Video Interview, Bruce Jewell, October 1, 2013

  • BRUCE JEWELL: Because, well, in part
  • there was a division that arose between the men and the women.
  • I actually supported that.
  • I remember talking to Karen Hagberg about it and saying,
  • you know, it's not a bad idea for the women
  • to go off and determine what's important to them
  • and how they want to pursue it.
  • Because that's what the men did, actually.
  • So, it was cool.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So first things first.
  • Give us the correct spelling of your first and last name.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Bruce, B-R-U-C-E. Jewell, J-E-W-E-L-L.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And two L's?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Two L's.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • If we would insert title on you, Bruce,
  • would we put something like Founder
  • of Green Thursdays Radio Show or what would you prefer?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Founder and producer.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Producer?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Of Green Thursday?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Well, let's, before we get to Green Thursday,
  • let's just talk a little bit about your involvement
  • with the GLF.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Now let me ask you a question before we start.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: What do you think, given there were about ten
  • of us or so that started the GLF and worked
  • on it, what do you think our motivation was?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Visibility.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Visibility?
  • You think we were motivated because we
  • wanted to be visible?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's kind of the sense
  • that I got from a lot of people, sure.
  • I can't answer that.
  • Only you guys can answer that.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I think we'll talk about that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I think of community.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: You just got--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I think those guys were
  • looking for a sense community.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: You just got seventied
  • by the way, that's what we used to do, what I did to you.
  • Because what we were involved in was essentially
  • a kind of guerrilla warfare.
  • We showed up unexpectedly and saying unexpected things.
  • That was one of the techniques.
  • But go ahead.
  • Let me-- let's go on--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well, let's-- let's start there.
  • Talk to me about that.
  • What was your mission for the GLF?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, it wasn't just the GLF.
  • The GLF was an expression of--
  • and I've talked to other people about this--
  • of the moral outrage that most of us felt. We lived in a time
  • when you could be arrested in bars, bars that were often
  • run by the mafia, raided by the police,
  • and we were just the victims.
  • When people were terrified of being found out.
  • Even today you'll note that the suicide
  • rate among gay youngsters is disproportionately high.
  • So there's still a great deal of fear around being gay.
  • And the loss of jobs, the fear, the fact
  • that on a personal basis, you could be sleeping with a person
  • one evening and the next day pretend
  • you didn't know one another.
  • So there was this element of lying
  • which causes a disassociation between what you want
  • and who you are.
  • The person that you most care about
  • can be a real threat to you, not a support, but a threat.
  • So there was a sense, growing sense of moral indignation
  • around that.
  • You know, which finally broke out in Stonewall.
  • And one of the things that I and others brought to this city
  • was our last names.
  • People were not-- were afraid, desperately afraid
  • of being known.
  • And we started using our last names,
  • whether it was Bob Osborn or Robert Crystal
  • or Bruce Jewell or Karen Hagberg,
  • there it was out in public.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's not get to far with that.
  • I want to know then what was driving you guys and gals that
  • brought the courage to step forward and say, here we are.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Moral outrage, anger.
  • It was not anger that were going to beat somebody up
  • or something, but an anger that provided the energy
  • to step out and take the chances you had to take.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I want to explore this a little bit more
  • though because there was a lot of people
  • out there that were probably very angry.
  • But it was just a small group of you
  • on that campus that had the courage to do so.
  • Why do you think--
  • what was it about you guys that said,
  • you know, OK, we can do this?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I think because--
  • that's a difficult-- that's a good question.
  • It's a little difficult to answer.
  • We were all pretty well-educated in one way or another.
  • I'd done, you know, I'd done graduate work
  • in psychology and anthropology.
  • And most everybody there--
  • Bob Osborn was a genius.
  • And he was able to do things that others would
  • have had difficulty doing.
  • He was actually the first person to bring up the question
  • of equal employment at Xerox.
  • And one day he stepped down to the personnel office
  • and asked the person there, "What
  • are your policies around gay people?"
