Video Interview, Bob Day, May 23, 2016

CREW: OK, sir, I am rolling.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Bob, just for prosperity, just actually

for a microphone check, I just need

you to give me the correct spelling

of your first and last name.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

R-O-B-E-R-T. D-A-Y.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

I know we call you Bob, but when we put your name on screen

do you prefer Robert?

ROBERT DAY: I have no preference.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

ROBERT DAY: No, no.

I'm usually Bob Day, two words.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

ROBERT DAY: But most people say it all together, Bob Day.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Bob Day.

OK.

So, like I said, this is just a conversation between you and I.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, we're interested right now in talking

about Rochester in the 1950s, 1960s

and primarily what was the gay scene like in Rochester

back then?

Where did you go to find other gay people?

ROBERT DAY: Oh what was the gay scene like?

It was very confined and very underground

and it was mostly centered on Front Street in two bars

down there.

But then, too, I imagine, there was private clicks and parties

and things like that.

But there wasn't a lot of public type of stuff

and a public display and things like it is today.

By display I mean open relationships and people

could tell there is a couple walking down the street

or in a restaurant or something like that.

But it was very, very closeted, you know?

And people were--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.

We have four church bells to get through at the moment,

because it's four o'clock.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's just step it back just

a little bit about how Rochester back in the fifties and sixties

was very closeted.

ROBERT DAY: Yes.

Because people were closeted with their families,

with the work situation and things like that.

It wasn't as free to be-- let me put it

that way-- free to be like today.

And I really can see that difference now

in 20/20 hindsight how that was.

Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But from your own perspective,

you were out there.

You were going to some of the bars, you know?

I mean, what was it like?

What was it like going to Front Street

and was that your only social outlet?

ROBERT DAY: No, because I was in school.

I went to school in downtown Rochester

at RIT before it moved to Henrietta.

And so there's class activities by classmates and things,

you know?

And then after they went home to the dorm to study,

I guess I had some other activities,

I wasn't quite through yet, and then

I just walked up Main Street and then to Front Street.

I wasn't too much with the movies and things like that.

And then there's some dances.

And my life is sort of bifurcated, you know,

cut up in three parts, type of thing.

There's the students and the white people I hung around with

and then sometimes I'd go over to the (unintelligible)

Hall which is on (unintelligible) Street

and listen to jazz and stuff and I'd be around black people

and then I'd run down the Front Street

and be around gay people.

And there's an old TV series that said, I led three lives.

This is the way some of us lived in that time, you know?

There was a gay life and a professional life or whatever,

like that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you ever fearful of being exposed?

Of being found out as a gay man?

ROBERT DAY: Yes, yes, especially at school because, you know,

you can be expelled or something like that if they found out.

And then the ridicule and things like that.

I lied about it, too, to go into the service

because, you know, they'd ask the question,

"Do you have homosexual tendencies?"

And I hesitated because I was a Boy Scout once

and never tell a lie.

Then I put it down boldly, no, saying, no, there's

no tendencies, you know?

I'm full blown, there's no question about it.

And so that sort of cleared my conscience.

But there was that type of stuff about being honest

and still, you know, protecting yourself a little bit

and things like that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: If you could kind of walk me

through the experience of you're leaving the RIT dorm,

you're walking down Main Street, and then you

got to take that turn onto Front Street.

Talk to me about what was going on with you emotionally

and mentally in that experience, knowing where were you going.

ROBERT DAY: Well, there's always the thought, oh,

am I going to score today?

Is Mr. Right going to be there or Mr. Right Away?

I don't know which would show up.

Most times, neither.

And then the other thing is who's there, you know?

And you look up and down the street

both ways to see if you recognize

anybody or anything like that and then

you'd make a quick dash down through there.

But there was a little bit of trepidation and things

like that.

And then even when you get in there,

you don't know who's going to be there.

And I never stopped to think, well,

what are they doing there, themselves?

But, you know, you may run into somebody and say, oh my gosh,

my cover's been blown.

But consequently, there's were, too,

but I never looked at it in that light.

