Video Interview, Bob Day, May 23, 2016
- CREW: OK, sir, I am rolling.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Bob, just for prosperity, just actually
- for a microphone check, I just need
- you to give me the correct spelling
- of your first and last name.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- R-O-B-E-R-T. D-A-Y.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- I know we call you Bob, but when we put your name on screen
- do you prefer Robert?
- ROBERT DAY: I have no preference.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- ROBERT DAY: No, no.
- I'm usually Bob Day, two words.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- ROBERT DAY: But most people say it all together, Bob Day.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Bob Day.
- OK.
- So, like I said, this is just a conversation between you and I.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, we're interested right now in talking
- about Rochester in the 1950s, 1960s
- and primarily what was the gay scene like in Rochester
- back then?
- Where did you go to find other gay people?
- ROBERT DAY: Oh what was the gay scene like?
- It was very confined and very underground
- and it was mostly centered on Front Street in two bars
- down there.
- But then, too, I imagine, there was private clicks and parties
- and things like that.
- But there wasn't a lot of public type of stuff
- and a public display and things like it is today.
- By display I mean open relationships and people
- could tell there is a couple walking down the street
- or in a restaurant or something like that.
- But it was very, very closeted, you know?
- And people were--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
- We have four church bells to get through at the moment,
- because it's four o'clock.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's just step it back just
- a little bit about how Rochester back in the fifties and sixties
- was very closeted.
- ROBERT DAY: Yes.
- Because people were closeted with their families,
- with the work situation and things like that.
- It wasn't as free to be-- let me put it
- that way-- free to be like today.
- And I really can see that difference now
- in 20/20 hindsight how that was.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But from your own perspective,
- you were out there.
- You were going to some of the bars, you know?
- I mean, what was it like?
- What was it like going to Front Street
- and was that your only social outlet?
- ROBERT DAY: No, because I was in school.
- I went to school in downtown Rochester
- at RIT before it moved to Henrietta.
- And so there's class activities by classmates and things,
- you know?
- And then after they went home to the dorm to study,
- I guess I had some other activities,
- I wasn't quite through yet, and then
- I just walked up Main Street and then to Front Street.
- I wasn't too much with the movies and things like that.
- And then there's some dances.
- And my life is sort of bifurcated, you know,
- cut up in three parts, type of thing.
- There's the students and the white people I hung around with
- and then sometimes I'd go over to the (unintelligible)
- Hall which is on (unintelligible) Street
- and listen to jazz and stuff and I'd be around black people
- and then I'd run down the Front Street
- and be around gay people.
- And there's an old TV series that said, I led three lives.
- This is the way some of us lived in that time, you know?
- There was a gay life and a professional life or whatever,
- like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you ever fearful of being exposed?
- Of being found out as a gay man?
- ROBERT DAY: Yes, yes, especially at school because, you know,
- you can be expelled or something like that if they found out.
- And then the ridicule and things like that.
- I lied about it, too, to go into the service
- because, you know, they'd ask the question,
- "Do you have homosexual tendencies?"
- And I hesitated because I was a Boy Scout once
- and never tell a lie.
- Then I put it down boldly, no, saying, no, there's
- no tendencies, you know?
- I'm full blown, there's no question about it.
- And so that sort of cleared my conscience.
- But there was that type of stuff about being honest
- and still, you know, protecting yourself a little bit
- and things like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: If you could kind of walk me
- through the experience of you're leaving the RIT dorm,
- you're walking down Main Street, and then you
- got to take that turn onto Front Street.
- Talk to me about what was going on with you emotionally
- and mentally in that experience, knowing where were you going.
- ROBERT DAY: Well, there's always the thought, oh,
- am I going to score today?
- Is Mr. Right going to be there or Mr. Right Away?
- I don't know which would show up.
- Most times, neither.
- And then the other thing is who's there, you know?
- And you look up and down the street
- both ways to see if you recognize
- anybody or anything like that and then
- you'd make a quick dash down through there.
- But there was a little bit of trepidation and things
- like that.
- And then even when you get in there,
- you don't know who's going to be there.
- And I never stopped to think, well,
- what are they doing there, themselves?
- But, you know, you may run into somebody and say, oh my gosh,
- my cover's been blown.