  • And he was told, "Well, we don't have
  • any policies around gay people and we're not going
  • to have them until we have to."
  • And then this individual said to him, "And by the way,
  • what's your name and where do you work?"
  • And Bob said, "Well, my name is Bob Osborn
  • and I work in such and such a department.
  • But don't bother to call.
  • I'm the only person in the United States
  • that can do the work for Xerox that I'm doing."
  • He had that kind of genius, actually.
  • That's exactly what he was.
  • So I think it was just anger at the situation which
  • was deeply felt. When I first came out in San Francisco,
  • I mean, I literally sometimes wanted to hop up on a bar
  • and scream at people, you don't have to live like this,
  • you shouldn't be living like this.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me--
  • you get involved with the Gay Liberation Front--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --just talk to me
  • briefly about the kind of conversations you folks were
  • having, the kind of vision that you guys were
  • trying to develop.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK, let me explain something theoretical here
  • which will give you a hint of that.
  • What the movement was about at that time
  • can be analyzed as providing space for gay people
  • and lesbian women.
  • You create a radio show.
  • You're creating space, air space in that particular instance.
  • When you go out as a Speakers Bureau,
  • you're creating psychological and intellectual space
  • for the discussion of being gay.
  • When you're creating a newspaper,
  • you're creating yet another kind of space.
  • When you have a regular meeting at the university,
  • or at Bull's Head, or at the firehouse, that's
  • the literal space you've taken over.
  • So, fundamentally, the movement at that time
  • was about creating space in various areas of our society.
  • So that's what we talked about.
  • How do you put a newspaper together
  • and what do you put in it?
  • How do you do a radio program?
  • What are we going to be doing in a speakers bureau
  • and how do we go about doing that?
  • So that's what we talked about.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's talk about getting to this idea
  • of doing a radio show.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me, just kind of walk me through that.
  • Where did the idea come from and how did you
  • bring it to fruition?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK.
  • At that time, there was a doctrine
  • which was eventually killed by Reagan
  • that required Public Broadcasting to provide
  • some equal time to opposition or new viewpoints.
  • The radio station WCMF, which broadcast Green Thursdays
  • was aware of this.
  • And we found out that they were kind
  • of looking for something new.
  • And we knew it.
  • And so I wrote a proposal for them.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I'm going back you up a little bit.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Because one thing that I don't think
  • is quite correct in here, you called it public broadcasting,
  • WCMF was not a public broadcasting station.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I was trying to get into that,
  • but there were laws.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Remember, the airwaves
  • are publicly owned even though the company may be private.
  • And at that time, there were laws
  • which required some public service be
  • done by these stations.
  • Ronald Reagan changed that.
  • And so I presented a proposal to WCMF.
  • And they accepted the proposal.
  • They were hoping that, in part, as I later found out,
  • that they would be controversial and draw
  • an audience to controversy.
  • And I wasn't controversial on the program.
  • I meant and was, I hope, supportive
  • of the gay community.
  • I mean, you didn't need controversy raining down
  • on your head when you were afraid to be seen in public,
  • you know?
  • You didn't need to gild the lily in that way, particularly.
  • And so they accepted the proposal.
  • Later they brought up that-- well, they'd
  • like it to be a bit more controversial.
  • And I said, "Let's go over the proposal,
  • there's nothing about controversy here."
  • And they read it over, and "No, there isn't, is there?
  • You're doing what you said you'd do."
  • But they were very supportive of us in every way.
  • And just very grateful that their fifty thousand
  • watts, vertical and horizontal, was devoted once a week to--
  • late at night-- to Green Thursday.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me pull you back a little bit then,
  • because I don't want to rush through this.
  • Why do you think-- why do we need a gay radio show?
  • What were you hoping to achieve?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: As I said I was creating space.
  • By doing this, you were creating a gay space, strictly
  • gay space on the air that gay people
  • could listen to and feel representative by and supported
  • by.