And so there was a lot of stuff of,

like, going underground and things like that.

And then when you're in there, in that situation,

you never know what's going to happen,

if a raid or something's going to come on

or your name it's going to come out somewhere

or something like that.

So, yeah, there was that edge to it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So describe for me Front Street.

What was it like?

What did it look like?

What was the atmosphere like?

ROBERT DAY: Oh, wow.

It was-- I used to call it whores, cutthroat, and thieves

or something like that.

There were pawn shops and there were bars

and it was sort of Skid Row-ey and the further

you went down Front Street till you get down

to International Hotel it was sort of people that were

downed and things like that.

And a live chicken market, I can remember

that, and things like that.

It was a fun street.

I don't know why it reminded me of New York

down there in the Lower East Side or something like that.

But it sort of had that flavor of that

and you know, the pawn shops and second hand things.

I'm trying to remember, I think there's

some legitimate businesses there,

if my memory is serving me right.

I think there's a meat market down there called Cats.

It gets me.

I thought that was a good name for a meat market.

And tile companies and things like that, yeah, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: There was a couple

places down there that you were a regular at.

ROBERT DAY: Yeah, um-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about some of the--

you know, there's Martha's and Dick's.

Talk to me about those two places

and why did you go there?

ROBERT DAY: Oh, well I like--

my mind is going on me again.

Ma Martin's, there we go.

It just came back.

Because people were more real in there.

In Martha's it's sort of some thought they were Tony

gay guys, type of thing.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You know what, I'm

going to have you start out your answer to me

as though I've never even heard of any of these places.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Since-- you know, down

on Front Street there was these places called, whatever.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

That was called Ma Martin's and Dick's Tavern,

they were close by.

And then further down the street there was one by Peggy.

And I can't think of what she had

her name was Peg and Larry's that's what it was.

And then she moved to the State Street

and became the Bizarre Lounge.

But anyhow, so there's three sort of like--

By day in Ma Martin's, her husband

was there and there's just the regular--

I hate to use the pejorative, but grubby type of people.

You know, the people on Front Street,

every city has a Front Street, I guess.

And then at night when she came to take over,

more gays would come in because of getting off of work

or they just blossomed at night, I guess.

And then the story goes--

that was sort of a rundown bar type of thing.

And then Dick's the next door.

Dick Gruttadauria.

That was not very well populated or anything.

Maybe there was a few people in there drinking.

But one day there was a big crowd at Ma Martin's

and so they went over to Dick's and when Dick came in

to count the cash, he asked his wife, where'd all this money

come from?

She said, oh, those gay boys came over from next door.

And it started like that.

And so that's the way it was but it was--

most of the-- what.

The ones that went to Dick's Tavern,

they'd wear saddle shoes, you know, look like the singers.

Oh, my mind goes.

But I just can see the bow ties and the blazers and whatnot.

And so they're a little more dressier and not so

down and out.

And then down at Peg and Larry's,

they were just sort of--

we call them sort of bisexuals.

There were men that did go one way or the other way

and all that other type of stuff.

But they weren't all gay or something like that.

And then, too, there was a few lesbians

sprinkled in there too and whatnot.

So it was fun.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So I have to ask you,

because you were a gay man who was out and about, which

was kind of unusual in that time period,

but you were also a Black gay man.

I mean, with everything that was going on in the fifties

and sixties within the black community,

were you living in a double-edged sword, there?

Were you finding any discrimination

at the gay bars as a black man?

I mean, you know, even today, being

gay in the black community is not readily talked about.

ROBERT DAY: Yeah.

And you're right, there.

And I hadn't had all that much engagement

with the black community.

I have to go back again.

I am a country boy.

I lived in a small town.

And I just grew up differently.

And my first partner, lover, something was a Jewish man

and he told me, he said, you got more white middle class values

than I do, you know?

Because he had the Jewish values and things like that.

So my perspective was different than being an inner city

type of people.

And I'm not putting any people who were

black living in the inner city.

But then there was a black community in the country

also in Caledonia and Avon and Mumford and Geneseo.

So I was a country black, as opposed to a city

person of color.