- But consequently, there's were, too,
- but I never looked at it in that light.
- And so there was a lot of stuff of,
- like, going underground and things like that.
- And then when you're in there, in that situation,
- you never know what's going to happen,
- if a raid or something's going to come on
- or your name it's going to come out somewhere
- or something like that.
- So, yeah, there was that edge to it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So describe for me Front Street.
- What was it like?
- What did it look like?
- What was the atmosphere like?
- ROBERT DAY: Oh, wow.
- It was-- I used to call it whores, cutthroat, and thieves
- or something like that.
- There were pawn shops and there were bars
- and it was sort of Skid Row-ey and the further
- you went down Front Street till you get down
- to International Hotel it was sort of people that were
- downed and things like that.
- And a live chicken market, I can remember
- that, and things like that.
- It was a fun street.
- I don't know why it reminded me of New York
- down there in the Lower East Side or something like that.
- But it sort of had that flavor of that
- and you know, the pawn shops and second hand things.
- I'm trying to remember, I think there's
- some legitimate businesses there,
- if my memory is serving me right.
- I think there's a meat market down there called Cats.
- It gets me.
- I thought that was a good name for a meat market.
- And tile companies and things like that, yeah, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There was a couple
- places down there that you were a regular at.
- ROBERT DAY: Yeah, um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about some of the--
- you know, there's Martha's and Dick's.
- Talk to me about those two places
- and why did you go there?
- ROBERT DAY: Oh, well I like--
- my mind is going on me again.
- Ma Martin's, there we go.
- It just came back.
- Because people were more real in there.
- In Martha's it's sort of some thought they were Tony
- gay guys, type of thing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You know what, I'm
- going to have you start out your answer to me
- as though I've never even heard of any of these places.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Since-- you know, down
- on Front Street there was these places called, whatever.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- That was called Ma Martin's and Dick's Tavern,
- they were close by.
- And then further down the street there was one by Peggy.
- And I can't think of what she had
- her name was Peg and Larry's that's what it was.
- And then she moved to the State Street
- and became the Bizarre Lounge.
- But anyhow, so there's three sort of like--
- By day in Ma Martin's, her husband
- was there and there's just the regular--
- I hate to use the pejorative, but grubby type of people.
- You know, the people on Front Street,
- every city has a Front Street, I guess.
- And then at night when she came to take over,
- more gays would come in because of getting off of work
- or they just blossomed at night, I guess.
- And then the story goes--
- that was sort of a rundown bar type of thing.
- And then Dick's the next door.
- Dick Gruttadauria.
- That was not very well populated or anything.
- Maybe there was a few people in there drinking.
- But one day there was a big crowd at Ma Martin's
- and so they went over to Dick's and when Dick came in
- to count the cash, he asked his wife, where'd all this money
- come from?
- She said, oh, those gay boys came over from next door.
- And it started like that.
- And so that's the way it was but it was--
- most of the-- what.
- The ones that went to Dick's Tavern,
- they'd wear saddle shoes, you know, look like the singers.
- Oh, my mind goes.
- But I just can see the bow ties and the blazers and whatnot.
- And so they're a little more dressier and not so
- down and out.
- And then down at Peg and Larry's,
- they were just sort of--
- we call them sort of bisexuals.
- There were men that did go one way or the other way
- and all that other type of stuff.
- But they weren't all gay or something like that.
- And then, too, there was a few lesbians
- sprinkled in there too and whatnot.
- So it was fun.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So I have to ask you,
- because you were a gay man who was out and about, which
- was kind of unusual in that time period,
- but you were also a Black gay man.
- I mean, with everything that was going on in the fifties
- and sixties within the black community,
- were you living in a double-edged sword, there?
- Were you finding any discrimination
- at the gay bars as a black man?
- I mean, you know, even today, being
- gay in the black community is not readily talked about.
- ROBERT DAY: Yeah.
- And you're right, there.
- And I hadn't had all that much engagement
- with the black community.
- I have to go back again.
- I am a country boy.
- I lived in a small town.
- And I just grew up differently.
- And my first partner, lover, something was a Jewish man
- and he told me, he said, you got more white middle class values
- than I do, you know?
