Video Interview, Bob Day, May 23, 2016

  • CREW: OK, sir, I am rolling.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Bob, just for prosperity, just actually
  • for a microphone check, I just need
  • you to give me the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • R-O-B-E-R-T. D-A-Y.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • I know we call you Bob, but when we put your name on screen
  • do you prefer Robert?
  • ROBERT DAY: I have no preference.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • ROBERT DAY: No, no.
  • I'm usually Bob Day, two words.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • ROBERT DAY: But most people say it all together, Bob Day.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Bob Day.
  • OK.
  • So, like I said, this is just a conversation between you and I.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, we're interested right now in talking
  • about Rochester in the 1950s, 1960s
  • and primarily what was the gay scene like in Rochester
  • back then?
  • Where did you go to find other gay people?
  • ROBERT DAY: Oh what was the gay scene like?
  • It was very confined and very underground
  • and it was mostly centered on Front Street in two bars
  • down there.
  • But then, too, I imagine, there was private clicks and parties
  • and things like that.
  • But there wasn't a lot of public type of stuff
  • and a public display and things like it is today.
  • By display I mean open relationships and people
  • could tell there is a couple walking down the street
  • or in a restaurant or something like that.
  • But it was very, very closeted, you know?
  • And people were--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
  • We have four church bells to get through at the moment,
  • because it's four o'clock.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's just step it back just
  • a little bit about how Rochester back in the fifties and sixties
  • was very closeted.
  • ROBERT DAY: Yes.
  • Because people were closeted with their families,
  • with the work situation and things like that.
  • It wasn't as free to be-- let me put it
  • that way-- free to be like today.
  • And I really can see that difference now
  • in 20/20 hindsight how that was.
  • Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But from your own perspective,
  • you were out there.
  • You were going to some of the bars, you know?
  • I mean, what was it like?
  • What was it like going to Front Street
  • and was that your only social outlet?
  • ROBERT DAY: No, because I was in school.
  • I went to school in downtown Rochester
  • at RIT before it moved to Henrietta.
  • And so there's class activities by classmates and things,
  • you know?
  • And then after they went home to the dorm to study,
  • I guess I had some other activities,
  • I wasn't quite through yet, and then
  • I just walked up Main Street and then to Front Street.
  • I wasn't too much with the movies and things like that.
  • And then there's some dances.
  • And my life is sort of bifurcated, you know,
  • cut up in three parts, type of thing.
  • There's the students and the white people I hung around with
  • and then sometimes I'd go over to the (unintelligible)
  • Hall which is on (unintelligible) Street
  • and listen to jazz and stuff and I'd be around black people
  • and then I'd run down the Front Street
  • and be around gay people.
  • And there's an old TV series that said, I led three lives.
  • This is the way some of us lived in that time, you know?
  • There was a gay life and a professional life or whatever,
  • like that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you ever fearful of being exposed?
  • Of being found out as a gay man?
  • ROBERT DAY: Yes, yes, especially at school because, you know,
  • you can be expelled or something like that if they found out.
  • And then the ridicule and things like that.
  • I lied about it, too, to go into the service
  • because, you know, they'd ask the question,
  • "Do you have homosexual tendencies?"
  • And I hesitated because I was a Boy Scout once
  • and never tell a lie.
  • Then I put it down boldly, no, saying, no, there's
  • no tendencies, you know?
  • I'm full blown, there's no question about it.
  • And so that sort of cleared my conscience.
  • But there was that type of stuff about being honest
  • and still, you know, protecting yourself a little bit
  • and things like that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: If you could kind of walk me
  • through the experience of you're leaving the RIT dorm,
  • you're walking down Main Street, and then you
  • got to take that turn onto Front Street.
  • Talk to me about what was going on with you emotionally
  • and mentally in that experience, knowing where were you going.
  • ROBERT DAY: Well, there's always the thought, oh,
  • am I going to score today?
  • Is Mr. Right going to be there or Mr. Right Away?
  • I don't know which would show up.
  • Most times, neither.
  • And then the other thing is who's there, you know?
  • And you look up and down the street
  • both ways to see if you recognize
  • anybody or anything like that and then
  • you'd make a quick dash down through there.
  • But there was a little bit of trepidation and things
  • like that.
  • And then even when you get in there,
  • you don't know who's going to be there.
  • And I never stopped to think, well,
  • what are they doing there, themselves?
  • But, you know, you may run into somebody and say, oh my gosh,
  • my cover's been blown.