And so there's that little differential.

So being in the community and doing

loads of sports that the black city youth would do

or the black church, you know?

I grew up in a little lily white Methodist Church.

The minister would put you to sleep on Sunday afternoon

and whatnot.

So there is that.

Now, you asked the part about being

uncomfortable with different races.

There was a line there, I could feel it,

but I didn't find discomfort in that.

And I also--

I don't know, I guess I was just brazen and didn't care.

I felt like I was cut loose in the middle of nowhere,

you know?

I didn't have roots in this community

or that community or something else.

So it didn't seem like I had a whole lot to lose.

But I certainly didn't want to embarrass my family in any way.

And that was a core value that I had

is to not do anything to embarrass my family.

And that's it.

I have to smile because before you started this

you said, oh, let me put something on your face

so the shine will not come through and stuff.

But I remember when I was at school,

it was quite fashionable to get pancake makeup and stuff

and I'd put that on before I'd go out.

I don't know, there's a group of us

that had to do sort of that type of stuff and whatnot.

So it's not my first experience with putting powder on my face.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me look at it different way,

because you just mentioned this, your first relationship,

you were in an interracial relationship,

an interracial gay relationship.

Any reaction from the rest of the community about that?

Did you ever feel like people had

any kind of negative attitudes towards you

at any of the gay bars?

ROBERT DAY: No.

No.

Because people would talk.

But, you know, the intimacy, let's meet for dinner, let's

come over to my place or something, that wasn't there.

Yeah.

There's two of them.

And it was interracial.

And I met him at Ma Martin's one night.

So there was something because he was in the service,

he was an officer and a gentleman

and I wanted to volunteer for my active service

and then come back we were going to live happily

ever after in the little white house with a picket fence.

Well, that dream didn't come true, you know?

But there was a time when he and I were looking for an apartment

together.

I got the old treatment of, oh, it was just rented,

you know, and I'm sorry it's taken.

And inside I was confused, I didn't

know if it was because it was a gay couple,

if they read that or if they just read the racial thing,

you know, and whatnot.

So that was that one.

And then the second one was with a married man.

The Jewish man was married but their marriage was breaking up

and things at that time.

And I met him in a gay--

not gay, pseudo gay which was a Town and Country

across from the Eastman Theater.

And I'd come from a concert and was sitting in there

and all of a sudden I saw these big brown eyes

blinking and winking and stuff and it took off

for seventeen years.

But we did things together.

We'd go to health club together, we'd go to dinner together

and stuff like that.

But we didn't have a circle of friends

around us, maybe one or two.

One in particular had a country house down

(unintelligible) valley south of Naples

and spend weekends down there and stuff like that.

But a big social network and things like that wasn't there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, after I went back and looked

at the pre-interview we did with you

and talking about the different decades and going through it,

it seemed to me like you pretty much got along OK

throughout the years, that nothing huge happened to you

that could have happened.

You know, fifties and sixties and you're

a black man here in the city.

You know, you kind of got through that unscathed.

And as a gay man, you kind of got through life

unscathed which a lot of people had horrific experiences,

you know, discrimination and brutal violence.

But I want to know from you, was there any time in those years

that it wasn't so good.

Was there any times that it was really

kind of challenging from day to day,

particularly as a gay man for you?

ROBERT DAY: Well there was always

that fear of being exposed.

But then, too, I come from a whole line of survivors

and I'm sort of defiant, too, you know?

And just to know how to keep a low profile.

Because you know, the nail that stands up

will get smacked down.

And so keep that profile but not to crumble

beneath the pressure.

I-- frightening experiences is finding

somebody that is going to take advantage of you

and being on guard against that.

And that was one time that that went down.

I did have emotional bottoms because of--

what do you want to call it--

my sexuality, it did cause problems.

Not problems, but they were events that were traumatic

for me, let me put it that way.

And that was with the Army, getting a general discharge out

of that.

And that triggered sort of a depression that

exacerbated a lot of drinking that took me all the way

into the disease of alcoholism.

And then to come back from that was good.