- Because he had the Jewish values and things like that.
- So my perspective was different than being an inner city
- type of people.
- And I'm not putting any people who were
- black living in the inner city.
- But then there was a black community in the country
- also in Caledonia and Avon and Mumford and Geneseo.
- So I was a country black, as opposed to a city
- person of color.
- And so there's that little differential.
- So being in the community and doing
- loads of sports that the black city youth would do
- or the black church, you know?
- I grew up in a little lily white Methodist Church.
- The minister would put you to sleep on Sunday afternoon
- and whatnot.
- So there is that.
- Now, you asked the part about being
- uncomfortable with different races.
- There was a line there, I could feel it,
- but I didn't find discomfort in that.
- And I also--
- I don't know, I guess I was just brazen and didn't care.
- I felt like I was cut loose in the middle of nowhere,
- you know?
- I didn't have roots in this community
- or that community or something else.
- So it didn't seem like I had a whole lot to lose.
- But I certainly didn't want to embarrass my family in any way.
- And that was a core value that I had
- is to not do anything to embarrass my family.
- And that's it.
- I have to smile because before you started this
- you said, oh, let me put something on your face
- so the shine will not come through and stuff.
- But I remember when I was at school,
- it was quite fashionable to get pancake makeup and stuff
- and I'd put that on before I'd go out.
- I don't know, there's a group of us
- that had to do sort of that type of stuff and whatnot.
- So it's not my first experience with putting powder on my face.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me look at it different way,
- because you just mentioned this, your first relationship,
- you were in an interracial relationship,
- an interracial gay relationship.
- Any reaction from the rest of the community about that?
- Did you ever feel like people had
- any kind of negative attitudes towards you
- at any of the gay bars?
- ROBERT DAY: No.
- No.
- Because people would talk.
- But, you know, the intimacy, let's meet for dinner, let's
- come over to my place or something, that wasn't there.
- Yeah.
- There's two of them.
- And it was interracial.
- And I met him at Ma Martin's one night.
- So there was something because he was in the service,
- he was an officer and a gentleman
- and I wanted to volunteer for my active service
- and then come back we were going to live happily
- ever after in the little white house with a picket fence.
- Well, that dream didn't come true, you know?
- But there was a time when he and I were looking for an apartment
- together.
- I got the old treatment of, oh, it was just rented,
- you know, and I'm sorry it's taken.
- And inside I was confused, I didn't
- know if it was because it was a gay couple,
- if they read that or if they just read the racial thing,
- you know, and whatnot.
- So that was that one.
- And then the second one was with a married man.
- The Jewish man was married but their marriage was breaking up
- and things at that time.
- And I met him in a gay--
- not gay, pseudo gay which was a Town and Country
- across from the Eastman Theater.
- And I'd come from a concert and was sitting in there
- and all of a sudden I saw these big brown eyes
- blinking and winking and stuff and it took off
- for seventeen years.
- But we did things together.
- We'd go to health club together, we'd go to dinner together
- and stuff like that.
- But we didn't have a circle of friends
- around us, maybe one or two.
- One in particular had a country house down
- (unintelligible) valley south of Naples
- and spend weekends down there and stuff like that.
- But a big social network and things like that wasn't there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, after I went back and looked
- at the pre-interview we did with you
- and talking about the different decades and going through it,
- it seemed to me like you pretty much got along OK
- throughout the years, that nothing huge happened to you
- that could have happened.
- You know, fifties and sixties and you're
- a black man here in the city.
- You know, you kind of got through that unscathed.
- And as a gay man, you kind of got through life
- unscathed which a lot of people had horrific experiences,
- you know, discrimination and brutal violence.
- But I want to know from you, was there any time in those years
- that it wasn't so good.
- Was there any times that it was really
- kind of challenging from day to day,
- particularly as a gay man for you?
- ROBERT DAY: Well there was always
- that fear of being exposed.
- But then, too, I come from a whole line of survivors
- and I'm sort of defiant, too, you know?
- And just to know how to keep a low profile.
- Because you know, the nail that stands up
- will get smacked down.
- And so keep that profile but not to crumble
- beneath the pressure.
- I-- frightening experiences is finding
- somebody that is going to take advantage of you
- and being on guard against that.
