Video Interview, Gary Sweet, November 1, 2012

  • GARY SWEET: It's going to be read I mean it's not--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, yeah it just--
  • GARY SWEET: It's not unfixable.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • It's not a lot.
  • Just keep in mind that the audience
  • is going to hear a little sound bite from you
  • but you need to make sure they understand
  • what you're talking about.
  • GARY SWEET: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • First question is the easiest one.
  • I need the correct spelling of your first and last name
  • and how you want it to actually appear on screen.
  • GARY SWEET: Gary.
  • G-A-R-Y. S-W-E-E-T.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • And Gary, the first thing I want to talk about
  • is the early days here in Rochester,
  • what the gay scene was like in the sixties and seventies.
  • What was it like for the life of a gay man here in Rochester?
  • GARY SWEET: In my recollection.
  • The beginning would be in 1965 when I first started coming out
  • as a gay man in Rochester.
  • When I got out of the service, I started
  • going to the first gay bar which was Dick's 43 on Stone Street.
  • And Martha Gruttadauria was the owner of that
  • and she protected the gay community the best
  • that she knew how.
  • We were allowed in there, you were not
  • allowed to dance unless she gave you an OK to dance.
  • The cops, the police officers, were not as friendly
  • as they are today.
  • They were anti-gay, I'd have to say, back then.
  • They did not like to see two men together.
  • Drag Queens were a no-no.
  • There weren't any drag bars per se,
  • until close to 1970 when the Blue Chip opened up
  • and then the female impersonators
  • had to wear one piece of men's clothing.
  • And they were frequently raided by the officers.
  • And Martha had a son-in-law who was a detective
  • and he was our best friend.
  • And he would call her and tell her
  • whether the police were going to arrive.
  • She would blow a whistle and we'd
  • have to stop dancing and sit down.
  • And it was scary back then.
  • Most of the activity was in the parks
  • and cruising on the streets because there
  • was no safe place for us to go except for Dick's 43.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me pull you back a little bit.
  • Talk to me a little bit about what it was like walking
  • into Dick's.
  • You know, was there apprehension there?
  • Were you afraid that somebody might see you walking
  • into Dick's?
  • What was the environment like when you got into Dick's?
  • GARY SWEET: The first time that I
  • went into a gay bar, which was Dick's 43,
  • I had been driving around quite a while--
  • I was new to the scene--
  • until somebody came out and said, "Hey you
  • going to drive around or are you going to come in?"
  • And it scared me going in there.
  • Not knowing what I was going to find, who I was going to find,
  • and how I was going to be treated when I walked in there.
  • And there were a couple of times when people came in
  • that I knew that were not gay and I
  • would hide in the men's room or in the ladies room.
  • And my friends would let me know when they were gone.
  • It was totally closeted back then.
  • There was no well, maybe I can come out or I can't.
  • It was totally closeted in there and you
  • would stare at people walking through the door.
  • Is he here to harass us or is he gay?
  • And everybody was scrutinized walking through the door.
  • Once you were inside and you became known inside you
  • were a family, you were protected,
  • you were treated well.
  • But the first time you walked into a gay bar
  • you had to really, really want to be in there because you were
  • scrutinized and you were watched to make sure
  • that you belonged in there and not somewhere else.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Brings up an interesting question
  • is, in that day how was a place like Dick's even
  • allowed to exist?
  • GARY SWEET: Dick's 43 was the gay bar in that era
  • basically because Martha Gruttadauria had the gumption
  • to realize that there was a need for a place for gay men to go.
  • Not women, women were not allowed in there.
  • And the gay men were her sons.
  • She had a need for wanting people around her
  • and she enjoyed it.
  • And also, because she had a detective son-in-law
  • which really helped her establish a gay bar.
  • Those that tried to open up--
  • there were a few, I really can't remember the names of them
  • that tried to open up--
  • and she didn't allow them to be around.
  • I mean, she had the market on the gay bar.
  • I mentioned the Blue Chip.
  • They did try drag shows there.
  • It was not a gay bar, only on weekends and at nighttime.
  • During the day it was a local bar
  • and the owners wanted to get their foot into the market.
  • And one of the drag queens, Jackie was her name,
  • got some other people together, decided to put on a show.
  • And once Martha Gruttadauria got wind of it
  • the place was raided.
  • And the drag queens were hauled off to jail,
  • we were thrown out.
  • The gay men were not arrested.
  • The drag queens were all arrested.
  • And it was scary but we laughed and we enjoyed it.
  • We went back for more.
  • I mean, this is, you know--
  • We defied them to stop us or they defied them to stop them.
  • The drag queens were feisty back then.
  • They really were.
  • And as long as they had one piece of men's clothing
  • on they were not thrown in to the general public,
  • they were kept separate.
  • But it was mostly the female impersonators
  • or the drag queens that were scrutinized back then.
  • And the gay men stuck together.
  • And we knew where we were allowed
  • and where we weren't allowed.
  • And we didn't venture where we weren't allowed.
  • And when the females started coming out
  • to their bars, which would be the 212 and the Riverview,
  • the men were not allowed in.
  • So back then it was definitely a split.
  • You were either a lesbian or a gay woman or a gay guy
  • and we did not mix well.
  • We were not allowed in the women's bar
  • unless we were escorted by a woman.
  • Otherwise, you didn't go in there.
  • The lesbians, or female gays, back then was one gender.
  • They were all butch.
  • There was no fem lesbian and butch lesbian.
  • They were all butch.
  • They were defying society.
  • Saying, you know, this is what we're going to be.