And I did it all without being referred to rehab or anything

like that.

You know, I didn't go away like the stars

and I didn't miss a day at work, neither.

Fortunately, I worked for a place

that was understanding of the disease and whatnot.

And even of the sexuality, too, you know?

One guy that I had to dismiss was

going to sue me and the place where

we worked for reverse discrimination and things

like that.

And just being threatened with that, but human services came

to me and said, "You don't have to worry about that, you know?"

The laws came and everything like that.

So those little incidences.

You know, I flare up when he said reverse

because he's going to say that all the gay people are sort

of permitted and they can get along with things

and then him--

And so all that was poppycock and stuff.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You touched on something I

might ask you about because I don't

think we talked about this in your pre-interview.

Were you discharged from the Army

because they found out about sexual identity?

ROBERT DAY: Yes.

Yes, they found out about it because I told.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well tell me about--

tell me that story.

ROBERT DAY: Oh, that story.

That story is-- oh, I'd like to say

where it would make some sense.

And I guess it would make sense.

What happens the service, there's

a three year commitment or something,

like two years active duty and one in reserves.

And so I did the active duty.

And this lover that I was with, the officer and the gentleman,

he came to Germany and we went on a beautiful weekend

in Garmisch skiing and all this other type of stuff.

And then when we came back we sort of broke up

and that's when I started going into this depression.

And then I went up to Camp Drum for a training thing.

And at that time, there was a guy that was in Germany,

the same place I was, that knew the same gay bar in Stuttgart

so we went out.

And then he picked somebody at this bar

in Watertown driving back.

Anyhow, my car was stolen by this person that

had been picked up and whatnot.

And they asked me, you know, what

was going on and being depressed and in such a low thing,

I tell them the whole story and things like that.

So I more or less committed myself

to saying that there was this gay activity and stuff that

was going on.

So then they had a court martial up there in Culver Road there,

I think.

And there was a black police officer, Charlie Price,

and all of a sudden, he showed up at work one day

and he said, "Bob, keep your mouth shut."

And I just wanted some relief.

I just didn't want all this stuff bottled up

inside all the time.

And he said, "You better get a lawyer."

And then so I got Lloyd Hurst, who

was part of the Human Rights Commission

here in Rochester and stuff.

And they had-- so it wasn't a dishonorable discharge but just

general type of thing and whatnot.

And then I went to get the record expunged because they

were going to do that.

I had to contact Louise Slaughter and everything else.

She was going to see through it but all the records burned up

in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri and there's

nothing to go back and expunge, I guess.

Nature took care of that.

So that's what it was.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Hey, can you see if those kids screaming

are on this floor?

And if so, give them hell.

ROBERT DAY: Yeah.

And you got a sensitive ear to pick up on that.

It was traumatic and exacerbated a lot of stuff that went on.

But it was so many years ago, you know?

I've grown and gone beyond that type of stuff, too,

and it's great.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Moving fast forward here to years later

and your involvement-- you got involved

with the faith community.

ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Been doing a lot of work with gay activism

and educating the faith community on the gay community.

Talk a little bit about that.

Talk to me how you got involved in the faith community

and your role there in really trying to educate

of who the community is.

ROBERT DAY: OK, yeah, that's good.

You know, I was brought up with faith.

And so I walked away from it or was forced away

or I just heard the negative messages coming out

of the churches that are still coming out today,

but not all of them.

And then being African-American, when you're subjugated,

you know, there's a faith that I think we have,

a spiritual part of our being that is exemplified

in the spirituals, you know?

And we think of this life beyond and coming out

of exile and things like that, that this is going to happen.

So after I walked away from all that faith and spiritual stuff,

life was pretty empty and dark for me.

And then when I get into recovery, I go to a program

and they said, you're a child of God and you're loved

and he'll love you no matter what and go on, you know?

Even then, I had trepidations.

And I said, well, when these people find out that I'm gay,

they're going to chase me out of here.

And they said, no, we're not.

And they didn't.

So that went.

I had to develop this--

reconnect with this faith and spiritual part

and go from there.