- And that was one time that that went down.
- I did have emotional bottoms because of--
- what do you want to call it--
- my sexuality, it did cause problems.
- Not problems, but they were events that were traumatic
- for me, let me put it that way.
- And that was with the Army, getting a general discharge out
- of that.
- And that triggered sort of a depression that
- exacerbated a lot of drinking that took me all the way
- into the disease of alcoholism.
- And then to come back from that was good.
- And I did it all without being referred to rehab or anything
- like that.
- You know, I didn't go away like the stars
- and I didn't miss a day at work, neither.
- Fortunately, I worked for a place
- that was understanding of the disease and whatnot.
- And even of the sexuality, too, you know?
- One guy that I had to dismiss was
- going to sue me and the place where
- we worked for reverse discrimination and things
- like that.
- And just being threatened with that, but human services came
- to me and said, "You don't have to worry about that, you know?"
- The laws came and everything like that.
- So those little incidences.
- You know, I flare up when he said reverse
- because he's going to say that all the gay people are sort
- of permitted and they can get along with things
- and then him--
- And so all that was poppycock and stuff.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You touched on something I
- might ask you about because I don't
- think we talked about this in your pre-interview.
- Were you discharged from the Army
- because they found out about sexual identity?
- ROBERT DAY: Yes.
- Yes, they found out about it because I told.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well tell me about--
- tell me that story.
- ROBERT DAY: Oh, that story.
- That story is-- oh, I'd like to say
- where it would make some sense.
- And I guess it would make sense.
- What happens the service, there's
- a three year commitment or something,
- like two years active duty and one in reserves.
- And so I did the active duty.
- And this lover that I was with, the officer and the gentleman,
- he came to Germany and we went on a beautiful weekend
- in Garmisch skiing and all this other type of stuff.
- And then when we came back we sort of broke up
- and that's when I started going into this depression.
- And then I went up to Camp Drum for a training thing.
- And at that time, there was a guy that was in Germany,
- the same place I was, that knew the same gay bar in Stuttgart
- so we went out.
- And then he picked somebody at this bar
- in Watertown driving back.
- Anyhow, my car was stolen by this person that
- had been picked up and whatnot.
- And they asked me, you know, what
- was going on and being depressed and in such a low thing,
- I tell them the whole story and things like that.
- So I more or less committed myself
- to saying that there was this gay activity and stuff that
- was going on.
- So then they had a court martial up there in Culver Road there,
- I think.
- And there was a black police officer, Charlie Price,
- and all of a sudden, he showed up at work one day
- and he said, "Bob, keep your mouth shut."
- And I just wanted some relief.
- I just didn't want all this stuff bottled up
- inside all the time.
- And he said, "You better get a lawyer."
- And then so I got Lloyd Hurst, who
- was part of the Human Rights Commission
- here in Rochester and stuff.
- And they had-- so it wasn't a dishonorable discharge but just
- general type of thing and whatnot.
- And then I went to get the record expunged because they
- were going to do that.
- I had to contact Louise Slaughter and everything else.
- She was going to see through it but all the records burned up
- in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri and there's
- nothing to go back and expunge, I guess.
- Nature took care of that.
- So that's what it was.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hey, can you see if those kids screaming
- are on this floor?
- And if so, give them hell.
- ROBERT DAY: Yeah.
- And you got a sensitive ear to pick up on that.
- It was traumatic and exacerbated a lot of stuff that went on.
- But it was so many years ago, you know?
- I've grown and gone beyond that type of stuff, too,
- and it's great.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Moving fast forward here to years later
- and your involvement-- you got involved
- with the faith community.
- ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Been doing a lot of work with gay activism
- and educating the faith community on the gay community.
- Talk a little bit about that.
- Talk to me how you got involved in the faith community
- and your role there in really trying to educate
- of who the community is.
- ROBERT DAY: OK, yeah, that's good.
- You know, I was brought up with faith.
- And so I walked away from it or was forced away
- or I just heard the negative messages coming out
- of the churches that are still coming out today,
- but not all of them.
- And then being African-American, when you're subjugated,
- you know, there's a faith that I think we have,
- a spiritual part of our being that is exemplified
- in the spirituals, you know?
