Video Interview, Dan Sapper, February 22, 2013
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So Dan, first thing, for the record,
- we just need the correct spelling
- of your first and last name.
- How you want it to appear on the screen.
- DAN SAPPER: Dan Sapper.
- D-A-N. S-A-P-P-E-R.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Like I said in my notes to you,
- primarily the focus is going to be on Lambda,
- but just talk to me first, about how
- you became aware of Lambda Network at Kodak,
- and what was it about that, that interested you
- enough to get involved.
- DAN SAPPER: I first became aware that there
- was this group forming when I saw an ad in the Empty Closet.
- It was just a few lines that said,
- attention Kodak employees, if you're
- interested in forming a gay and lesbian group,
- please call this phone number.
- And it was David Kosel. phone number.
- And I called it and said, what's going on?
- I had no inkling that something was
- happening until I saw this ad.
- And what I was told was, there was
- going to be some sort of planning meeting--
- formation meeting-- just getting the people
- who are interested together, and that was held at David's house.
- I don't even remember what time of year it was,
- but I think, somewhere around twenty,
- twenty-five people, maybe, showed up.
- Maybe around twenty.
- And it was really just kind of an open meeting.
- What are people interested in.
- Trying to figure out what, would the name of the group
- be, if we did have a group?
- And we were told that there had been some groundwork laid
- that Kodak had this opportunity for groups of employees
- to come together, if there was some business
- interest around it.
- And these were going to be called employee networks,
- and one or two had already formed,
- and I think that was the Woman's Forum of Kodak Employees
- and Network North Star, which was
- a group for African-American employees.
- So Lambda was born that night.
- We did a lot of brainstorming for names.
- And did we want something really in your face, kind of name?
- Did we want something that gays would recognize,
- but other people wouldn't?
- And that's how we came up with Lambda.
- We knew that that was a word used
- in early civil rights movement, and we said, maybe
- we should take part of that.
- And Lambda Network at Kodak began at that point.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to get a sense
- of not so much the why, but the need to develop this network.
- What was going on that gays and lesbians felt that they needed
- to come together and form this?
- DAN SAPPER: I think the need for a network
- was a little bit different in everybody's mind--
- in each participant's mind.
- It ranged from anything from feeling discriminated against
- or feeling harassed in the workplace
- to feeling isolated, lonely.
- Not knowing that there might be other gay people
- at the same company.
- Just a need for a feeling of a good place to be.
- I don't know that there was, at that point--
- at the beginning, at the very beginning--
- any talk about really creating a huge amount of change.
- I'm sure that, in some people's minds,
- maybe they saw an opportunity to address management,
- whether that was, hey, we need health benefits.
- Or hey, we need bereavement leave.
- But it was early, even in the gay rights movement,
- for those kinds of discussions.
- We're talking 1993, 1994.
- So why did we need it?
- I think there was just that common interest
- of finding a place for ourselves,
- some camaraderie, and some interest in making
- a difference in our workplace.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk about, maybe,
- some of the initial challenges of getting this group together?
- Where there internal challenges?
- Community challenges?
- DAN SAPPER: The biggest challenge
- that I remember, was figuring out, how do we find the gays?
- How do we find the lesbians?
- An add in the Empty Closet was state of the art at that point.
- And right around that same time--
- I think-- there was some computerisation starting
- to happen, and I think, really, one of our earliest challenges
- as a group was, how do we communicate to the workplace?
- How do we communicate to each other?
- And Kodak had an email system and an online bulletin board,
- in the days before the internet when places to post messages
- were something out of the pong era--
- green letters on a black screen.
- And we were able to convince Kodak
- that Lambda Network needed a computer bulletin board so
- that we could post messages that related to our group-- meeting
- notices, meeting notes.
- And that was a real big deal.
- That was probably, the first really big hurdle
- that we had to cross because when we went live with that,
- suddenly, we were out there.
- I don't think we really had many names up there,
- but that was a coming out for Lambda Network
- because suddenly, we were visible to the company,
- as one of the--
- I don't even remember how many bulletin boards were
- available on the screen, but it probably
- wasn't more than twenty or thirty.
- And suddenly, there was this one called Lambda Network at Kodak,
- and people would click on it and see that it
- was a gay group at Kodak and--
- that's when we started to get feedback.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, and the story that I heard
- was, it was up there very long before it had
- to be taken down for a moment.
- DAN SAPPER: And I don't remember it being taken down,
- but that wouldn't surprise me if it was.