  • Today it's so much better than it was back then.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to follow up with that.
  • I want to know when did you get a sense of gay men and lesbians
  • coming together and why?
  • GARY SWEET: Gay men and gay women
  • didn't start to gel together or socialize together
  • until probably after the AIDS epidemic came into play.
  • That I think everybody realized at that point
  • that we were all in this together.
  • It was definitely a gay man's disease
  • but the lesbian community decided that we're all gay too.
  • And they started venturing into the men's bars
  • and then the men were allowed into the women's bars.
  • And it started to come together as a family,
  • instead of gay men and gay women.
  • And I think the AIDS epidemic is when it started.
  • When I started seeing lesbians coming into the Avenue Pub.
  • And Rosie's opened up, which was supposed
  • to have been a female bar and it was a mixed bar.
  • And Friar's allowed women in there.
  • It wasn't one special occasion, it just
  • started to just slowly trangressed
  • into a gay community and not a separate community.
  • There wasn't two separate entities.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just tell me for reference,
  • where was the Blue Chip?
  • Do you remember?
  • GARY SWEET: The Blue Chip was over Glide Street.
  • Child street, Glide Street in that area.
  • I can't remember now exactly on Glide Street or Child Street.
  • It was Child, the name, or Glide Street.
  • It was in that area over there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk about the drag
  • queens just a little but more.
  • Back then were they known as drag queens
  • or were they known more as female impersonators?
  • GARY SWEET: The Blue Chip--
  • when the female impersonators first came out to the Blue Chip
  • they were drag queens.
  • The term female impersonator didn't, I think, come into play
  • until later on when they started doing more big production
  • numbers and impersonating a star.
  • I think that's where the female impersonator first came out.
  • Because back on the drag queens would
  • take on the persona of Liza Minnelli or Judy Garland.
  • And they were known by that name.
  • I mean, if they were doing Liza Minnelli they were known
  • as Liza, not by their male.
  • Or they were known as Judy Garland,
  • they were known as Judy or Shirley Bassey.
  • This is what they were known as, the female impersonator.
  • Before that, when I first started going out,
  • was drag queens and that's what they were, drag queens.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, jumping back a little bit here.
  • You skipped over (unintelligible).
  • When you were here in Rochester--
  • do you remember hearing about the Stonewall when it happened
  • in New York?
  • Do you remember what all about what Rochester's reaction to it
  • was?
  • GARY SWEET: The big turning of events of Stonewall in New York
  • City didn't really affect Rochester except for the fact
  • that we were so proud of what was going on there.
  • And that people had the gumption to stand up
  • to the police who really harassed them in New York City.
  • It brought our community stronger
  • to realize that if they can do it, why can't we do it?
  • But I didn't see any actual events
  • here except for the applause that we gave everybody
  • in there.
  • Then San Francisco got into it and it just started escalating.
  • But as far as Rochester, we were such a conservative city.
  • Because of the growth of Kodak and Xerox
  • and Bausch & Lomb that the people here at Rochester
  • were still afraid to stand up outside or inside
  • their workplace and acknowledge the fact that they were gay.
  • So it was still not as closeted but because
  • of our conservative city it was still closeted.
  • We all were happy that something was happening, that somebody
  • was doing something for us.
  • And that it was going to come back to Rochester eventually
  • and we were going to feel it.
  • But it was great to read about and watch and see
  • that these people had the gumption to stand up.
  • Because New York City of San Francisco
  • are so open because of the theatrics
  • there and San Francisco is the melting pot for gay people
  • back then.
  • Fortunately, now we can go anywhere we want to go
  • and we're welcome anywhere we go and they started that.
  • But it was a ripple effect for Rochester.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So in time you left Dick's, and you
  • started your own business with the Avenue Pub.
  • You took over the Avenue Pub.
  • Talk to me about those first few days.
  • And more importantly, I want to kind of get
  • a feel what was going on inside your head of what
  • it is you were--
  • what it is you trying to do?
  • Not only just in operating a bar.
  • But what it is you think you were providing
  • for the gay community?
  • Talk to me about those early days and the kind
  • of thinking behind it?
  • GARY SWEET: In 1975, I was managing bars
  • for a family in Rochester that owned thirteen bars.
  • And I was basically I guess you would call a general manager
  • of seven of them.
  • And at that time they had the bar that is now the Avenue Pub,
  • it was called Neil's Cocktail Lounge, that was in trouble
  • and they wanted somebody to buy it from them
  • or buy it as their partner.
  • And they offered this to me.
  • I was married.
  • I had small children.
  • It was a big venture for me to do this.
  • And I agreed to it and took it over.
  • As I said, it was Neil's Cocktail Lounge back then
  • and they got closed down for violations.
  • I received my liquor license.
  • I did some remodeling.
  • Not intended ever to have a gay bar
  • because of my marital status and my children.
  • I just wanted to be in the bar business, I enjoyed it.
  • I had been doing this since I was eighteen.
  • When I was in the service I was tending bar.
  • No matter what I did before the Avenue Pub
  • I always had my hands in the bar business as tending bar
  • somewhere part-time or whatever.
  • And word got out that Gary Sweet had
  • bought a bar and my gay friends heard about it.
  • And I didn't encourage anything.
  • It wasn't a sign saying gay bar.
  • I would never do that, once again,
  • because of my marital status.
  • But once they found out about it and I
  • opened my doors that's all that I seemed to be getting
  • were the gay people.
  • My friends coming in to wish me luck.
  • But Monroe Avenue was not going to have that.