- And we think of this life beyond and coming out
- of exile and things like that, that this is going to happen.
- So after I walked away from all that faith and spiritual stuff,
- life was pretty empty and dark for me.
- And then when I get into recovery, I go to a program
- and they said, you're a child of God and you're loved
- and he'll love you no matter what and go on, you know?
- Even then, I had trepidations.
- And I said, well, when these people find out that I'm gay,
- they're going to chase me out of here.
- And they said, no, we're not.
- And they didn't.
- So that went.
- I had to develop this--
- reconnect with this faith and spiritual part
- and go from there.
- And so then I met a person and there's
- a movement going in the Presbyterian Church
- called the More Light Movement.
- And a lot of people said, how did you get in that church?
- And I said, chasing a man.
- And that was the reason, one of the reasons I went.
- But then there was a good message of hope and welcomness
- and even trying to change some of the polity of the church.
- And then I got a part of that, got
- into that and then the next thing
- I know, I'm in Birmingham, Alabama,
- talking to the general assembly and giving a witness,
- as we say, or just tell them what it is.
- I also connected with Soul Force and picketed a Southern Baptist
- Convention and got arrested and didn't spend any time.
- And it was good company because Jimmy Creech, who's just here
- in Rochester who is a Methodist that was defrocked for marrying
- a gay couple, he was here for a lecture
- at the Colgate Rochester Divinity and stuff.
- And I had the privilege of giving a thank you to him
- and reminding him when he got arrested so many years ago.
- So there's a lot.
- And as you see with that advocacy in the church
- and some of the churches coming around for affirmative
- and welcoming people of all such orientations, it's coming.
- So that was a proactive type of thing
- that we could do, you know?
- And rather than being frustrated and stuff,
- we got to this part of saying, well,
- give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
- and the courage to change the things I can't and the wisdom
- to know the difference.
- And that's sort of directed my life all the way along.
- That some things I can do, you know, and some I can't.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We're going to focus on a couple of those.
- a second after this train goes by.
- CREW: Yes, thanks.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Let's just go back a little bit and focus a little more
- specifically.
- Tell me the story about speaking at the general assembly
- and being at Birmingham-
- CREW: Oh, wait.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I think it's gone.
- So this was the general assembly for the Presbyterian Church,
- right?
- ROBERT DAY: Yeah, the Presbyterian USA,
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, just tell me about it.
- Tell me what was it, what were you trying to do down there,
- and what was the reaction that you got?
- ROBERT DAY: It was relatively positive
- because it advanced some changes as they come along,
- you know how they sort of--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Take me back to the beginning.
- ROBERT DAY: Back to the beginning.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Take me back, you know,
- I was sent down to Birmingham, Alabama, for this general--
- start right at.
- ROBERT DAY: At the beginning of it.
- OK, every two years, I believe it is, they have this thing.
- For the last thirty years, they've
- been trying to advance changing the book of order
- and the polity of the church.
- And it goes and it comes and whatnot.
- This year we said that we'd like to change it
- to where anyone of faith, if they made all the requirements,
- they could be called to be ordained.
- And this sort of goes back with another group right here
- in Rochester that started which is called That All May Freely
- Serve that J.D. Spire was a part of.
- And I was on the board with her for a while, too.
- So we got to Birmingham and there was time allotted for us
- to present our arguments and they were well received
- and the law didn't change, but it
- did go to a committee that eventually brought it about.
- And then the opposition sort of overreached and said,
- anybody that was not living in a committed relationship--
- so the next thing you know, they're
- putting out half of the straight people (unintelligible).
- So it just didn't make sense, what they were doing.
- And so finally, this past year they
- said each church can make their decision.
- So it was dignified-- you know, in that type of setting,
- people listen to the arguments but there
- are some that are more fundamentalist that
- will get up and try to do all of their quoting of scripture
- and all these other rules that are losing more
- and more of their basis of upholding
- some of these whole things.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about the experience
- from your political standpoint of standing up
- there in front of fifteen hundred people
- as an openly gay man speaking to this congregation
- in Presbyterian leaders.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- It's empowering because there was advocates,
- you know, other advocates that were behind me
- and they were telling their stories also.