- Maybe I missed that little interval.
- But I think we had to work out--
- if I recall-- I think we had to work out
- with the company, the kinds of things
- that we were allowed to post and the kinds of things
- we weren't allowed to post.
- It really had to be with regard to Lambda Network,
- with regard to the business at hand,
- and in support of Kodak's business.
- And we couldn't post community news,
- like the Empty Closet was posting the news.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me
- about once you guys did go live and you
- were up on those bulletin board and the word was getting
- around corporate, let's talk about some of the responses
- that you were getting.
- What was the initial response of the gay and lesbian community
- at Kodak, in regards to--
- was this a floodgate--
- did they open up?
- DAN SAPPER: I think the response early on,
- to Lambda and to having this ability to communicate,
- it took--
- I think-- it was a many-headed monster, in a way--
- monster's probably too strong of a term.
- But there was response from the general employee base
- that some people weren't ready for gay and lesbian diversity
- to be represented in the workplace.
- That was, kind of, the crux of the matter.
- I think the company and the management was ready for it.
- I think Lambda was ready for it.
- And there, at that point, had to be
- some pretty serious discussions between our network's leaders,
- and HR leaders, and top management of a company,
- that said, hey, look at this kind of stuff.
- Look at this kind of feedback that you're getting just
- for everyday postings that might be on our bulletin board.
- And if this is directed just at a bulletin board,
- imagine what's directed at us--
- as individuals.
- How that makes individuals feel.
- And so there was an acknowledgment--
- I think, at that point--
- that we were going to partner with the company,
- with the diversity director, with the HR
- people around the company, with the leaders across the company,
- to make things better.
- So there were some initial challenges
- that I don't think they were really unexpected to us,
- but I think the floodgate was unleashed.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You're into the Lambda Network.
- It's starting to take off.
- It had become pretty well recognized, not only in Kodak,
- but now, within Rochester as a whole.
- From your personal point of view,
- what was it about (unintelligible)
- that you choose to be so connected to it?
- What did you see that Lambda was doing,
- that you felt this is something that I need to commit to?
- DAN SAPPER: When I first started at Kodak,
- I was nineteen years old.
- I was in college.
- I was a co-op student so I was at Kodak for three
- or for months at a time, then I went back to college
- for the balance of the year.
- Then I was back for another work block.
- And I was out on campus at nineteen, twenty,
- twenty-one years old, but I was realizing, very quickly,
- that I was very in the closet in the workplace.
- And that was in the early to mid-eighties.
- So even as I started my professional life at Kodak,
- I was rather, in the closet.
- I wasn't sure how to present myself.
- Whether it was even appropriate to be gay at work.
- You know, what does that mean, being gay at work?
- It's basically just being yourself--
- as we can realize now.
- But at the time, it was definitely
- a feeling of being closeted.
- So Lambda-- for me-- represented an opportunity
- to explore that part of the workplaces.
- How do you integrate your authentic personal self
- with what you spend eight, nine, ten hours a day
- doing, as part of your career?
- And for me, I was an engineer, and gay and engineer
- don't exactly go together like the aptitude test said it
- would, or wouldn't.
- So there was this need for me, that Lambda brought together
- my personal self and my professional self in a way that
- wasn't expressed before.
- And being young at the time-- still relatively young
- and early in my career--
- there were role models in Lambda.
- People who were much more out in the workplace.
- People who were much more advanced in their career.
- Very sure of themselves.
- And knew how to network, and by network,
- I don't mean Lambda Network.
- They knew how to network among the company leadership,
- and I thought that was really cool.
- I said, I want to be part of that.
- I want to be able to do that.
- You spend all this time--
- I don't know how much of your waking life--
- one third of your waking life at work,
- and I wanted it to be more fulfilling, personally, to me
- so I just got involved and more involved.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So when was it-- in the work that you're doing
- with Lambda--
- that you realized-- maybe it was a given moment--
- that it dawned on you that, what we're doing here
- is really important.
- What we're doing here's really making a difference.
- DAN SAPPER: Was there really a moment where something dawned
- on me that we're making a difference,
- I think there were a lot of big moments,
- and there were a lot of little moments.
- Working through these problems--
- like this public bulletin board, this electronic bulletin
- board--
- and seeing the company's response
- and seeing that we had people who were
- responding to our concerns--
- that was one of those initial moments.
- But I think when things really started
- making a difference was when non-gay people started
- interacting with Lambda Network, and whether that was managers.