  • But consequently, there's were, too,
  • but I never looked at it in that light.
  • And so there was a lot of stuff of,
  • like, going underground and things like that.
  • And then when you're in there, in that situation,
  • you never know what's going to happen,
  • if a raid or something's going to come on
  • or your name it's going to come out somewhere
  • or something like that.
  • So, yeah, there was that edge to it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So describe for me Front Street.
  • What was it like?
  • What did it look like?
  • What was the atmosphere like?
  • ROBERT DAY: Oh, wow.
  • It was-- I used to call it whores, cutthroat, and thieves
  • or something like that.
  • There were pawn shops and there were bars
  • and it was sort of Skid Row-ey and the further
  • you went down Front Street till you get down
  • to International Hotel it was sort of people that were
  • downed and things like that.
  • And a live chicken market, I can remember
  • that, and things like that.
  • It was a fun street.
  • I don't know why it reminded me of New York
  • down there in the Lower East Side or something like that.
  • But it sort of had that flavor of that
  • and you know, the pawn shops and second hand things.
  • I'm trying to remember, I think there's
  • some legitimate businesses there,
  • if my memory is serving me right.
  • I think there's a meat market down there called Cats.
  • It gets me.
  • I thought that was a good name for a meat market.
  • And tile companies and things like that, yeah, yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: There was a couple
  • places down there that you were a regular at.
  • ROBERT DAY: Yeah, um-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about some of the--
  • you know, there's Martha's and Dick's.
  • Talk to me about those two places
  • and why did you go there?
  • ROBERT DAY: Oh, well I like--
  • my mind is going on me again.
  • Ma Martin's, there we go.
  • It just came back.
  • Because people were more real in there.
  • In Martha's it's sort of some thought they were Tony
  • gay guys, type of thing.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know what, I'm
  • going to have you start out your answer to me
  • as though I've never even heard of any of these places.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Since-- you know, down
  • on Front Street there was these places called, whatever.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • That was called Ma Martin's and Dick's Tavern,
  • they were close by.
  • And then further down the street there was one by Peggy.
  • And I can't think of what she had
  • her name was Peg and Larry's that's what it was.
  • And then she moved to the State Street
  • and became the Bizarre Lounge.
  • But anyhow, so there's three sort of like--
  • By day in Ma Martin's, her husband
  • was there and there's just the regular--
  • I hate to use the pejorative, but grubby type of people.
  • You know, the people on Front Street,
  • every city has a Front Street, I guess.
  • And then at night when she came to take over,
  • more gays would come in because of getting off of work
  • or they just blossomed at night, I guess.
  • And then the story goes--
  • that was sort of a rundown bar type of thing.
  • And then Dick's the next door.
  • Dick Gruttadauria.
  • That was not very well populated or anything.
  • Maybe there was a few people in there drinking.
  • But one day there was a big crowd at Ma Martin's
  • and so they went over to Dick's and when Dick came in
  • to count the cash, he asked his wife, where'd all this money
  • come from?
  • She said, oh, those gay boys came over from next door.
  • And it started like that.
  • And so that's the way it was but it was--
  • most of the-- what.
  • The ones that went to Dick's Tavern,
  • they'd wear saddle shoes, you know, look like the singers.
  • Oh, my mind goes.
  • But I just can see the bow ties and the blazers and whatnot.
  • And so they're a little more dressier and not so
  • down and out.
  • And then down at Peg and Larry's,
  • they were just sort of--
  • we call them sort of bisexuals.
  • There were men that did go one way or the other way
  • and all that other type of stuff.
  • But they weren't all gay or something like that.
  • And then, too, there was a few lesbians
  • sprinkled in there too and whatnot.
  • So it was fun.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So I have to ask you,
  • because you were a gay man who was out and about, which
  • was kind of unusual in that time period,
  • but you were also a Black gay man.
  • I mean, with everything that was going on in the fifties
  • and sixties within the black community,
  • were you living in a double-edged sword, there?
  • Were you finding any discrimination
  • at the gay bars as a black man?
  • I mean, you know, even today, being
  • gay in the black community is not readily talked about.
  • ROBERT DAY: Yeah.
  • And you're right, there.
  • And I hadn't had all that much engagement
  • with the black community.
  • I have to go back again.
  • I am a country boy.
  • I lived in a small town.
  • And I just grew up differently.
  • And my first partner, lover, something was a Jewish man
  • and he told me, he said, you got more white middle class values
  • than I do, you know?