- There were lesbian pastors and the ones that
- had their credentials pulled, there
- were pastors that were blessing gay unions and their experience
- about what went on.
- And so it wasn't just me, it was a group
- and there was a lot of support around that.
- And it was empowering to say, well, here we are.
- And being legitimized and saying you are a person
- and we're listening and we're discerning and things
- like that.
- That was that part of that experience
- with that many people around there.
- My voice was there, you know, and it was great
- and I was quoting, "let justice raining down
- in righteousness like a mighty river"
- and I expect that from the church.
- And it's sort of written at the Martin Luther King
- memorial in Birmingham.
- And then there's that part of empowerment as a gay man,
- the other was the ambience and the atmosphere
- of that whole city of Birmingham.
- And I said, is this the place where the bombed churches
- and people died?
- And there's a big museum to that.
- I went to lunch and I walked into a restaurant
- with a man that was with our group whose daughter was
- a lesbian and he was supportive of Janie Spahr and all
- like that.
- And we sat in the restaurant and just twenty
- or thirty years ago, that would be unthinkable, you know,
- and whatnot.
- And to get on a street car and sit wherever I wanted
- and you think back on Rosa Parks and what she did.
- And so from that experience, I grew
- to go on with this gay part and the sexual part, too, you know?
- If you can accept the black, you put all that stuff aside
- after all those bulldogs and all that water hose and stuff like
- that, I can stand up in front of these people and say, hey,
- let's cut this charade and go on and talk about justice
- and equality for all and stuff like that
- and just act like Christians rather than hypocrites,
- you know?
- And so that's what was empowering.
- But it's not so much alone, There's
- a lot of people in unity and stuff like that.
- And it's the same empowerment I felt
- walking in Washington at some of the pride parades down there
- and shaking my fist at the Supreme Court building
- and hollering shame, shame over there
- to Reagan in the White House when they didn't even
- want to admit that there's AIDS things--
- So all that stuff is empowering when
- there was a lot of people that were going on
- and really, it's internal because we
- feel that stuff internally and that's where
- the truth is in there, too.
- So that's good.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to stay with this for just a little bit
- more.
- Again, back to that general assembly.
- ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Very simply, why were you there?
- What were you hoping to accomplish?
- ROBERT DAY: OK, why was I there?
- Because each church has--
- or it's presbytery has advocates that go.
- So I was chosen as an advocate and that's how I got to go.
- But I was chosen as an advocate because
- of being from a More Light church in the Genesee
- presbytery also with experience that all may freely serve.
- And so that's how I got there.
- And it was sort of like being thrown in the lake
- because I once--
- what do I want to say?
- I was a newly-minted Presbyterian
- and some of those Presbyterians are
- pretty dyed in the wool, type with their polity and whatnot
- and discernment, like we don't have a bishop telling us
- what to do, you know?
- We have to do all this through the sermon.
- And so that's how I got there.
- And then there was a group that was planning
- the presentation for the general assembly
- and that's called covenant network
- where these churches come together
- to say we're going to advance equality within our church
- and stuff.
- So I connected in with that group, too.
- So it wasn't just singularly and just by myself,
- it was just sort of serendipity that I got there and was
- with them.
- And--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Let's touch upon two things, then, that you mentioned.
- The More Light church.
- More Light church?
- ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Talk to me about the More Light church
- as though I'm someone who's never even heard of it.
- What was it?
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And why was it implemented in the Presbyterian
- Church?
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- Because there are people that read scripture for discernment,
- you know?
- And then this More Light is a part
- of a scripture that says, "more will be revealed
- and more light will be shed on it."
- So this is where they adopted that from.
- And--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can we pause for a second?
- ROBERT DAY: --so certain churches.
- CREW: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sounds like a chase.
- OK, let's go back to the beginning.
- I need you to first set up for me
- what's the More Light church--
- what it is and then explain to me how it came about.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- More Light church is a church that
- advocates for justice for all people
- and ordination of all people, regardless of gender
- or sexual identity and let's leave it there
- because it also has women and different abled
- and stuff like that.
- And so that's where that started.
- But it's mostly with the sexual orientation part.
- And some churches declare themselves
- to be More Light and willing to work for that and others don't
- because each church has to vote on are they going
- to take that stance or not.
