the contagion
- piece, and all of that.
- But he decided around 1985 that he would retire
- from the Brighton schools.
- And then begin to map out what he called
- his exit from the planet.
- But included being public about his AIDS status,
- and trying to teach people--
- be an educator, an AIDS educator--
- for schools, teachers, school districts.
- And he did that.
- And when he went public with his disease, it was--
- we still published the Times Union, the evening paper,
- in Rochester-- and it was in the Times Union.
- And I stood with the nurse who worked with us at the time,
- we were still at the Strong clinic.
- And just sort of looked at each other,
- because he was a patient there.
- And kind of wondered, well, what next?
- What comes next for him?
- And what he did was he just kept going.
- And he was a very effective communicator, very articulate,
- very funny, and very smart.
- And got the message across to a lot of people in the next four
- years or so, after he retired.
- Because he died in June 1989.
- So, from about 1985ish to '89, he was on the road constantly.
- And just did it, and made a real impact.
- The other impact it had on me was
- he was the first man I ever saw in drag.
- Never saw it before.
- Just opened my eyes to a lot of things.
- The dubious distinction of.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Two last questions here.
- The first question is, I want your thoughts
- on what it says about the Rochester community--
- and I don't mean the gay community--
- but I mean the city of Rochester, the Rochester
- region, and it's prompt and strong reaction
- to the AIDS crisis.
- What does that say about-- because we're pretty well known
- as being one of five cities in the world who
- is a very strong proponent about research,
- and care, and treatment.
- BILL VALENTI: The Rochester response to HIV.
- In a lot of ways, I really wasn't surprised.
- Based on some of the people I knew, industry around here--
- a fairly well educated workforce--
- and people who get it.
- And I think that Rochester, the community response,
- was really remarkable.
- And is a reflection on what's really underneath this place.
- And you can say, oh, downtown is shot, and Kodak is gone,
- and all of that.
- But it's the people that really made a difference.
- And it was really gratifying to be
- able to mobilize people who got it.
- Because when we first started to approach people
- about the Community Health Network idea of moving out
- of Strong into this community HIV setting,
- there were a lot of people who signed on before there was even
- a door to walk in.
- And we were able to sort of act as catalysts to get people
- mobilized, and made a clear case for what was going on.
- But it was really the people that responded.
- But Rochester, I think, has the reputation
- of being philanthropic on many levels,
- and they were with this.
- Because people got it and, in fact,
- understood that this was serious business.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- Considering where we are today, how far we've come--
- not only just related to AIDS and HIV, but just in general
- as a gay community, the achievements
- we've made so far--
- gay marriage and domestic partnership benefits, and all
- that stuff.
- What would your message be to the generations coming up?
- BILL VALENTI: To the generations coming up.
- I would say that you have the opportunity
- to do some good in the world, some way, somehow.
- Think about it.
- Because the climate is better than it's ever
- been in terms of allowing you to be yourself,
- do what you want to do, and do some good,
- without holding you back the way people were held back--
- or stigmatized-- in years past.
- So take advantage of the opportunity, do it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- All right.
- That's a wrap.
- BILL VALENTI: Fun.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You're one of the other people
- I could interview for probably three hours.
- But we don't have three hours.