  • Because he had the Jewish values and things like that.
  • So my perspective was different than being an inner city
  • type of people.
  • And I'm not putting any people who were
  • black living in the inner city.
  • But then there was a black community in the country
  • also in Caledonia and Avon and Mumford and Geneseo.
  • So I was a country black, as opposed to a city
  • person of color.
  • And so there's that little differential.
  • So being in the community and doing
  • loads of sports that the black city youth would do
  • or the black church, you know?
  • I grew up in a little lily white Methodist Church.
  • The minister would put you to sleep on Sunday afternoon
  • and whatnot.
  • So there is that.
  • Now, you asked the part about being
  • uncomfortable with different races.
  • There was a line there, I could feel it,
  • but I didn't find discomfort in that.
  • And I also--
  • I don't know, I guess I was just brazen and didn't care.
  • I felt like I was cut loose in the middle of nowhere,
  • you know?
  • I didn't have roots in this community
  • or that community or something else.
  • So it didn't seem like I had a whole lot to lose.
  • But I certainly didn't want to embarrass my family in any way.
  • And that was a core value that I had
  • is to not do anything to embarrass my family.
  • And that's it.
  • I have to smile because before you started this
  • you said, oh, let me put something on your face
  • so the shine will not come through and stuff.
  • But I remember when I was at school,
  • it was quite fashionable to get pancake makeup and stuff
  • and I'd put that on before I'd go out.
  • I don't know, there's a group of us
  • that had to do sort of that type of stuff and whatnot.
  • So it's not my first experience with putting powder on my face.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me look at it different way,
  • because you just mentioned this, your first relationship,
  • you were in an interracial relationship,
  • an interracial gay relationship.
  • Any reaction from the rest of the community about that?
  • Did you ever feel like people had
  • any kind of negative attitudes towards you
  • at any of the gay bars?
  • ROBERT DAY: No.
  • No.
  • Because people would talk.
  • But, you know, the intimacy, let's meet for dinner, let's
  • come over to my place or something, that wasn't there.
  • Yeah.
  • There's two of them.
  • And it was interracial.
  • And I met him at Ma Martin's one night.
  • So there was something because he was in the service,
  • he was an officer and a gentleman
  • and I wanted to volunteer for my active service
  • and then come back we were going to live happily
  • ever after in the little white house with a picket fence.
  • Well, that dream didn't come true, you know?
  • But there was a time when he and I were looking for an apartment
  • together.
  • I got the old treatment of, oh, it was just rented,
  • you know, and I'm sorry it's taken.
  • And inside I was confused, I didn't
  • know if it was because it was a gay couple,
  • if they read that or if they just read the racial thing,
  • you know, and whatnot.
  • So that was that one.
  • And then the second one was with a married man.
  • The Jewish man was married but their marriage was breaking up
  • and things at that time.
  • And I met him in a gay--
  • not gay, pseudo gay which was a Town and Country
  • across from the Eastman Theater.
  • And I'd come from a concert and was sitting in there
  • and all of a sudden I saw these big brown eyes
  • blinking and winking and stuff and it took off
  • for seventeen years.
  • But we did things together.
  • We'd go to health club together, we'd go to dinner together
  • and stuff like that.
  • But we didn't have a circle of friends
  • around us, maybe one or two.
  • One in particular had a country house down
  • (unintelligible) valley south of Naples
  • and spend weekends down there and stuff like that.
  • But a big social network and things like that wasn't there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, after I went back and looked
  • at the pre-interview we did with you
  • and talking about the different decades and going through it,
  • it seemed to me like you pretty much got along OK
  • throughout the years, that nothing huge happened to you
  • that could have happened.
  • You know, fifties and sixties and you're
  • a black man here in the city.
  • You know, you kind of got through that unscathed.
  • And as a gay man, you kind of got through life
  • unscathed which a lot of people had horrific experiences,
  • you know, discrimination and brutal violence.
  • But I want to know from you, was there any time in those years
  • that it wasn't so good.
  • Was there any times that it was really
  • kind of challenging from day to day,
  • particularly as a gay man for you?
  • ROBERT DAY: Well there was always
  • that fear of being exposed.
  • But then, too, I come from a whole line of survivors
  • and I'm sort of defiant, too, you know?
  • And just to know how to keep a low profile.
  • Because you know, the nail that stands up
  • will get smacked down.
  • And so keep that profile but not to crumble
  • beneath the pressure.
  • I-- frightening experiences is finding
  • somebody that is going to take advantage of you
  • and being on guard against that.