- Work groups.
- Work groups inviting Lambda representatives
- to come to their workplace and tell them
- what we're about, as a network.
- We started to get traction that way,
- and we saw that it wasn't just the gay and lesbian people
- wanting to make a difference, but that there
- were other people who wanted to make a difference,
- and they would partner with us and be our allies.
- And I think, that's when things really
- started to take off and get some traction,
- and feel like, we weren't a voice in the darkness.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me
- about that first the management event, management dinner--
- reception, whatever it was.
- Just talk to me about the experience of that evening.
- And again, that kind of moment that maybe, the realization
- that this could really work.
- DAN SAPPER: There was a vision which
- I did not see for this first ever educational event
- with management.
- The board of directors of Lambda and the executive team,
- the president, and President-elect--
- throughout this idea that we need
- to come together as a group and invite
- top management of the company, to hear what we have to say.
- And we were going to call this, the Educational
- Event with Management.
- And I was like, what the heck?
- What's this about?
- What are we going to do there?
- I don't get it.
- What's it going to be?
- But luckily, some of these role models
- that I mentioned earlier, had the foresight and the vision
- to create this opportunity for Lambda Network--
- gay, lesbian, and I think it was before we even
- used bisexual and transgender--
- but for the gays and lesbians to come together.
- Come out as a network, in front of the top leaders
- of the company, with them present at a big dinner--
- party, really.
- And have some presentation.
- And it started to come together.
- And one of the big news in our planning meeting was,
- was that George Fisher was going to want to address the room.
- So here, we had a room full of--
- at least, we planned to-- have a room
- full of gay and lesbian people from Lambda Network.
- Maybe some people who didn't want to associate with Lambda
- Network, but should have wanted to associate with us.
- So in other words, people who were still in the closet.
- And some managers that had to be convinced to attend and maybe,
- bring some of their work group with them.
- And we had the CEO of the company
- get up in front of a group and say, we have not only a right
- to be there, but we must be--
- gay and lesbian people must be present.
- Must bring themselves fully to the workplace.
- And to hear the CEO say that in front of his leaders
- and in front of the Lambda Network, that was really,
- really something.
- We had a guest speaker, who was Elizabeth Birch.
- This was before Elizabeth Birch became the executive director
- of the Human Rights Campaign.
- And I believe she was still working for Apple,
- Incorporated, at the time.
- And she also, was one of these visionaries who,
- herself, she was out at work.
- She was high up in her company.
- She was an out and proud leader.
- And she spoke to us as a company and said,
- this is what you must do as diversity leaders.
- And she broke new ground, by speaking to us.
- And it was just an overall wonderful coming out
- party for Lambda Network, and it was really
- an opportunity for the managers of the company,
- to see what it felt like to be in a room full of mixed crowd--
- gay and lesbian and straight allies.
- So it was really, a big thing, and Lambda took a lot of energy
- away from it.
- It was definitely a launching point for future successes.
- And the company took a lot away from it.
- It was definitely a launching point for change.
- Change at the leadership level.
- How they approached diversity.
- How they approached gay and lesbian--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you put into context for me,
- where Lambda Network stands historically,
- compared to other companies in the nation?
- Because if I remember right, Lambda was one of the first.
- It wasn't the first, but it was, probably,
- maybe one of the first five.
- DAN SAPPER: I don't know that answer.
- Where does Lambda stand in the pecking order of early employee
- resource groups?
- I know that IBM was more advanced than Kodak,
- in terms of employee resource groups or employee networks.
- And we looked to some of those early adopters
- for some direction, for some best practices.
- And I would say that, I don't know whether Lambda
- was in the first five, or first ten, or first fifty,
- but yeah, I think we were early, and we were active early.
- So I think we got good traction in the mid-nineties,
- that education event with management
- that we talked, about was 1996.
- For Lambda, we were seeking out, how do we make a difference?
- And we were attending diversity conferences,
- like the Creating Change Conference,
- which was sponsored by the National Gay and Lesbian Task
- Force.
- So we were early, but there were others in the Rochester area
- that we're making a difference, too.
- With GALAXe at Xerox.
- They were right there beside us so I
- don't want to claim to be way early,
- but I think we were early in the traction department.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm going to throw this question at you.
- In the early nineties, there was this need for this employee
- group, is the need still there?
- Has the mission had to evolve or change at all?
- How is Lambda twenty years later now, almost,
- different than it was when it first started?