  • It was unheard of for a gay bar on Monroe Avenue.
  • Even the other gay bar owners at that time
  • told me that I would never last because of the area
  • I was going into.
  • These were all 8:00 a.m.
  • bars, fifteen cent drafts.
  • And when I bought this place it was an Indian biker bar
  • and they were having nothing of me being inside that place.
  • They harassed me.
  • I was sent to the hospital twice where they beat me up.
  • Came in and blocked the doors, put up their flag,
  • wouldn't let anybody leave, and said that you
  • know I had to be out of there.
  • Luckily, I had a cousin who was on the police force.
  • And back then, in those times, we had the paddy wagon.
  • And he was on assignment on the Goodman, Monroe Avenue
  • and would stop in every single day to make sure I was OK.
  • And notify these people that if they harmed me one more time
  • that they were going to be in jail.
  • My father would come in and sit at the head of the bar
  • protect me.
  • I had a bouncer with a German Shepherd that was in there.
  • It took three years at least before I was established
  • as a gay bar and left alone.
  • They would throw open the front door,
  • throw eggs and rocks in there.
  • And today the Avenue Pub the front door is for exit only.
  • Being on the sidewalk, I still have a little fear
  • of homophobic people walking by and I
  • don't want my customers hurt.
  • So the front door is exit only.
  • And we have our own little side door that we come in.
  • But from 1975, when I first opened up, to 1977-78
  • it was scary.
  • They were not going to allow this.
  • And then Friar's opened up that Monroe Avenue, Rosie's opened
  • up on Monroe Avenue, and the gay community was
  • accepted that Monroe Avenue.
  • They started leaving us alone knowing that we
  • weren't going to go away.
  • So the first couple of years were really scary.
  • But I had no intention to have a gay bar.
  • That was not my intention.
  • My gay friends said I was going to have a gay bar.
  • They forced it upon me and I'm glad they did.
  • I've been there thirty-seven years
  • and I love every minute of it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: At some point you became more than just a bar
  • for the gay community.
  • You became actively involved in number of different causes.
  • Particularly during the AIDS crisis, the gay picnics,
  • and all that.
  • Talk to me about the importance for you
  • being actively supportive of the gay community
  • other than just serving drinks.
  • GARY SWEET: After I became established as a gay bar
  • and was recognized for having a gay bar
  • I started getting involved in different causes in Rochester.
  • The organizations would come and ask, "Gary, can we
  • hold a fundraiser here?"
  • Or "Will you partake in a fundraiser?"
  • And no matter what I was asked I never said no.
  • There was always a need for money to be raised.
  • And when the AIDS epidemic started there were fundraisers.
  • There was HPA that was held.
  • They asked me to partake in that.
  • And everything was a cause.
  • And I feel very proud that over the years
  • I have accumulated thirty-seven awards that they honored me
  • with for being part of this.
  • And I feel honored that they asked me to be part of this.
  • That somebody had to take a stand
  • and help with these organizations.
  • Because everything was new to everybody.
  • There was no precedent for any of this.
  • When they started the HPA and the Dining
  • for Dollars and nobody had done this before.
  • So it was all--
  • we were all taking the chance and the gay community
  • sticks together here at Rochester.
  • Very close knit family.
  • Everybody helps each other.
  • If there's a need or a cause we're going to help each other.
  • And it wasn't just me, the other bars got involved in on it.
  • But it was a joy, it was a pleasure
  • to be part of all of that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's pick it up with HPA.
  • Talk to me about the first time that Dan Meyers came to you
  • and asked you to help with the first Dining for Dollars event.
  • GARY SWEET: The biggest event that was held back then was HPA
  • or what they was known as Dining For Dollars.
  • And a good friend of mine Dan Meyers,
  • who was better known as Nana, came to me and with this idea
  • that they were going to have a fundraiser.
  • That they were going to have people
  • hold dinners in their homes and then have dessert and drinks
  • at a central location where everybody
  • could come afterwards.
  • And people having dinners would raise money at their dinners
  • and everybody join in.
  • So they selected the place that were they
  • were going to have it, which was the Village Gate.
  • Never been done before.
  • And Dan said, "Would you do the bars for us and set it up?"
  • And of course it was just an empty room.
  • So we had a supply bring everything, the bars,
  • the liquor, the set up, everything.
  • And he said, "We'll get about fifty to one hundred people,
  • maybe one hundred and fifty people."
  • So I said, "OK, that sounds good."
  • And at the time I had a partner who
  • was involved in this with me also
  • and we went and set this whole place up.
  • Well, lo and behold, within the first hour
  • and a half there were over three hundred people in there.
  • The place just filled up.
  • It was wonderful.
  • Ran out of stuff.
  • We were running around trying to get things.
  • That was the first one and then people
  • realized that this was going to get bigger.
  • So Dan and--
  • OK my mind just went blank.
  • Excuse me.
  • The one from Midtown.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Not Jesse?
  • GARY SWEET: No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No?
  • Neil?
  • GARY SWEET: Neil Parisella.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • So take that.
  • GARY SWEET: After the first one Dan
  • decided this is going to be a little bigger so we
  • needed a bigger venue for this.
  • And there was a wonderful, wonderful window decorator
  • in charge of Midtown Plaza, Neil Parisella,
  • who was a good friend of Dan's.
  • And Dan went to him and they collaborated.
  • And Neil was able to give us Midtown Plaza.
  • For viewers who don't remember Midtown Plaza it was huge,
  • it was gorgeous.
  • But we couldn't get in there until six o'clock
  • at night when all the stores were closed.