  • And that was one time that that went down.
  • I did have emotional bottoms because of--
  • what do you want to call it--
  • my sexuality, it did cause problems.
  • Not problems, but they were events that were traumatic
  • for me, let me put it that way.
  • And that was with the Army, getting a general discharge out
  • of that.
  • And that triggered sort of a depression that
  • exacerbated a lot of drinking that took me all the way
  • into the disease of alcoholism.
  • And then to come back from that was good.
  • And I did it all without being referred to rehab or anything
  • like that.
  • You know, I didn't go away like the stars
  • and I didn't miss a day at work, neither.
  • Fortunately, I worked for a place
  • that was understanding of the disease and whatnot.
  • And even of the sexuality, too, you know?
  • One guy that I had to dismiss was
  • going to sue me and the place where
  • we worked for reverse discrimination and things
  • like that.
  • And just being threatened with that, but human services came
  • to me and said, "You don't have to worry about that, you know?"
  • The laws came and everything like that.
  • So those little incidences.
  • You know, I flare up when he said reverse
  • because he's going to say that all the gay people are sort
  • of permitted and they can get along with things
  • and then him--
  • And so all that was poppycock and stuff.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You touched on something I
  • might ask you about because I don't
  • think we talked about this in your pre-interview.
  • Were you discharged from the Army
  • because they found out about sexual identity?
  • ROBERT DAY: Yes.
  • Yes, they found out about it because I told.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well tell me about--
  • tell me that story.
  • ROBERT DAY: Oh, that story.
  • That story is-- oh, I'd like to say
  • where it would make some sense.
  • And I guess it would make sense.
  • What happens the service, there's
  • a three year commitment or something,
  • like two years active duty and one in reserves.
  • And so I did the active duty.
  • And this lover that I was with, the officer and the gentleman,
  • he came to Germany and we went on a beautiful weekend
  • in Garmisch skiing and all this other type of stuff.
  • And then when we came back we sort of broke up
  • and that's when I started going into this depression.
  • And then I went up to Camp Drum for a training thing.
  • And at that time, there was a guy that was in Germany,
  • the same place I was, that knew the same gay bar in Stuttgart
  • so we went out.
  • And then he picked somebody at this bar
  • in Watertown driving back.
  • Anyhow, my car was stolen by this person that
  • had been picked up and whatnot.
  • And they asked me, you know, what
  • was going on and being depressed and in such a low thing,
  • I tell them the whole story and things like that.
  • So I more or less committed myself
  • to saying that there was this gay activity and stuff that
  • was going on.
  • So then they had a court martial up there in Culver Road there,
  • I think.
  • And there was a black police officer, Charlie Price,
  • and all of a sudden, he showed up at work one day
  • and he said, "Bob, keep your mouth shut."
  • And I just wanted some relief.
  • I just didn't want all this stuff bottled up
  • inside all the time.
  • And he said, "You better get a lawyer."
  • And then so I got Lloyd Hurst, who
  • was part of the Human Rights Commission
  • here in Rochester and stuff.
  • And they had-- so it wasn't a dishonorable discharge but just
  • general type of thing and whatnot.
  • And then I went to get the record expunged because they
  • were going to do that.
  • I had to contact Louise Slaughter and everything else.
  • She was going to see through it but all the records burned up
  • in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri and there's
  • nothing to go back and expunge, I guess.
  • Nature took care of that.
  • So that's what it was.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hey, can you see if those kids screaming
  • are on this floor?
  • And if so, give them hell.
  • ROBERT DAY: Yeah.
  • And you got a sensitive ear to pick up on that.
  • It was traumatic and exacerbated a lot of stuff that went on.
  • But it was so many years ago, you know?
  • I've grown and gone beyond that type of stuff, too,
  • and it's great.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Moving fast forward here to years later
  • and your involvement-- you got involved
  • with the faith community.
  • ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Been doing a lot of work with gay activism
  • and educating the faith community on the gay community.
  • Talk a little bit about that.
  • Talk to me how you got involved in the faith community
  • and your role there in really trying to educate
  • of who the community is.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK, yeah, that's good.
  • You know, I was brought up with faith.
  • And so I walked away from it or was forced away
  • or I just heard the negative messages coming out
  • of the churches that are still coming out today,
  • but not all of them.
  • And then being African-American, when you're subjugated,
  • you know, there's a faith that I think we have,
  • a spiritual part of our being that is exemplified
  • in the spirituals, you know?