And so then I met a person and there's

a movement going in the Presbyterian Church

called the More Light Movement.

And a lot of people said, how did you get in that church?

And I said, chasing a man.

And that was the reason, one of the reasons I went.

But then there was a good message of hope and welcomness

and even trying to change some of the polity of the church.

And then I got a part of that, got

into that and then the next thing

I know, I'm in Birmingham, Alabama,

talking to the general assembly and giving a witness,

as we say, or just tell them what it is.

I also connected with Soul Force and picketed a Southern Baptist

Convention and got arrested and didn't spend any time.

And it was good company because Jimmy Creech, who's just here

in Rochester who is a Methodist that was defrocked for marrying

a gay couple, he was here for a lecture

at the Colgate Rochester Divinity and stuff.

And I had the privilege of giving a thank you to him

and reminding him when he got arrested so many years ago.

So there's a lot.

And as you see with that advocacy in the church

and some of the churches coming around for affirmative

and welcoming people of all such orientations, it's coming.

So that was a proactive type of thing

that we could do, you know?

And rather than being frustrated and stuff,

we got to this part of saying, well,

give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change

and the courage to change the things I can't and the wisdom

to know the difference.

And that's sort of directed my life all the way along.

That some things I can do, you know, and some I can't.

KEVIN INDOVINO: We're going to focus on a couple of those.

a second after this train goes by.

CREW: Yes, thanks.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Let's just go back a little bit and focus a little more

specifically.

Tell me the story about speaking at the general assembly

and being at Birmingham-

CREW: Oh, wait.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I think it's gone.

So this was the general assembly for the Presbyterian Church,

right?

ROBERT DAY: Yeah, the Presbyterian USA,

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, just tell me about it.

Tell me what was it, what were you trying to do down there,

and what was the reaction that you got?

ROBERT DAY: It was relatively positive

because it advanced some changes as they come along,

you know how they sort of--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Take me back to the beginning.

ROBERT DAY: Back to the beginning.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Take me back, you know,

I was sent down to Birmingham, Alabama, for this general--

start right at.

ROBERT DAY: At the beginning of it.

OK, every two years, I believe it is, they have this thing.

For the last thirty years, they've

been trying to advance changing the book of order

and the polity of the church.

And it goes and it comes and whatnot.

This year we said that we'd like to change it

to where anyone of faith, if they made all the requirements,

they could be called to be ordained.

And this sort of goes back with another group right here

in Rochester that started which is called That All May Freely

Serve that J.D. Spire was a part of.

And I was on the board with her for a while, too.

So we got to Birmingham and there was time allotted for us

to present our arguments and they were well received

and the law didn't change, but it

did go to a committee that eventually brought it about.

And then the opposition sort of overreached and said,

anybody that was not living in a committed relationship--

so the next thing you know, they're

putting out half of the straight people (unintelligible).

So it just didn't make sense, what they were doing.

And so finally, this past year they

said each church can make their decision.

So it was dignified-- you know, in that type of setting,

people listen to the arguments but there

are some that are more fundamentalist that

will get up and try to do all of their quoting of scripture

and all these other rules that are losing more

and more of their basis of upholding

some of these whole things.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about the experience

from your political standpoint of standing up

there in front of fifteen hundred people

as an openly gay man speaking to this congregation

in Presbyterian leaders.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

It's empowering because there was advocates,

you know, other advocates that were behind me

and they were telling their stories also.

There were lesbian pastors and the ones that

had their credentials pulled, there

were pastors that were blessing gay unions and their experience

about what went on.

And so it wasn't just me, it was a group

and there was a lot of support around that.

And it was empowering to say, well, here we are.

And being legitimized and saying you are a person

and we're listening and we're discerning and things

like that.

That was that part of that experience

with that many people around there.

My voice was there, you know, and it was great

and I was quoting, "let justice raining down

in righteousness like a mighty river"

and I expect that from the church.

And it's sort of written at the Martin Luther King

memorial in Birmingham.

And then there's that part of empowerment as a gay man,

the other was the ambience and the atmosphere

of that whole city of Birmingham.