  • I did several things.
  • One, there was always a news segment.
  • I gathered-- we had a newspaper called The Advocate
  • at that time, which was a key to the gay movement, by the way.
  • There was an analysis done by a law school,
  • I forget which one, which predicted
  • that the gay movement, of all the movements at that time,
  • had the best chance of success.
  • And one of the reasons for that success
  • was The Advocate newspaper.
  • It supplied us with nationwide news.
  • So I drew on that newspaper.
  • I drew on other newspapers, more local newspapers
  • that were available.
  • So there was a news segment.
  • So gay men and lesbian women could
  • be aware of what was happening nationwide or even
  • internationally.
  • The second segment was interviews
  • and I interviewed, say, Leonard Matlovich,
  • who was a pioneer in coming out as a military man.
  • I interviewed Franklin Kameny who, of course,
  • was a great gay leader.
  • I interviewed local people like Larry Fine
  • who were important to the local movement.
  • So through those interviews, which also-- oh,
  • they included a lot of things I hope you'll
  • be able to get a hold of.
  • I did interviews at the gay parades
  • in New York City going around recording speeches,
  • interviewing people in the street, recording the sounds,
  • and so on.
  • So that provided-- those interviews and recordings
  • provided a kind of framework.
  • It was bigger than simply Rochester.
  • And that became apparent.
  • Then, in terms of the music, I invented a forum.
  • There weren't any-- there weren't gay musicians
  • at that time.
  • There aren't very many now, but there weren't any then.
  • So I invented a forum to create gay music pairing
  • two male singers on different songs
  • but it's with using the vocals as if they're
  • talking to one another.
  • And if some of those recordings come out, you'll hear that.
  • Interestingly, I found out that the radio students at RIT
  • were asked to listen to the program.
  • And later on in other places in the country
  • I heard some of the devices that'd I'd
  • invented for this program being used for other purposes,
  • but being used.
  • So that was the real reason to provide support,
  • to say here we are, to tell people
  • that this is something big going on,
  • it's national and international, and that it's OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to cover--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Can I get a drink of water?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
  • You just said a lot there, but you've got to kind of condense
  • it a little bit--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --so I can actually use it.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So if you could just kind of,
  • let's focus more on the impact in the community
  • that you were hoping to achieve with this radio show.
  • Just tell me about, you know, I mean,
  • going out of the gate what you were hoping
  • for initially to achieve.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, you don't know what you're
  • going to achieve initially.
  • But I think the program was designed
  • to really reduce isolation.
  • I mean, rather than being the only gay boy in high school,
  • they could turn on the radio and hear some other gay voices
  • and hear about gays everywhere.
  • So you're not isolated anymore.
  • You're not the only one.
  • And the voice of the gay world isn't necessarily the same
  • as the voice your hear from your local psychologist or preacher
  • or parent.
  • So it was essentially my idea.
  • And when I said supportive I meant reduce isolation and make
  • people feel better about themselves,
  • which is why I did not involve--
  • engage in so much controversial stuff,
  • which is a different genre and not what I was interested in.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So what kind of reaction
  • were you getting from the community
  • then, either the gay community or, I mean,
  • the community as a whole?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, from the--
  • one of the reactions that most pleased
  • me is that a teacher at the Eastman School of Music
  • called up the station and told them
  • that our program had the best psychology of music
  • that he'd ever heard, that what I was talking about,
  • that's using music in a particular way.
  • And aside from that, I think it's hard to tell.
  • Because a lot of--
  • I talk to people later, years later in fact, here
  • who said they listened to it and that, you know, they were kids
  • and they'd be hiding away someplace
  • listening to this program.
  • So I think it did have the impact for many
  • of reducing the isolation they might otherwise
  • have experienced.
  • And I think it also provided-- it did provide good news.
  • The news programming was fairly well done.
  • And a couple of times, straight people actually called up
  • and said, "You know, I like to listen to your program
  • because you really provide continuity in your news
  • so I can follow a story that you're telling."