- Here in Rochester, there's Downtown Presbyterian Church,
- Third Presbyterian Church, Calvary St. Andrews
- Presbyterian Church and I think that's about all.
- There may be another one but I can't say it right now.
- But there's others that are considering it, too, you know?
- And so that's the More Light concept
- but over the United States there's
- more More Light churches that are banding together.
- And so that's what the More Like movement is is to open up
- the church, the ordination standards
- where anyone that's gone through seminary and whatnot can go.
- And there's a lot going on in that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about Janie Spahr
- and that whole situation.
- And again, start at the beginning
- and tell me as though I've never heard the name Janie Spahr
- and what was that all about.
- ROBERT DAY: Janie Spahr is a dynamic women
- and I think she just likes hot water.
- And so she was called to Downtown Presbyterian Church
- There's a woman, a grand lady, Jenny Virginia Davidson, that
- was there and she was big in the national presbytery and stuff
- like being a delegate in a--
- very active and known nationwide.
- So she wanted to bring this to Downtown Presbyterian Church.
- But there's a little man out in Scottsville Presbyterian Church
- that said, oh, you can't have that,
- she's a self-avowed lesbian.
- He's since left that church and got divorced and everything
- else but, you know, heterosexuals
- can do anything like that.
- So then the Downtown set up this program
- and made Jenny an evangelist that would go out and just talk
- about what's going on and how people
- are being treated in the church that it's not really justice.
- And so she started this More Light movement
- that went on from that.
- Well, of course, you know, she's married people and as
- a matter of fact, when we had the general assembly in San
- Jose, California, that was an inspiring day too
- because California was marrying at that time
- and we went down to the city square
- and had this mass marriage and people were renewing their vows
- and Janie was there and marrying people with her robes on.
- So after that, they withdrew marriage in California
- and then the church brought up charges on her
- so that she couldn't use the liturgy from our church
- to do this.
- So she had another big court case, which she's lost.
- And she just keeps going and coming back and forth
- like that.
- So that's the More Light movement.
- And now there's another lady that's taken over from Janie
- and her name is Lisa Larges.
- And Lisa is another phenomenal person
- because she's sight challenged and for a good many years,
- since the seventies, she's been plodding along
- to get to have a church and be called to a church.
- And so she's almost there in Presbyterians
- of Redlands in California.
- And that's good.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Janie wasn't with More Light, was she?
- ROBERT DAY: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, where does the whole--
- ROBERT DAY: Oh no, no she's Freely Served.
- There's two groups that are for advocacy and maybe
- even the third one, too, because it's the Covenant Network,
- isn't it?
- Another.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so just talk to me briefly about That All
- May Freely Serve.
- What is it and how did it come about?
- ROBERT DAY: OK, well it came about here in Rochester
- and it's about bringing the church into--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It came out of the situation with Janie?
- Is that where it came out?
- ROBERT DAY: Yeah, because she couldn't--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, start there.
- Start at the beginning of the story there.
- ROBERT DAY: OK.
- I probably went over it too quickly.
- It started down there when she was
- called to Downtown Presbyterian Church
- and then they said she couldn't do it
- because it violated this Book of Order of not being in a--
- what do you want to call it--
- relationship with a man and woman, not heterosexual,
- that she was a lesbian and therefore not
- qualified to be a pastor.
- And so then they said that she's going to be an evangelist
- and she went around the country talking about the injustice
- within the church.
- And so that's really More Light, shining the light
- on the injustice and things like that.
- And it's still going on today.
- So that was one avenue and then there's
- other churches that claimed themselves to be More Light
- and they're doing similar work but not the same work
- because they don't have an evangelist going
- to every church, it's just the church
- that's here in this locality, we welcome all people
- to worship here and they can be in all offices and things
- like that.
- And so that's another national organization.
- So there's three large organizations
- like that in the Presbyterian Church.
- There's a covenant network that brings all these together
- and they have a staff that, well,
- do legal work and everything else to go along with it.
- It's really quite extensive.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want you to kind of connect the dots for me
- a little bit of how something like the incident with Janie
- Spahr and being involved with that has influenced
- the work that you continue to do now
- within the faith community for gay rights activism.