  • Well, Neil would turn this place into a wonderland
  • in decorated it.
  • And it was the upper balcony of the place and the lower.
  • And as time grew, we went from one bar being set up,
  • we had four bars set up.
  • And it went from three hundred people
  • to thirteen hundred people.
  • Rochester came out in full force in support of this epidemic,
  • this AIDS epidemic.
  • Thousands of dollars were supposed to have been raised.
  • Hundreds of thousands of dollars were end up being raised.
  • When finally the HPA Dining for Dollars started dwindling.
  • Today they do the restaurant Dining for Dollars type
  • of thing.
  • The restaurants that will hold a function and you pick
  • your restaurant you want to go to and pay
  • so much money and the money goes towards AIDS.
  • But back then it was a huge party for the gay community
  • to get together and raise money for a worthy cause.
  • But it all started with Dan Meyers and Tony Green.
  • And from one bar of fifty to one hundred
  • people it turned into thousands of people at Midtown
  • and from there it went-- after Neil Parisella passed away, it
  • went to the convention center.
  • Which was a little bit too large for us, the venue.
  • People felt that they were spread out too much.
  • You didn't have the closeness anymore
  • that you did in Midtown.
  • And it just started dwindling after a while.
  • But the highlight of it was the Midtown.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm going to jump back a little bit.
  • I'm going to kind of jump all over the place here.
  • I just realized I forgot one thing.
  • In regards to the Police harassment
  • at the gay bars and police harassment--
  • arresting men in the parks and all that.
  • At some point Gordon Urlacher came into the picture.
  • and I just kind of want to get your thoughts
  • about having a police liaison for the gay community.
  • And more importantly, what was Gordon Urlacher like?
  • Why do you think it was such a significant aspect
  • to have someone like Gordon in that position?
  • GARY SWEET: The time in Rochester
  • where men were using in the parks and--
  • basically, the parks is a pickup place outside of the bars
  • because there weren't that many bars
  • and we were still being harassed by the police.
  • The police start arresting people and the gay community
  • came together.
  • And decided that we needed some protection.
  • And they formed the gay liaison with the police department.
  • And our first officer that was assigned to us,
  • who we were able to call if we were being harassed unduly
  • or if something happened to us, was Gordon Urlacher, a big guy.
  • Very big guy.
  • And I think at the beginning he was a little skeptical of what
  • he was being assigned to do but he turned out
  • to be our best friend.
  • Gordon would come into the bars and check on us.
  • We all had his phone number.
  • All the owners had Gordon's personal phone number.
  • We could reach him twenty-four hours a day.
  • And he would be by our side any time there was any harassment.
  • He was our liaison between the chief of police, the officers,
  • and sometimes the courts.
  • If we needed him to be there he was there.
  • He was the first one and there were many to come after.
  • But he sticks out with us more than anything else
  • because being the first one and also he was the most visible.
  • I mean, we still have today but because we don't have
  • the need that we had back then.
  • Our liaison is there for us if there is a need.
  • Fortunately we don't have the need.
  • But back then we kept Gordon jumping a lot.
  • He was he was a busy man.
  • But he made his rounds of everyone of the bars
  • that were around.
  • And saw to it every weekend he would make an appearance
  • to help us out.
  • And at one point we had up to thirteen bars of Rochester.
  • So he was a busy man and he was a good friend.
  • He was a very good friend.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And did you really see
  • that as a kind of turning point in
  • regards to the relationship of the gay community
  • and the community at large, particularly law enforcement
  • community?
  • GARY SWEET: Gordon Urlacher's presence and support
  • of the gay community gave him an opportunity
  • to talk to the other officers that he knew,
  • and he knew a lot of them, to explain to them that there was
  • no fear of the gay community.
  • There's no need to be as crass as you are with them.
  • And some of them were very crass.
  • I mean, we were not welcome.
  • I mean, we were outcasts.
  • But Gordon opened their eyes to the fact
  • that these are working men, teachers, some of them
  • are lawyers, some of them doctors.
  • There's no need for you to treat them
  • the way they're being treated.
  • And the police officers started backing off.
  • My relationship with the police today and even back
  • then is wonderful.
  • They want you to respect them and they'll respect you.
  • And they want you to feel free to call them,
  • especially today, if you have a problem they'll
  • be right there for you.
  • But Gordon Urlacher is the one that originally made them aware
  • of the fact that hey, you can't treat these people the way
  • you're treated them.
  • I don't like to use the word these people
  • but back then that's what we were, "these people,"
  • "those people."
  • We weren't brothers and sisters.
  • It was well, look at those people over there.
  • And he changed a lot of that.
  • I mean, the police officers now they march in our gay parades.
  • You know, they're wonderful but for Rochester he
  • was the turning point for us with the police department.
  • He even opened the police chief's eyes to us.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, I'm jumping around
  • here a little bit.
  • I want to get back to the Avenue Pub.
  • Aside from the, you know, the Blue Chip
  • you were one of the first who started hosting drag shows
  • at your own establishment.
  • Talk to me about that.
  • Talk to me about having those drag shows.
  • It was in the back building or something, right?
  • GARY SWEET: The Avenue Pub like I
  • said was basically a men's bar.
  • Women would come in occasionally because I had female bartenders
  • there.
  • And then there was a young man that came to me
  • and said, "We want to do a drag show."
  • And I said, "I have no room.
  • There's no way you could do a drag show."
  • "We need someplace to do a drag show."
  • And a very young guy, his name is Wayne and known
  • as Liza Minnelli.