And I said, is this the place where the bombed churches

and people died?

And there's a big museum to that.

I went to lunch and I walked into a restaurant

with a man that was with our group whose daughter was

a lesbian and he was supportive of Janie Spahr and all

like that.

And we sat in the restaurant and just twenty

or thirty years ago, that would be unthinkable, you know,

and whatnot.

And to get on a street car and sit wherever I wanted

and you think back on Rosa Parks and what she did.

And so from that experience, I grew

to go on with this gay part and the sexual part, too, you know?

If you can accept the black, you put all that stuff aside

after all those bulldogs and all that water hose and stuff like

that, I can stand up in front of these people and say, hey,

let's cut this charade and go on and talk about justice

and equality for all and stuff like that

and just act like Christians rather than hypocrites,

you know?

And so that's what was empowering.

But it's not so much alone, There's

a lot of people in unity and stuff like that.

And it's the same empowerment I felt

walking in Washington at some of the pride parades down there

and shaking my fist at the Supreme Court building

and hollering shame, shame over there

to Reagan in the White House when they didn't even

want to admit that there's AIDS things--

So all that stuff is empowering when

there was a lot of people that were going on

and really, it's internal because we

feel that stuff internally and that's where

the truth is in there, too.

So that's good.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to stay with this for just a little bit

more.

Again, back to that general assembly.

ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Very simply, why were you there?

What were you hoping to accomplish?

ROBERT DAY: OK, why was I there?

Because each church has--

or it's presbytery has advocates that go.

So I was chosen as an advocate and that's how I got to go.

But I was chosen as an advocate because

of being from a More Light church in the Genesee

presbytery also with experience that all may freely serve.

And so that's how I got there.

And it was sort of like being thrown in the lake

because I once--

what do I want to say?

I was a newly-minted Presbyterian

and some of those Presbyterians are

pretty dyed in the wool, type with their polity and whatnot

and discernment, like we don't have a bishop telling us

what to do, you know?

We have to do all this through the sermon.

And so that's how I got there.

And then there was a group that was planning

the presentation for the general assembly

and that's called covenant network

where these churches come together

to say we're going to advance equality within our church

and stuff.

So I connected in with that group, too.

So it wasn't just singularly and just by myself,

it was just sort of serendipity that I got there and was

with them.

And--

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Let's touch upon two things, then, that you mentioned.

The More Light church.

More Light church?

ROBERT DAY: Um-hm.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

Talk to me about the More Light church

as though I'm someone who's never even heard of it.

What was it?

ROBERT DAY: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And why was it implemented in the Presbyterian

Church?

ROBERT DAY: OK.

Because there are people that read scripture for discernment,

you know?

And then this More Light is a part

of a scripture that says, "more will be revealed

and more light will be shed on it."

So this is where they adopted that from.

And--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Can we pause for a second?

ROBERT DAY: --so certain churches.

CREW: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Sounds like a chase.

OK, let's go back to the beginning.

I need you to first set up for me

what's the More Light church--

what it is and then explain to me how it came about.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

More Light church is a church that

advocates for justice for all people

and ordination of all people, regardless of gender

or sexual identity and let's leave it there

because it also has women and different abled

and stuff like that.

And so that's where that started.

But it's mostly with the sexual orientation part.

And some churches declare themselves

to be More Light and willing to work for that and others don't

because each church has to vote on are they going

to take that stance or not.

Here in Rochester, there's Downtown Presbyterian Church,

Third Presbyterian Church, Calvary St. Andrews

Presbyterian Church and I think that's about all.

There may be another one but I can't say it right now.

But there's others that are considering it, too, you know?

And so that's the More Light concept

but over the United States there's

more More Light churches that are banding together.

And so that's what the More Like movement is is to open up

the church, the ordination standards

where anyone that's gone through seminary and whatnot can go.

And there's a lot going on in that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about Janie Spahr

and that whole situation.

And again, start at the beginning

and tell me as though I've never heard the name Janie Spahr

and what was that all about.

ROBERT DAY: Janie Spahr is a dynamic women

and I think she just likes hot water.