- ROBERT DAY: Oh well, we can see progress, you know,
- and it's forward and backwards.
- But you know when you have--
- what do I want to say--
- justice on your side, you know that you're standing on right,
- you know?
- That gives you courage to go on.
- But there is that other force that is holding us back,
- you know?
- And we can see today in this country
- with the number of people who are looking at gay--
- I hate that word, gay marriage-- at marriage for all people,
- it's not necessarily gay or anything, it's just marriage.
- Marriage equality.
- And so they're begin to see that more and more.
- And the new numbers are out, it's above 50 percent.
- But it's been slow.
- And even going on in Albany and talking
- to some of our representatives riding those buses down there,
- you know, they're not going to change
- because they think that most of the people they represent
- don't want it.
- And it's not a farce, but, you know, our presence is there,
- and we're in their face all the time and things like that.
- And some of them go down because they voted a certain way.
- But there is progress there and so
- that's what encourages me to keep going on because, well,
- two steps forward, one step back.
- Well, even Evelyn, too, you know,
- she's been in the trenches a long time.
- And so we feel not being moved.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There's one last question here
- that just came to mind and it can be somewhat
- of a sensitive question.
- But it comes to mind because there is still
- such a stigma within the African-American community
- about gays and lesbians.
- What would you, as a black man, say
- to the African-American community basically
- to tell them to get over it?
- What would you-- what could you tell
- them to really kind of open up their minds a little bit?
- ROBERT DAY: I'm going to say, remember.
- I'm just going to say, remember.
- One and-- I've forgotten her partner's name.
- I think it was Susan.
- They were married in St. Mary's Park over there
- and Reverend Cal he did it.
- And somebody interviewed me on one of the radio stations
- and I said, "It doesn't matter if you're beaten at a whip
- because you're black or if you're gay,
- it stings the same."
- And I have to remind the black African-Americans,
- remember when you were a slave?
- Remember when you were discriminated against no more
- but the color of your skin?
- Now what did you have to do with the color of your skin?
- Well, if you believe in medical science, or science,
- a gay person does not choose to be gay,
- it is just a part of the natural condition.
- And to hold that against and to discriminate against them,
- is just the same discrimination that was
- afflicted afflicted upon us.
- And I had to thank my cousin at my uncle's funeral.
- His father was a Redtail, which is one of the Tuskegee pilots.
- And there is a black church in Petersburg, Virginia,
- where the funeral was held and his father
- had built the church, you know, it was brick, was a mason.
- And during the eulogy, my cousin said his father told him,
- he said, my father was always fair
- and he told this to the Time Magazine, he took it out
- and Anita Bryant was--
- they were covering her and all these
- remarks it hurts God, you know, save the church.
- And he says, you just take homosexual out of there
- and put black in there and it's all the same.
- And he said that in a black church
- and you could feel a little, you know, thing come back.
- But that message was getting through
- and that's the message I want to talk about, too, you know?
- You just change the noun and it's the same old mess
- all the way down the line.
- And discrimination by any other word is still discrimination.
- And you know, I could feel sorry for this woman
- because she was taught that and she believes that but it
- was Mother's Day or something and here she
- was big with her big pink dress on, a big pink hat,
- you know, those crowns that they all wear and pink lipstick
- and she talked about, well, it's just not right,
- it's just not right, the Bible says this.
- And I said, lady, get over it and you're
- in a balloon that's just way off base
- and the twentieth century is coming
- and you'd better get on it.
- And it could be an ally.
- But then the other thing, they'll
- raise a whole lot of money on that stuff, too,
- and they can fire up a congregation
- and that's what they're using it to do,
- a whipping boy and stuff like that.
- That's another thing that I'm resentful for and whatnot.
- And you know, you sit up there and you clap for all these.
- Yeah brother and yeah man and stuff like that and he's
- running around there trying to get little boys
- and take them down, you know, maybe
- going to jail for thirty years.
- And that's right there in Rochester, so.
- You know how that mop flops, too.
- And that's it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, well thank you.
- ROBERT DAY: OK, well you got a lot to edit.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we do.
- Lisa's going to--
- Jill's going to get the microphone of of you.
- ROBERT DAY: Oh, OK.