  • And he pressured me and pressured me
  • and finally I said, "If you get some people together fine,
  • we'll find a way have a drag show."
  • And he was the Avenue's Pub first Miss Avenue Pub was Liza.
  • And he's proud of that title today, he really is.
  • I think he was probably eighteen.
  • And then some other drag queens started wanting to do shows.
  • And finally, I had a person that worked
  • for me who was very well known in the gay community.
  • He had his own bar for a while actually, it was Roy Lawrence.
  • And he was running the kitchen for a while doing dinners
  • and after hour breakfast.
  • And he was known in Rochester as Miss--
  • I don't think I'm going to pronounce it right--
  • Uru?
  • Uruhu?
  • And he decided he wanted to do a huge drag show that has never
  • been seen before.
  • And behind the Avenue Pub there was this large garage,
  • warehouse type thing that sat vacant.
  • And he said, "Why can't we do a drag show in there?"
  • I said, "Roy, it's not--" He said, "I'll take care of it."
  • Well, he put up a stage and runway
  • and we had drag shows behind the Avenue Pub.
  • Huge drag shows.
  • And that was one of the first, I believe,
  • Miss Gay Rochester was elected was back in that building.
  • And of course I had to have permits for that
  • because it wasn't part of the Avenue Pub per se.
  • But they were good times.
  • I mean, they were a lot of fun.
  • The Avenue pub was a drag bar at one point.
  • I've probably been about everything there
  • is to be in thirty-seven years.
  • But the first drag queen we had was Liza.
  • And that started that as everything else the fad changes
  • and the larger drag bars opened up, Jim's.
  • And the Avenue Pub wasn't equipped to do those anymore.
  • But it gave them a place to start and they enjoyed it.
  • It gave them a place for them to dress up and do their numbers.
  • And it was fun then.
  • I'm glad there are drag places now or places for drag shows,
  • such as Tilt I believe is today.
  • Back then it was 40 Union or Muthers it was for drag.
  • Everybody needs a place to go so.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch a little bit on the camaraderie
  • that a lot of you bar owners had among each other.
  • That you support each other.
  • You know, you each had your own little night
  • and you all respected that.
  • Talk to me about that camaraderie.
  • Talk to me about how important it
  • was in keeping this sense of community
  • for the gay community.
  • GARY SWEET: As the gay community became more accepted,
  • and once again Gordon Urlacher that
  • started opening doors for us with the police department,
  • bars started opening up.
  • There was Friar's and Rosie's.
  • Before that there were other bars,
  • but as it started getting bigger when they opened up
  • other bars started opening up and the Forum--
  • well the Forum was opened before me.
  • It was four gentlemen that owned.
  • That's why they're Bachelor Forum.
  • Four men opened it up was over on Goodman street and Main.
  • They're now on Atlantic.
  • And it was Friar's and Rosie's and myself.
  • And we decided that we had to do something
  • to band together and not hurt each other.
  • Because, you know, there was enough.
  • So we formed the Bar Owner's Association.
  • And once a month we would meet at each other's houses.
  • It was a different home every month
  • and establish our agenda for the month.
  • And if the Forum was planning a function
  • we all supported that function.
  • If Friar's was having a function or a fundraiser
  • or whatever it might be we all were behind it.
  • We 100 percent did not step on each other's toes
  • and it was great back then.
  • It was just wonderful.
  • We knew what the other bars were planning
  • and we knew when they were going to hold it.
  • We didn't try to compete with them.
  • When we were having ours they didn't try to compete with us.
  • When I had Christmas in July--
  • I think I had the first Christmas in July ever,
  • I actually dressed up a Santa Claus--
  • they all came out and supported it.
  • I mean, the owners would come to each other's functions.
  • And slowly when bars closed or when
  • people change that's dwindled.
  • Today I don't say we step on each other's toes,
  • we don't do that, but we're not 100 percent supportive
  • of each other.
  • And sorry it fell apart because it
  • was a great help for all of us to be able to plan together.
  • You know, and we would give each other ideas.
  • You know, well I'm too small to do this but hey, you can do it.
  • You know, why don't you do this.
  • A lot of it was for fund raising and a lot of it
  • was just for fun.
  • But we all hung each other's posters up
  • and helped each other.
  • And it was great back then.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And unique.
  • I hate to say this but I can't imagine
  • any of the straight bars doing that with each other.
  • GARY SWEET: The gay bars, we had to stick together because we
  • are a small community.
  • And to make all of the gay people
  • feel comfortable back then we tried
  • to do something that was different from any place else.
  • We tried to get them to know that all the bars got along
  • and we were all the same.
  • Differential from what type of crowd you had
  • or what size you were.
  • To make them know that they--
  • we were all in this together.
  • And it was a great experience at that time.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move on a little bit to--
  • now, let's talk about AIDS.
  • You were a bar owner when AIDS hit Rochester.
  • Talk to me about those first days,
  • those first couple of years of when we started hearing
  • about AIDS in Rochester.
  • And what you were seeing happening in the bars,
  • in particularly your own bar.
  • And you had some fears yourself there
  • that you had to come to terms with.
  • GARY SWEET: The biggest change in the gay community
  • was when the AIDS epidemic first became well-known outside
  • of New York or San Francisco.
  • Rochester heard about this disease
  • that gay men were getting in San Francisco and New York
  • but it hadn't hit Rochester.
  • And the first few cases, or ten to fifteen cases
  • that were known.
  • It was a very well-kept secret.
  • People didn't go around saying I have AIDS.