- DAN SAPPER: Lambda today is very different than Lambda
- of ten or fifteen years ago.
- First of all, Kodak is much smaller company
- than we were ten years ago, and the public troubles of Kodak
- are well known, at this point.
- So our network has shrunk quite a bit.
- The interest level has diminished greatly,
- from the people who want to be members
- or should want to be members.
- Looking back and being involved at the beginning
- and being involved now and on the board of directors
- of Lambda at the beginning and being on the board of directors
- now, it's a struggle to keep interest going.
- And I think, part of that is because there
- have been so many advances made that the same kinds of issues
- or the kinds of issues that were important
- to be addressed in the mid-nineties.
- The need for health care insurance
- for our significant others--
- now we have Marriage Equality in New York.
- Kodak gave us health insurance for our domestic partners
- in 1997.
- So as things started to change at Kodak, where
- some of the needs were being met and more and more demonstration
- from the company, that we were accepted and included
- and part of the workplace, fully engaged,
- that I think people didn't see the need or now,
- don't see that need to come together as much.
- And I think, the gay community is just so much more visible,
- and there's so much more nuances in the types of groups
- that are available for people to participate in,
- that do people really feel a need to participate
- in a workplace group?
- Or are we being more authentic?
- And are the laws of the land supporting us
- in being more authentic?
- And I think that's the case.
- So it's very different now in maintaining the energy level
- with Lambda Network compared to what
- we were doing in the early 2000s, when we were getting
- four hundred or five hundred people attending
- our annual education event.
- So that early event that we had in 1996,
- with maybe eighty-five or ninety people in the room,
- grew to be an annual event with four hundred or five
- hundred people in the room.
- And boy, the energy level is just so different.
- Now, we try to do an annual event yearly,
- and we have to partner with--
- often, we partner with another employee network.
- We've partnered with the Empower Group which
- is a group that represents disabled employees
- or people with disabilities in the workplace,
- whether they're visible or invisible disabilities.
- But we get together, and we pull off these events,
- and we present some of our own information.
- So we're still active.
- It's just not nearly to the same level.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So is there this kind of, now
- what question out there?
- It's kind of like, we worked hard to get certain things,
- and we've pretty much got them.
- Now what?
- DAN SAPPER: That question gets asked every year.
- And having served on the board of directors quite
- a bit over the years, we start the year
- with that question, now what?
- Where are we?
- What did we accomplish?
- Where are we going?
- And it doesn't always feel like we're accomplishing something
- every moment of every month of every year,
- but when we look back and look at chunks of time
- and how things progress, we say, yeah, there's still a need.
- We're still here.
- We still want to serve.
- And so, we keep going on.
- We have ideas now--
- one of our things that we're looking at right
- now is a walk down memory lane.
- What have we accomplished in the-- it's almost twenty
- years since the concept arose, that Lambda Network was
- going to be this employee resource group.
- So we want to have a reunion.
- The retirees.
- The people who are still active employees.
- People who have transferred to other companies.
- People who have been laid off, but are still our friends.
- And let's get together for a reunion,
- and have a walk down memory lane.
- That's our plan for this year, and we
- think that we'll get a lot of energy from that.
- And may reinvigorate us.
- So we'll see.
- One way or another, it will be meaningful to the people who
- attend.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So when you look back, look at your work
- with Lambda Network, what are you most proud of?
- How do you want history to reflect upon Dan Sapper
- and what he's done?
- DAN SAPPER: I've thought about that question of,
- what have I accomplished?
- What's my legacy with this group?
- And what catches me most off guard
- is when people who I don't know, come up to me
- and know me because of my involvement with Lambda
- Network at Kodak.
- And that might be somebody who is in the closet and says,
- I really admire what you're doing.
- I really admire how much courage you've put into this.
- And it's like, it didn't seem like I was courageous
- at the time, but when people tell me
- that's how they perceive it, it's
- like, that's a reality for people.
- So I think what I get out of Lambda
- and what I think I'll be remembered for is
- that I tried to be more out.
- I tried to be a public face of being gay in the workplace.
- I'm not a big in your face kind of--
- here I am, but I did all this work, and that was really
- part of my interest in Lambda, was putting myself into it
- and seeing what came out of it.
- And I've mentioned, hey, I want to be like those role models
- that I saw so early in my career.