  • So it was good quality in that sense.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So at that time, I
  • can't imagine you were sitting there in the radio station
  • recording the show together thinking,
  • we're making history here.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: No, certainly not.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But looking back now in retrospect,
  • talk to me about the significance of having
  • a gay radio show in the 1970s here in a small town
  • called Rochester.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, so far as I know,
  • this was the first gay radio program
  • on a commercial station in the United States, maybe anywhere.
  • It may have been among--
  • I'm sure it was among the first regularly
  • programmed radio programs anyplace in the country.
  • So that didn't particularly concern me.
  • I was more concerned with the production, which
  • we had to go on every week.
  • And it took quite a bit of time to put together an hour's worth
  • of radio each week.
  • But, you know, I was aware that we were doing something
  • that was really unique.
  • And I enjoyed it in so far as it also--
  • I was able to travel.
  • I traveled a good deal to New York City,
  • to various conferences we had, ultimately
  • all the way to Edinburgh, Scotland
  • to provide material for this program.
  • So it was a lifestyle almost in terms
  • of the time it took to produce and the places it took me.
  • Bob Crystal, of course, had an important part
  • to play in this as well.
  • He was my partner on the station.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know, now that history is reflecting back
  • on what you guys had done then, if there
  • was one just concise message that you
  • want future generations to know about who you guys were
  • and what you were trying to do, what do you
  • want them to know about, about what you guys were trying
  • to do?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, how about how we did it.
  • We took risks.
  • Most people are risk adverse.
  • When we came out-- and they have--
  • I think it's important to understand the basis--
  • our jobs were at risk to come out in the way that we did.
  • I mean, if there's one thing we added to Rochester,
  • it was last names.
  • I mean, Rochester had an old gay community, as many cities did,
  • but nobody used last names.
  • You didn't use them.
  • You didn't even-- somebody you'd be
  • going to bed with, frankly, didn't always
  • use your last name.
  • So we publicly used them.
  • Though I have to tell you a funny story around that.
  • People called in the station, WCMF, and told the station
  • manager, "Well, if these guys are so out,
  • why are they using pseudonyms, Crystal and Jewell?"
  • So people didn't even believe that we were
  • using our real names, but yeah.
  • If you're going to do something, you have to take risks.
  • I was very concerned about the attitude
  • of psychologists who were our primary adversaries
  • in a certain way.
  • Their attitudes towards gay people
  • were downright ugly and biased without them realizing it.
  • And I was working at the Genesee Hospital
  • as a cardiovascular technologist.
  • And one day they had a conference of psychologists
  • at the Genesee.
  • And they had a very prominent psychologist
  • from the University of Rochester speaking on gay therapy.
  • Well, when he was done, I stood up amongst all these doctors
  • who were very-- you know, we're doctors,
  • they're very authoritarian, frankly--
  • and I stood up and I went up one side and down the other,
  • pointing out that, in essence, he
  • didn't consider the social context of what
  • his therapy was, this half cured man he was going to go and have
  • sex relationships in bathrooms and then go back to his wife.
  • What is he going to tell his wife
  • when she got a venereal disease, you know, or he got arrested?
  • What do you think is going to happen, Doctor?
  • They were like, you know, were like ichthyologists
  • who didn't know that fish lived in the sea.
  • That's the way the treated gay people.
  • So but what I'm pointing out there--
  • and this is not in a self-praise way--
  • you have to be willing, if you're actually
  • going to make changes of the type we made,
  • you have to be willing to take chances with yourself.
  • I once smiled-- somebody a few years ago said, "Well,
  • you could lose your job that way."
  • And I just-- I laughed.
  • I said, "Well I've lived all my life with the possibility
  • of losing my life-- my job."
  • Even my life.
  • I was thinking about I was threatened, given
  • death threats occasionally.
  • It's de rigueur for activism in this country, unfortunately.