  • Even today it's still a kept secret
  • even though we are much more informed
  • and the drugs are there are phenomenal today.
  • Thanks to people like Dr. Valenti.
  • But back then when we first heard about it
  • and I'm sorry to say that if someone came in to the pub--
  • and I don't think only my bar but other bars
  • also but I'm speaking for myself--
  • that people came in there that were known or looked
  • as if they had AIDS because back then it
  • progressed very rapidly because we didn't have the drugs.
  • It wasn't slow.
  • It was rapid.
  • You knew from weight loss, gauntness,
  • lesions on their face, whatever it might be.
  • You'd just, "He has AIDS" you just whispered.
  • And customers would shy away from them.
  • And even if they were known people, I mean,
  • if I knew them a year before that or six months
  • before that when they would come in
  • and the suspected, suspected of having AIDS,
  • people shunned away from them.
  • There were times when they'd serve them a drink
  • and people would say, "You're not going
  • to keep that glass are you?
  • You can't wash that and serve it to somebody else, you know."
  • After the customer left.
  • They were never told they couldn't come in.
  • But they were-- like when gay people first
  • came out you were ostracized.
  • I mean, it was that type of feeling
  • that you weren't welcome.
  • They felt it too.
  • Which I'm embarrassed to say that I ever,
  • ever partook in that but we were scared.
  • Nobody knew anything.
  • There was no information, there were no pamphlets for us
  • to read, there was nothing.
  • We only heard about it through the news,
  • from New York City, and San Francisco.
  • And when it started hitting you Rochester it was--
  • So yes, I did not keep the glass and I'm ashamed to say it.
  • It took probably a good eight months to a year
  • before we started having any knowledge, any written
  • information, any--
  • on how to stop-- not stop AIDS-- but how we can prevent
  • ourselves from getting AIDS.
  • And once again Dr. Valenti was a big part of that.
  • Stepping up and making issues aware to the public
  • here in Rochester and informing us
  • that this was not going away.
  • And it wasn't something to be ashamed of but you
  • have to do something to prevent it, the spread of it.
  • And he started having the pamphlets and the information
  • to the gay bars.
  • I mean, because that's where it was from.
  • And it was very, very scary in the beginning
  • and then we started doing the fundraisers.
  • Once again, like I said the HPA stuff and people were more
  • acceptable and knew that our brothers and sisters were
  • getting sick.
  • That they didn't have to get sick.
  • And we knew now how to prevent it.
  • We weren't going to stop it, but we
  • knew how to prevent it amongst ourselves.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Kind of following along with that.
  • We've already talked about this a little bit
  • but I want to explore it a little more.
  • At some point bar owners, like yourself,
  • realize that there's something we can do to help the cause.
  • That we can fund raise, we can help educate people
  • by keeping pamphlets in our bars or rolls of condoms
  • in our bars.
  • Just talk to me about coming to that realization
  • that OK, so this is not something
  • we have to be afraid of but it's actually something
  • we might be able to help with.
  • GARY SWEET: When Dr. Valenti started passing out pamphlets,
  • giving us something to read.
  • AIDS Rochester got involved wholeheartedly
  • with the men's outreach program.
  • They had a wagon that would stop and they were at my place
  • every Saturday night for people to
  • very discreetly go out and be tested in their wagon for AIDS.
  • This was very, very big for a long time
  • and then they started coming into the bars with condoms
  • and passing out pamphlets.
  • AIDS Rochester was just phenomenal as far as this goes.
  • They would come in.
  • They would have a group--
  • They would call first and say, well can we come in?
  • And have people that were more educated on it
  • that through, once again, Dr. Valenti.
  • Who educated these people and sent them out to the bars
  • to inform people about it.
  • So they would call first and say can we
  • come up and set the station up, and stuff like that.
  • And of course they were allowed in there.
  • And you know people could feel free to go over and talk
  • to them or discreetly and talk to them in private
  • if they wanted to.
  • And then they started coming out with free condoms for everybody
  • in the bars.
  • And now we have a huge bowl and AIDS Rochester still
  • supplies the condoms for the people
  • to take at their discretion.
  • And it really developed--
  • AIDS Rochester, with their men's outreach,
  • was the big turning point as far as getting people out
  • to the bars and educating the public, if they wanted to.
  • I mean, there was a lot more out there as far
  • as reading material and stuff.
  • But the outreach program I think was a big turning point
  • for the bars anyway because there were people visible,
  • wanting to help you, and willing to do something for you
  • without public knowledge.
  • It was very, very discreet.
  • So that was a big turning point.
  • And the condoms being in the bar all the time.
  • And there's always the fundraisers that come up.
  • And now there's a new one, I have a flyer up my bar
  • and I'm sorry, it's a AIDS vaccine
  • that they were asking people if they
  • want to take the test at or be part
  • of this research they're doing.
  • So there's always something that's
  • progressing as far as it goes.
  • Fortunately, the spread is not over but it's not as rapid
  • spreading as it was anymore.
  • And the drugs that we have today have the people
  • with HIV under control.
  • A very good friend of mine who has HIV,
  • he's had it from the beginning.
  • Still alive today and the virus is undetected because
  • of his medications.
  • It hasn't gone away, it's just it's undetected.
  • He's living a perfectly normal life.
  • And I'm so proud of it, I really am.
  • And it's all because of research and money
  • raised by people like us in Rochester
  • to support all of this.
  • Not only the movie stars.
  • It's people like us that have raised money also
  • for this research.
  • You don't have to be a movie star to raise money.