- And I do get some of that feedback,
- and sometimes, I don't even recall
- doing something or saying something and somebody will
- come up to me years later and say,
- you were such an inspiration for me
- when you put yourself out there or whatever
- it was that I did, that I don't remember.
- And all I can say is, wow.
- Something's coming back at me.
- It's payback time-- in a good way.
- It's just a really warm feeling.
- So seeing people have the confidence
- to come out of the closet in the workplace
- or come out of the closet to me because they
- know that I've done it, that's just a really good feeling.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Similar question.
- It's easy to look back now at those first days
- and those first couple of years, but I can't imagine back then,
- that you guys realized how groundbreaking
- and how historical that creating this network was going to be.
- DAN SAPPER: Living through the progress that Lambda has made
- and that Kodak, as a company, has made,
- everything was incremental.
- And when you live in that environment of increment,
- it doesn't seem historic.
- Looking back on it, yeah, I guess it sort of was.
- Cool.
- I don't think of it in those terms,
- but I know that other companies, other organizations have
- come to Lambda and said, how did you do it?
- What did you do?
- What's the best practice?
- So we became a benchmark, and that is historic, too.
- So it didn't always feel that way at the time,
- that we were doing groundbreaking work or earth
- moving work or really in the trenches,
- but every little thing added up.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: This next question,
- it just dawned on me--
- I didn't give you the questions ahead of time.
- Not about Kodak or Lambda.
- It's about you and Jim.
- I want to just get a nice sound bite from you
- about how you felt when you heard that gay marriage was
- passed in New York state.
- DAN SAPPER: That's a long story.
- How did I feel when I heard that the legislation was passed
- and going to be signed, that New York would have same sex
- marriage--
- Jim and I we're logged on to the internet for the New York--
- I think, it was the Senate that had to approve it second,
- after the House had approved it.
- For many years, the state House had approved it.
- Many times over, we were waiting for the Senate to approve it.
- We were logged onto the internet.
- We were watching the proceedings.
- We are waiting for the vote.
- My cousin and her husband were visiting us from out of town,
- staying with us--
- just for a day or two.
- And we were mesmerized by the proceedings on the internet.
- We had our laptop computer.
- We were carrying it around with us, all around the house.
- We were waiting for the vote.
- Come on.
- There were groups that were delaying it.
- And finally, the vote was taken, and the few members
- who crossed the aisle to support the majority vote, one of them
- was my representative in my district, who
- had voted against same sex marriage in prior votes,
- and changed his vote for this historic moment.
- And we were elated.
- And my cousin who was visiting said, it's passed.
- When are you getting married?
- And I know that there were couples
- who were waiting at City Hall for the first day
- that the law went into effect, which
- was a month after the legislation was signed
- by the governor.
- We were not right there.
- We were about a month after that,
- that we tied the knot in a very small ceremony held
- in our backyard.
- But it was earth shattering.
- We had waited for that moment.
- A year later, when we started filling out our taxes,
- we realized, this is really messed up
- at the federal level versus the state level
- because the tax forms are all intertwined,
- but the federal forms don't allow
- us to file as being married.
- Anyway, that's a sideline, but we were very happy.
- And there's a tie in here to Lambda Network
- because somewhere--
- k-- think around 2005 or 2006, perhaps,
- Lambda's annual educational event,
- the theme was same sex marriage.
- I don't remember the title exactly,
- but marriage, justice, equality for all-- something like that.
- And Jim and I spoke at that event,
- what would it mean if we could get married?
- And there were several couples who spoke.
- There was a lesbian couple who had children together, and were
- among the first in New York State--
- maybe among the first in the country-- who were allowed
- to adopt as same sex parents.
- They spoke.
- Jim and I spoke.
- One of the top leaders of the company
- spoke, what would it mean to the company,
- if same sex marriage were legal.
- So even however many years before the legislation
- was passed--
- five, six, seven years prior--
- Jim and I had to sit down and think about, what would it
- mean if we could get married?
- And we had to put our words on paper.
- And we had to read it back to an audience of four hundred
- or five hundred people.
- So it became a reality in our lifetime,
- and it was meaningful to us.
- We didn't plan a big wedding.
- Some of our friends have had big weddings,
- and they've been wonderful.
- It wasn't in the cards for us right at that time.
- So we're married.
- We're happy.
- And hopefully, the marriage equality
- will continue to propagate in other states,
- and hopefully, become the law of the United States,
- not just the individual states.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: With that, we'll leave it there.
- Good job.
- Brian will get that microphone off of you.