  • But, yeah, you have to be willing to take a risk.
  • There's not a safe way of breaking
  • through a legal system, a religious belief
  • system, a psychology, and a custom of hiring and firing.
  • There's no safe way to do that, personally.
  • You've got to put yourself out, have to be willing,
  • and I think everybody in the seventies group did that.
  • They came out publicly, put themselves out, took the risks,
  • and sometimes they paid for them.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I just want to explore the radio show
  • just a little bit more.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Sure.
  • Can I take?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just going to start coming
  • at it at different angles here.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you just talk to me
  • a little bit about all the other things that were going on.
  • There was the Speakers Bureau, there
  • was the Empty Closet newspaper, all these things
  • that are there bringing the gay community out into the open.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Kind of put in context for me
  • how the gay radio show supported all of that.
  • It was part-- it was part of so many other things
  • that were going on.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Well, I don't think--
  • I think everything supported everything else.
  • It was of a kind.
  • It was a movement forward.
  • Each in its own way provided that space.
  • I have to go back to that analysis of space.
  • We were creating space and that's
  • what it was about, if you want to put it on an abstract level.
  • And each creation supported the other creation.
  • It wasn't-- none of it ever in isolation.
  • Remember, I mentioned to you that a study done by a law
  • school said, well, this movement's going
  • to succeed because of The Advocate newspaper,
  • they have the best communication.
  • So we were heavy into communication, obviously.
  • But it was all one thing supporting the other, one
  • thing making the other thing possible.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm going to just wrap this up.
  • I want to just once again reiterate
  • how the idea came about to start up a gay radio show.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: It came about because it
  • became a possibility.
  • And as I was talking to Bob Crystal, and he said,
  • "You were always one to let's do it."
  • So we all were let's do it.
  • I was particularly dynamic, perhaps,
  • more dynamic than some others.
  • Though, Bob Osborn was very active, very.
  • Bob did a lot of the political actions.
  • We did specialize more in shock actions.
  • I can remember a group of men and women
  • going to the top of the Midtown Towers.
  • There was a restaurant up there.
  • We all got up in our nice clothes and so on
  • and went up there.
  • And then, at a signal, we all got up
  • and the men started dancing with men and women
  • started dancing with the women.
  • Interestingly, the people up there got a big kick of it, out
  • of it and started to join in.
  • So it was very well-received.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Here's what I'm not getting a clear indication
  • though is--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --when the light bulb went off,
  • like where the initial idea for the radio show came from.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: My mind, learning it was possible.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, but you need to kind of put that--
  • you need to kind of spell that out for me about, you know,
  • whether, you know, some day you were just sitting, listening
  • to the radio and the idea came?
  • Was it like oh, we should have a gay radio station or--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: No, we were busy publicizing.
  • Well, I tried to explain that to you.
  • Any device that we could use, whether it
  • was dancing at the top of the Midtown Tower up there
  • or radio or--
  • I also appeared on TV, you know?
  • Anything that was open to us, we explored it and exploited it
  • to the best way we could.
  • And I don't remember precisely.
  • I knew that this possibility existed in radio.
  • And I said, I'll do it.
  • One of the things that may have helped me go in that direction
  • was the fact that I had done an enormous amount
  • of public speaking in college and high school.
  • I had won numerous state prizes in college for debate,
  • in oratory, for all kinds of public speaking.
  • So I was fairly accomplished.
  • Though oddly enough, I was not good on radio.
  • I was used to having an audience and I felt very awkward
  • not having an audience.
  • When I was on TV people said, "Well,
  • he's really professional."
  • Well, I just made the camera my audience and I was home.
  • But that may have been part of it, that I was, in that sense,
  • an experienced public speaker.
  • So it was pretty--
  • given the availability of a medium like radio,
  • I probably thought, well, I'll go for that.
  • I worked, you know, as we all did,
  • I worked a bit on the Empty Closet,
  • did the Speakers Bureau, and so on.