  • So Rochester has done a great amount of help
  • in this research for Rochester.
  • Because we have the facilities with the U of R and Strong.
  • And there's been a lot done here at Rochester
  • that's probably not known all over the world
  • but a lot has been done here at Rochester.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: As you were talking something
  • comes to mind.
  • You about the early days at Dick's and Martha
  • being very protective of her boys.
  • As a bar owner, whose been a bar owner for thirty-seven years
  • now, did you ever feel that same kind of responsibility?
  • Did you feel a responsibility to really kind of be a little bit
  • protective of the community?
  • You know, to be there to educate us about AIDS,
  • to be there to support us in our other endeavors?
  • Has it been more than just a bar business for you?
  • GARY SWEET: The Avenue Pub has become a home for me.
  • My customers are my friends.
  • They're not just customers.
  • They're part of my family.
  • I've always said that my customers make the Avenue Pub,
  • I just give them a place to go.
  • But in the beginning when I first opened up
  • and it was having a rough time I was
  • worried so much for my customers upon leaving the place,
  • upon coming into the place.
  • It was a great concern of mine.
  • Was I able to protect my customers?
  • I think I was able to because of the security.
  • I don't want to say security because I
  • had people inside that would take care of them
  • when they got inside.
  • That they weren't going to get hurt.
  • But it was always my fear when they left the bar
  • that they were going home OK.
  • I worried about them.
  • But it grew into a family atmosphere
  • where now everybody watches each other.
  • Monroe Avenue has come a long way
  • but there's still a lot of people out there that can
  • be crazy and stuff like that.
  • But we watch each other leaving the bar
  • and you know call me when you get home, when you're home safe
  • that type of thing.
  • So it's not just a bar it's a family atmosphere.
  • I call it the gay Cheers.
  • Everybody knows your name.
  • And it's always been known as the gay Cheers.
  • You know, you walked in there and it's not just a customer
  • but you're a family.
  • You know, a lot of people have their favorite stool
  • they want to sit on and that type of thing.
  • I am proud of what the Avenue Pub has become over the years
  • but it's not because of me.
  • It's because of the customers that
  • come in there and the employees that I have.
  • I have one of the greatest staffs that there is.
  • They don't leave.
  • And they all have their little niche in the bar business.
  • As far as their favorite customers and customers
  • have their favorite bartender come
  • in when somebody is working.
  • So it's more of a family atmosphere than anything else.
  • And I'm proud of it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch this very quickly about the Gay
  • Picnic.
  • Because you have been involved in that for many years.
  • Talk to me about your involvement and talk
  • to me about your fondest memories of those picnics.
  • GARY SWEET: Every year there's a big fundraiser
  • for the gay community and it's our annual picnic and parade.
  • But the first picnic ever was Martha Gruttadauria.
  • She was an icon in the gay community.
  • She had the first one at Genesee Valley Park
  • and she supplied everything herself.
  • And it started growing and after Martha got out of the business
  • and passed away.
  • AIDS-- the gay community, GAGV took it over.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: The Gay Alliance.
  • GARY SWEET: The Gay Alliance.
  • Yes, the Gay Alliance took it over
  • and started doing it as a fundraiser.
  • Martha's was just to get the gay community together,
  • it was no fundraiser.
  • I mean, but that was the first time I remember gay picnic.
  • And the Gay Alliance started doing it for fund raising.
  • And it has grown enormously with the talent, and the booths,
  • and the food.
  • And it's the biggest event in Rochester.
  • Gay pride week isn't that old.
  • It was the parade and the picnic was our gay weekend.
  • And then we developed into a gay pride week.
  • Which most of the United States, I
  • think all of the United States a gay pride week now.
  • Or city does, I should say that the city has a gay pride week.
  • And Rochester's ends with the gay picnic
  • and it's still in Genesee Valley Park.
  • Same spot I believe that was back then.
  • And we have huge booths and music.
  • And now, it's a family affair because we've
  • developed into a gay community who has their own children, who
  • has their own families.
  • And it's not just a bunch of gay people getting together
  • anymore.
  • It's a family activity.
  • They bring their children and they play in the park.
  • And it's a sight to behold, it's something to be proud of.
  • That we could hold a function like that
  • and raise money for different functions,
  • not only for AIDS but for different reasons.
  • So yeah, it's a great change but back in the early days
  • it was basically for fun.
  • But now--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch on that a little bit.
  • I want to learn a little bit more about the early days.
  • Those first couple years of the picnic.
  • You know describe to me what it was
  • like going there seeing all these all people who
  • were like you or the numbers of people.
  • GARY SWEET: When the Gay Alliance took over
  • it was a small picnic.
  • It wasn't as large as we have today.
  • Back then it was even still scary to go to the park
  • because you had onlookers staring at you
  • from the sidelines.
  • What are they get to do then?
  • But it was great to get out of the bar scene
  • and be able to see your friends in a relaxed atmosphere
  • in the sunshine enjoying it.
  • You know, playing baseball.
  • I mean, we would play baseball and play volleyball.
  • I mean, they didn't see gay people doing this,
  • you know, so they stand on the sideline
  • and these guys can throw baseball.
  • And we were not in the bar scene anymore.
  • Were out being ourselves, you know.
  • And if you just lay in a blanket, just lay in a blanket.
  • If you wanted to play baseball, you played baseball.
  • And that was the beginning, before the booths started
  • coming in and the entertainment started coming in.
  • It was just getting us all together,
  • letting our hair down, and having a good time.
  • And it was a lot of fun.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just going to throw a couple of names
  • at you and just get your quick impressions that these people,
  • who they were.