  • And we think of this life beyond and coming out
  • of exile and things like that, that this is going to happen.
  • So after I walked away from all that faith and spiritual stuff,
  • life was pretty empty and dark for me.
  • And then when I get into recovery, I go to a program
  • and they said, you're a child of God and you're loved
  • and he'll love you no matter what and go on, you know?
  • Even then, I had trepidations.
  • And I said, well, when these people find out that I'm gay,
  • they're going to chase me out of here.
  • And they said, no, we're not.
  • And they didn't.
  • So that went.
  • I had to develop this--
  • reconnect with this faith and spiritual part
  • and go from there.
  • And so then I met a person and there's
  • a movement going in the Presbyterian Church
  • called the More Light Movement.
  • And a lot of people said, how did you get in that church?
  • And I said, chasing a man.
  • And that was the reason, one of the reasons I went.
  • But then there was a good message of hope and welcomness
  • and even trying to change some of the polity of the church.
  • And then I got a part of that, got
  • into that and then the next thing
  • I know, I'm in Birmingham, Alabama,
  • talking to the general assembly and giving a witness,
  • as we say, or just tell them what it is.
  • I also connected with Soul Force and picketed a Southern Baptist
  • Convention and got arrested and didn't spend any time.
  • And it was good company because Jimmy Creech, who's just here
  • in Rochester who is a Methodist that was defrocked for marrying
  • a gay couple, he was here for a lecture
  • at the Colgate Rochester Divinity and stuff.
  • And I had the privilege of giving a thank you to him
  • and reminding him when he got arrested so many years ago.
  • So there's a lot.
  • And as you see with that advocacy in the church
  • and some of the churches coming around for affirmative
  • and welcoming people of all such orientations, it's coming.
  • So that was a proactive type of thing
  • that we could do, you know?
  • And rather than being frustrated and stuff,
  • we got to this part of saying, well,
  • give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
  • and the courage to change the things I can't and the wisdom
  • to know the difference.
  • And that's sort of directed my life all the way along.
  • That some things I can do, you know, and some I can't.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We're going to focus on a couple of those.
  • a second after this train goes by.
  • CREW: Yes, thanks.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Let's just go back a little bit and focus a little more
  • specifically.
  • Tell me the story about speaking at the general assembly
  • and being at Birmingham-
  • CREW: Oh, wait.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I think it's gone.
  • So this was the general assembly for the Presbyterian Church,
  • right?
  • ROBERT DAY: Yeah, the Presbyterian USA,
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, just tell me about it.
  • Tell me what was it, what were you trying to do down there,
  • and what was the reaction that you got?
  • ROBERT DAY: It was relatively positive
  • because it advanced some changes as they come along,
  • you know how they sort of--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Take me back to the beginning.
  • ROBERT DAY: Back to the beginning.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Take me back, you know,
  • I was sent down to Birmingham, Alabama, for this general--
  • start right at.
  • ROBERT DAY: At the beginning of it.
  • OK, every two years, I believe it is, they have this thing.
  • For the last thirty years, they've
  • been trying to advance changing the book of order
  • and the polity of the church.
  • And it goes and it comes and whatnot.
  • This year we said that we'd like to change it
  • to where anyone of faith, if they made all the requirements,
  • they could be called to be ordained.
  • And this sort of goes back with another group right here
  • in Rochester that started which is called That All May Freely
  • Serve that J.D. Spire was a part of.
  • And I was on the board with her for a while, too.
  • So we got to Birmingham and there was time allotted for us
  • to present our arguments and they were well received
  • and the law didn't change, but it
  • did go to a committee that eventually brought it about.
  • And then the opposition sort of overreached and said,
  • anybody that was not living in a committed relationship--
  • so the next thing you know, they're
  • putting out half of the straight people (unintelligible).
  • So it just didn't make sense, what they were doing.
  • And so finally, this past year they
  • said each church can make their decision.
  • So it was dignified-- you know, in that type of setting,
  • people listen to the arguments but there
  • are some that are more fundamentalist that
  • will get up and try to do all of their quoting of scripture
  • and all these other rules that are losing more
  • and more of their basis of upholding
  • some of these whole things.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about the experience
  • from your political standpoint of standing up
  • there in front of fifteen hundred people
  • as an openly gay man speaking to this congregation
  • in Presbyterian leaders.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • It's empowering because there was advocates,
  • you know, other advocates that were behind me
  • and they were telling their stories also.