And so she was called to Downtown Presbyterian Church

There's a woman, a grand lady, Jenny Virginia Davidson, that

was there and she was big in the national presbytery and stuff

like being a delegate in a--

very active and known nationwide.

So she wanted to bring this to Downtown Presbyterian Church.

But there's a little man out in Scottsville Presbyterian Church

that said, oh, you can't have that,

she's a self-avowed lesbian.

He's since left that church and got divorced and everything

else but, you know, heterosexuals

can do anything like that.

So then the Downtown set up this program

and made Jenny an evangelist that would go out and just talk

about what's going on and how people

are being treated in the church that it's not really justice.

And so she started this More Light movement

that went on from that.

Well, of course, you know, she's married people and as

a matter of fact, when we had the general assembly in San

Jose, California, that was an inspiring day too

because California was marrying at that time

and we went down to the city square

and had this mass marriage and people were renewing their vows

and Janie was there and marrying people with her robes on.

So after that, they withdrew marriage in California

and then the church brought up charges on her

so that she couldn't use the liturgy from our church

to do this.

So she had another big court case, which she's lost.

And she just keeps going and coming back and forth

like that.

So that's the More Light movement.

And now there's another lady that's taken over from Janie

and her name is Lisa Larges.

And Lisa is another phenomenal person

because she's sight challenged and for a good many years,

since the seventies, she's been plodding along

to get to have a church and be called to a church.

And so she's almost there in Presbyterians

of Redlands in California.

And that's good.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Janie wasn't with More Light, was she?

ROBERT DAY: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, where does the whole--

ROBERT DAY: Oh no, no she's Freely Served.

There's two groups that are for advocacy and maybe

even the third one, too, because it's the Covenant Network,

isn't it?

Another.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so just talk to me briefly about That All

May Freely Serve.

What is it and how did it come about?

ROBERT DAY: OK, well it came about here in Rochester

and it's about bringing the church into--

KEVIN INDOVINO: It came out of the situation with Janie?

Is that where it came out?

ROBERT DAY: Yeah, because she couldn't--

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, start there.

Start at the beginning of the story there.

ROBERT DAY: OK.

I probably went over it too quickly.

It started down there when she was

called to Downtown Presbyterian Church

and then they said she couldn't do it

because it violated this Book of Order of not being in a--

what do you want to call it--

relationship with a man and woman, not heterosexual,

that she was a lesbian and therefore not

qualified to be a pastor.

And so then they said that she's going to be an evangelist

and she went around the country talking about the injustice

within the church.

And so that's really More Light, shining the light

on the injustice and things like that.

And it's still going on today.

So that was one avenue and then there's

other churches that claimed themselves to be More Light

and they're doing similar work but not the same work

because they don't have an evangelist going

to every church, it's just the church

that's here in this locality, we welcome all people

to worship here and they can be in all offices and things

like that.

And so that's another national organization.

So there's three large organizations

like that in the Presbyterian Church.

There's a covenant network that brings all these together

and they have a staff that, well,

do legal work and everything else to go along with it.

It's really quite extensive.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want you to kind of connect the dots for me

a little bit of how something like the incident with Janie

Spahr and being involved with that has influenced

the work that you continue to do now

within the faith community for gay rights activism.

ROBERT DAY: Oh well, we can see progress, you know,

and it's forward and backwards.

But you know when you have--

what do I want to say--

justice on your side, you know that you're standing on right,

you know?

That gives you courage to go on.

But there is that other force that is holding us back,

you know?

And we can see today in this country

with the number of people who are looking at gay--

I hate that word, gay marriage-- at marriage for all people,

it's not necessarily gay or anything, it's just marriage.

Marriage equality.

And so they're begin to see that more and more.

And the new numbers are out, it's above 50 percent.

But it's been slow.

And even going on in Albany and talking

to some of our representatives riding those buses down there,

you know, they're not going to change

because they think that most of the people they represent

don't want it.

And it's not a farce, but, you know, our presence is there,

and we're in their face all the time and things like that.

And some of them go down because they voted a certain way.