  • But I think it probably did the radio because I was a speaker.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me
  • a little bit about the excitement that I assume
  • you guys felt when the first time you hit the air,
  • you know, the energy that may have been in the studio?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I wouldn't call it excitement.
  • I would call it nervous energy.
  • I mean--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me about-- tell me about when--
  • the realization of like oh my god,
  • we're actually going to do.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: We're actually going to do it.
  • Well, WCMF wanted scripted programs.
  • They demanded a script.
  • Every program was scripted.
  • So that acted as a support because we
  • were able to hand the engineer a script.
  • And so we had things pretty well planned out
  • so as to minimize our own insecurities.
  • But, yeah, it was an exciting moment.
  • It was a long time ago.
  • I can't say specifically what.
  • But you can imagine that it was an exciting time
  • to go on the air for the first time.
  • We didn't know what was going to happen
  • it was new and unknown, another venturing into unknown again.
  • And, so, yeah, it was fun.
  • We had a good time.
  • One of the things I think that's true.
  • I've worked for straight organizations
  • and gay organizations, obviously.
  • Straight people don't know how to have fun.
  • Gay people do.
  • And they think we're not serious because of the way
  • we go about it.
  • But I told one--
  • head of one organization, straight organization, I said,
  • "You people aren't serious.
  • You just sit around looking grim as ever.
  • You can't really do things well that way."
  • So that's a very different take.
  • We had a good time.
  • We had a good time.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So all in all, when
  • it comes to the Gay Liberation Front or the gay radio
  • show, Green Thursdays, or whatever other activities
  • you were involved with and thought of--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --just very briefly
  • from your own personal point of view,
  • what are you most proud of?
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I'm proud of the fact--
  • and I'm proud of the people that I worked with--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'll let you put your water bottle down first
  • then answer that question.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I'm proud of the fact
  • that I and all the people we worked for had the--
  • I'll use a nice term here--
  • strength of conviction to do what we did.
  • I think that it was risky.
  • People-- you sometimes lost friends, even family,
  • for a while at least because of what you were doing.
  • So I'm very proud of the group of us,
  • including myself, for our strength of conviction
  • and that we not only talked the talk, so to speak,
  • we walked the walk and did the work
  • that allowed others to expand upon that at a later date.
  • One of the things I wanted to say in this
  • was that I think it's important that the work in the seventies
  • be seen as providing--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Wait for this person to walk by.
  • OK.
  • Let's pick it up from--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I've talked about creating space
  • because I think it's important to differentiate shoulders
  • to stand on, the first shoulders,
  • what you are standing on.
  • And you're standing on the people who created the space
  • and through, frankly, a high degree of daring
  • and often self-sacrifice.
  • And later groups of people did not
  • have to take quite that kind of leap.
  • We were leaping off into space.
  • You understand, there was nothing
  • there for us to build on, but to figure out.
  • We had meetings figuring stuff out.
  • The last meeting that I attended here in Rochester I got up
  • and I gave a little talk.
  • And I said, "You know, we can change the laws.
  • We can get the psychologists to see things differently.
  • But, ultimately, we're going to be battling the church."
  • And that's exactly what we thought
  • about what we were doing.
  • And we had to go with it in order
  • to provide a foundation for what we now have,
  • which is pretty impressive even though it's taken forty years
  • or so.
  • So that's what I think I am proudest of.
  • We were a group of people who were just
  • willing to take the leap and make it work.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought again.
  • I just want to get that without her high heels.
  • Just pick it up where you said that's what
  • I'm most proud about, we were a group of people--
  • BRUCE JEWELL: Oh, what I'm most proud
  • about is that we were a group of people who were willing to leap
  • into the unknown in order to create what we now call
  • the gay movement and take the chances that were required
  • in order to do that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
  • We'll leave it at that.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: OK, very good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
  • BRUCE JEWELL: I hope I didn't disappoint you.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, no, no.
  • I got what I want.
  • I don't let people go until I--