  • There were lesbian pastors and the ones that
  • had their credentials pulled, there
  • were pastors that were blessing gay unions and their experience
  • about what went on.
  • And so it wasn't just me, it was a group
  • and there was a lot of support around that.
  • And it was empowering to say, well, here we are.
  • And being legitimized and saying you are a person
  • and we're listening and we're discerning and things
  • like that.
  • That was that part of that experience
  • with that many people around there.
  • My voice was there, you know, and it was great
  • and I was quoting, "let justice raining down
  • in righteousness like a mighty river"
  • and I expect that from the church.
  • And it's sort of written at the Martin Luther King
  • memorial in Birmingham.
  • And then there's that part of empowerment as a gay man,
  • the other was the ambience and the atmosphere
  • of that whole city of Birmingham.
  • And I said, is this the place where the bombed churches
  • and people died?
  • And there's a big museum to that.
  • I went to lunch and I walked into a restaurant
  • with a man that was with our group whose daughter was
  • a lesbian and he was supportive of Janie Spahr and all
  • like that.
  • And we sat in the restaurant and just twenty
  • or thirty years ago, that would be unthinkable, you know,
  • and whatnot.
  • And to get on a street car and sit wherever I wanted
  • and you think back on Rosa Parks and what she did.
  • And so from that experience, I grew
  • to go on with this gay part and the sexual part, too, you know?
  • If you can accept the black, you put all that stuff aside
  • after all those bulldogs and all that water hose and stuff like
  • that, I can stand up in front of these people and say, hey,
  • let's cut this charade and go on and talk about justice
  • and equality for all and stuff like that
  • and just act like Christians rather than hypocrites,
  • you know?
  • And so that's what was empowering.
  • But it's not so much alone, There's
  • a lot of people in unity and stuff like that.
  • And it's the same empowerment I felt
  • walking in Washington at some of the pride parades down there
  • and shaking my fist at the Supreme Court building
  • and hollering shame, shame over there
  • to Reagan in the White House when they didn't even
  • want to admit that there's AIDS things--
  • So all that stuff is empowering when
  • there was a lot of people that were going on
  • and really, it's internal because we
  • feel that stuff internally and that's where
  • the truth is in there, too.
  • So that's good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to stay with this for just a little bit
  • more.
  • Again, back to that general assembly.
  • ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Very simply, why were you there?
  • What were you hoping to accomplish?
  • ROBERT DAY: OK, why was I there?
  • Because each church has--
  • or it's presbytery has advocates that go.
  • So I was chosen as an advocate and that's how I got to go.
  • But I was chosen as an advocate because
  • of being from a More Light church in the Genesee
  • presbytery also with experience that all may freely serve.
  • And so that's how I got there.
  • And it was sort of like being thrown in the lake
  • because I once--
  • what do I want to say?
  • I was a newly-minted Presbyterian
  • and some of those Presbyterians are
  • pretty dyed in the wool, type with their polity and whatnot
  • and discernment, like we don't have a bishop telling us
  • what to do, you know?
  • We have to do all this through the sermon.
  • And so that's how I got there.
  • And then there was a group that was planning
  • the presentation for the general assembly
  • and that's called covenant network
  • where these churches come together
  • to say we're going to advance equality within our church
  • and stuff.
  • So I connected in with that group, too.
  • So it wasn't just singularly and just by myself,
  • it was just sort of serendipity that I got there and was
  • with them.
  • And--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Let's touch upon two things, then, that you mentioned.
  • The More Light church.
  • More Light church?
  • ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • Talk to me about the More Light church
  • as though I'm someone who's never even heard of it.
  • What was it?
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And why was it implemented in the Presbyterian
  • Church?
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • Because there are people that read scripture for discernment,
  • you know?
  • And then this More Light is a part
  • of a scripture that says, "more will be revealed
  • and more light will be shed on it."
  • So this is where they adopted that from.
  • And--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can we pause for a second?
  • ROBERT DAY: --so certain churches.
  • CREW: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sounds like a chase.
  • OK, let's go back to the beginning.
  • I need you to first set up for me
  • what's the More Light church--
  • what it is and then explain to me how it came about.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • More Light church is a church that
  • advocates for justice for all people
  • and ordination of all people, regardless of gender
  • or sexual identity and let's leave it there
  • because it also has women and different abled
  • and stuff like that.
  • And so that's where that started.
  • But it's mostly with the sexual orientation part.
  • And some churches declare themselves
  • to be More Light and willing to work for that and others don't
  • because each church has to vote on are they going
  • to take that stance or not.
  • Here in Rochester, there's Downtown Presbyterian Church,
  • Third Presbyterian Church, Calvary St. Andrews
  • Presbyterian Church and I think that's about all.
  • There may be another one but I can't say it right now.
  • But there's others that are considering it, too, you know?
  • And so that's the More Light concept
  • but over the United States there's
  • more More Light churches that are banding together.
  • And so that's what the More Like movement is is to open up
  • the church, the ordination standards
  • where anyone that's gone through seminary and whatnot can go.
  • And there's a lot going on in that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about Janie Spahr
  • and that whole situation.
  • And again, start at the beginning
  • and tell me as though I've never heard the name Janie Spahr
  • and what was that all about.
  • ROBERT DAY: Janie Spahr is a dynamic women
  • and I think she just likes hot water.
  • And so she was called to Downtown Presbyterian Church
  • There's a woman, a grand lady, Jenny Virginia Davidson, that
  • was there and she was big in the national presbytery and stuff
  • like being a delegate in a--
  • very active and known nationwide.
  • So she wanted to bring this to Downtown Presbyterian Church.
  • But there's a little man out in Scottsville Presbyterian Church
  • that said, oh, you can't have that,
  • she's a self-avowed lesbian.
  • He's since left that church and got divorced and everything
  • else but, you know, heterosexuals
  • can do anything like that.
  • So then the Downtown set up this program
  • and made Jenny an evangelist that would go out and just talk
  • about what's going on and how people
  • are being treated in the church that it's not really justice.
  • And so she started this More Light movement
  • that went on from that.
  • Well, of course, you know, she's married people and as
  • a matter of fact, when we had the general assembly in San
  • Jose, California, that was an inspiring day too
  • because California was marrying at that time
  • and we went down to the city square
  • and had this mass marriage and people were renewing their vows
  • and Janie was there and marrying people with her robes on.
  • So after that, they withdrew marriage in California
  • and then the church brought up charges on her
  • so that she couldn't use the liturgy from our church
  • to do this.
  • So she had another big court case, which she's lost.
  • And she just keeps going and coming back and forth
  • like that.
  • So that's the More Light movement.
  • And now there's another lady that's taken over from Janie
  • and her name is Lisa Larges.
  • And Lisa is another phenomenal person
  • because she's sight challenged and for a good many years,
  • since the seventies, she's been plodding along
  • to get to have a church and be called to a church.
  • And so she's almost there in Presbyterians
  • of Redlands in California.
  • And that's good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Janie wasn't with More Light, was she?
  • ROBERT DAY: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, where does the whole--
  • ROBERT DAY: Oh no, no she's Freely Served.
  • There's two groups that are for advocacy and maybe
  • even the third one, too, because it's the Covenant Network,
  • isn't it?
  • Another.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so just talk to me briefly about That All
  • May Freely Serve.
  • What is it and how did it come about?
  • ROBERT DAY: OK, well it came about here in Rochester
  • and it's about bringing the church into--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It came out of the situation with Janie?
  • Is that where it came out?
  • ROBERT DAY: Yeah, because she couldn't--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, start there.
  • Start at the beginning of the story there.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK.
  • I probably went over it too quickly.
  • It started down there when she was
  • called to Downtown Presbyterian Church
  • and then they said she couldn't do it
  • because it violated this Book of Order of not being in a--
  • what do you want to call it--
  • relationship with a man and woman, not heterosexual,
  • that she was a lesbian and therefore not
  • qualified to be a pastor.
  • And so then they said that she's going to be an evangelist
  • and she went around the country talking about the injustice
  • within the church.
  • And so that's really More Light, shining the light
  • on the injustice and things like that.
  • And it's still going on today.
  • So that was one avenue and then there's
  • other churches that claimed themselves to be More Light
  • and they're doing similar work but not the same work
  • because they don't have an evangelist going
  • to every church, it's just the church
  • that's here in this locality, we welcome all people
  • to worship here and they can be in all offices and things
  • like that.
  • And so that's another national organization.
  • So there's three large organizations
  • like that in the Presbyterian Church.
  • There's a covenant network that brings all these together
  • and they have a staff that, well,
  • do legal work and everything else to go along with it.
  • It's really quite extensive.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want you to kind of connect the dots for me
  • a little bit of how something like the incident with Janie
  • Spahr and being involved with that has influenced
  • the work that you continue to do now
  • within the faith community for gay rights activism.
  • ROBERT DAY: Oh well, we can see progress, you know,
  • and it's forward and backwards.
  • But you know when you have--
  • what do I want to say--
  • justice on your side, you know that you're standing on right,
  • you know?
  • That gives you courage to go on.
  • But there is that other force that is holding us back,
  • you know?
  • And we can see today in this country
  • with the number of people who are looking at gay--
  • I hate that word, gay marriage-- at marriage for all people,
  • it's not necessarily gay or anything, it's just marriage.
  • Marriage equality.
  • And so they're begin to see that more and more.
  • And the new numbers are out, it's above 50 percent.
  • But it's been slow.
  • And even going on in Albany and talking
  • to some of our representatives riding those buses down there,
  • you know, they're not going to change
  • because they think that most of the people they represent
  • don't want it.
  • And it's not a farce, but, you know, our presence is there,
  • and we're in their face all the time and things like that.
  • And some of them go down because they voted a certain way.
  • But there is progress there and so
  • that's what encourages me to keep going on because, well,
  • two steps forward, one step back.
  • Well, even Evelyn, too, you know,
  • she's been in the trenches a long time.
  • And so we feel not being moved.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: There's one last question here
  • that just came to mind and it can be somewhat
  • of a sensitive question.
  • But it comes to mind because there is still
  • such a stigma within the African-American community
  • about gays and lesbians.
  • What would you, as a black man, say
  • to the African-American community basically
  • to tell them to get over it?
  • What would you-- what could you tell
  • them to really kind of open up their minds a little bit?
  • ROBERT DAY: I'm going to say, remember.
  • I'm just going to say, remember.
  • One and-- I've forgotten her partner's name.
  • I think it was Susan.
  • They were married in St. Mary's Park over there
  • and Reverend Cal he did it.
  • And somebody interviewed me on one of the radio stations
  • and I said, "It doesn't matter if you're beaten at a whip
  • because you're black or if you're gay,
  • it stings the same."
  • And I have to remind the black African-Americans,
  • remember when you were a slave?
  • Remember when you were discriminated against no more
  • but the color of your skin?
  • Now what did you have to do with the color of your skin?
  • Well, if you believe in medical science, or science,
  • a gay person does not choose to be gay,
  • it is just a part of the natural condition.
  • And to hold that against and to discriminate against them,
  • is just the same discrimination that was
  • afflicted afflicted upon us.
  • And I had to thank my cousin at my uncle's funeral.
  • His father was a Redtail, which is one of the Tuskegee pilots.
  • And there is a black church in Petersburg, Virginia,
  • where the funeral was held and his father
  • had built the church, you know, it was brick, was a mason.
  • And during the eulogy, my cousin said his father told him,
  • he said, my father was always fair
  • and he told this to the Time Magazine, he took it out
  • and Anita Bryant was--
  • they were covering her and all these
  • remarks it hurts God, you know, save the church.
  • And he says, you just take homosexual out of there
  • and put black in there and it's all the same.
  • And he said that in a black church
  • and you could feel a little, you know, thing come back.
  • But that message was getting through
  • and that's the message I want to talk about, too, you know?
  • You just change the noun and it's the same old mess
  • all the way down the line.
  • And discrimination by any other word is still discrimination.
  • And you know, I could feel sorry for this woman
  • because she was taught that and she believes that but it
  • was Mother's Day or something and here she
  • was big with her big pink dress on, a big pink hat,
  • you know, those crowns that they all wear and pink lipstick
  • and she talked about, well, it's just not right,
  • it's just not right, the Bible says this.
  • And I said, lady, get over it and you're
  • in a balloon that's just way off base
  • and the twentieth century is coming
  • and you'd better get on it.
  • And it could be an ally.
  • But then the other thing, they'll
  • raise a whole lot of money on that stuff, too,
  • and they can fire up a congregation
  • and that's what they're using it to do,
  • a whipping boy and stuff like that.
  • That's another thing that I'm resentful for and whatnot.
  • And you know, you sit up there and you clap for all these.
  • Yeah brother and yeah man and stuff like that and he's
  • running around there trying to get little boys
  • and take them down, you know, maybe
  • going to jail for thirty years.
  • And that's right there in Rochester, so.
  • You know how that mop flops, too.
  • And that's it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, well thank you.
  • ROBERT DAY: OK, well you got a lot to edit.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, we do.
  • Lisa's going to--
  • Jill's going to get the microphone of of you.
  • ROBERT DAY: Oh, OK.