  • Obviously, the first one was Tony Green.
  • Who was he?
  • What was he like?
  • GARY SWEET: When Friar's opened up
  • on Monroe Avenue the owner of back then was Jesse Vulo.
  • And he had a crew that worked for him
  • that was like none other.
  • And one of them was Tony Green.
  • He was loud, boisterous, funny, sarcastic.
  • He would walk through the door and he
  • would scream out your name, where people just turn around
  • and look and see who is coming in the door.
  • When Jesse died Tony eventually took over Friar's.
  • Became very active in the gay community,
  • especially with the Dining for Dollars and HPA.
  • He was a huge advocate of the AIDS fundraisers.
  • He and Dan Meyers.
  • But once you met Tony Green there was nobody else like him.
  • He wouldn't let you forget him.
  • And if he wanted something from you, you were going to do it.
  • He had no qualms about asking for something
  • to help support the community and stuff like that.
  • And when he passed away it was sadly missed.
  • He was a great guy.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let's just add a little bit then and talk
  • a little bit about Jesse Vulo.
  • GARY SWEET: After I opened up the Avenue Pub,
  • Jesse Vulo opened up Friar's on Monroe Avenue.
  • He had owned two other bars in Rochester,
  • which were the Red Carpet and the Rathskeller
  • were owned by Jesse Vulo.
  • And after he saw that the Avenue Pub wasn't going away
  • after three years he decided to move on Monroe Avenue.
  • Which is now Woody's, Friar's.
  • And Jesse was just as outgoing as he can
  • be as far as a bar owner goes.
  • He lived his life to the fullest.
  • There was nobody that enjoyed life more than Jesse did.
  • His bar was a big play thing.
  • He really enjoyed it and had a great time
  • while he was with us.
  • And then Rosie's opened up across the street and things
  • starting escalating.
  • But Jesse below followed me on Monroe Avenue and opened
  • Friar's.
  • Which I'm glad he did because then we were
  • able to walk between two bars.
  • Which we never did before.
  • So there was a place where right up the street
  • was another gay bar.
  • You didn't have to drive to find one, it was right there.
  • And we had a great rapport, Jesse and I.
  • He was a great friend.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What about Arnie Pegish?
  • GARY SWEET: When we had the owner's meetings,
  • like I said the Bachelor Forum was owned by four
  • people in the beginning.
  • Shortly after they opened up two of them
  • decided they didn't want to be part of it anymore.
  • But the two that remain were Arnie Pegish and Walt Townsend.
  • And Arnie made his presence known without being visible
  • all the time.
  • He was more behind the scenes.
  • Walt was the active, outgoing partner for the Bachelor Forum
  • until Walt passed away and then Arnie became
  • the sole proprietor of it.
  • And he became very, very active in front and behind.
  • And even after our little group disband of bar owners
  • Arnie and I became very--
  • still remain very close friends.
  • Would rely on each other.
  • I could call Arnie for anything and vise versa.
  • And then he started getting a little sick, ill himself,
  • and he became more in the background.
  • So Arnie wasn't as visible but he was always available.
  • Arnie was 100 percent available from a phone call away.
  • If there was anything that I needed or the gay community
  • needed.
  • He was very, very much involved in the Gay Alliance.
  • I believe that they honored him with an award
  • if I'm not mistaken.
  • And with the AIDS foundations Arnie
  • was a great supporter and always called upon.
  • And he never said no to anything.
  • Never turned them down for a thing.
  • He was a special man.
  • And once again, another missed very good friend of mine
  • that I've lost along the way.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So over the course
  • of the last forty to fifty years we
  • went from having these bars that were
  • kind of secret little meeting places for gay men.
  • You know, a lot of harassment.
  • To a period later on where you have thirteen bars
  • that are all very well known.
  • And did various things.
  • Now we're down back to just a handful of places.
  • Where in today's society does a place like the Avenue Pub fit?
  • Has your place changed in regards to it's relationship
  • to the gay community?
  • I mean, obviously it's still a gay bar
  • but has your work changed?
  • Has your vision changed?
  • Where do you see your place at the table in today's society?
  • GARY SWEET: At one point in Rochester
  • we did have so many bars.
  • I think we all were thriving but time
  • started changing where people were really
  • relying more on the internet than going out to the bars.
  • Computers are a great thing but they
  • did change the bar scene a lot.
  • Actually, the Bachelor Forum--
  • As the bars started closing the Bachelor Forum was doing
  • a meet and date-- greet type thing over the computer
  • on Sundays.
  • Where people would go with their computers and then
  • they found out what we could do this at home.
  • We don't have to go to the bar to do this.
  • So there's been a big change in the way the bars operate-- not
  • operate but the way people come out to the bars now.
  • I think a lot of them come out to meet people that they've
  • already met online.
  • You're supposed to meet people in a public place.
  • So if they chat with someone online--
  • I have a lot of people I see come in and sit at the bar
  • and just keep looking for someone to walk
  • through the door.
  • That they obviously are waiting for a date, I'm assuming,
  • they probably met online.
  • And it has changed where people aren't--
  • they're not looking to pick up people
  • like they used to anymore.
  • There's a lot more relationships.
  • We're allow now to be in long term relationships.
  • It's no longer the odd thing to have a partner.
  • And now that we have our marriage.
  • Back then if you were with somebody,
  • it was unheard of for more than a week, anyway.
  • But today, long term relationships
  • seem to be the norm as far as staying healthy.
  • Stability.
  • People want more stability in their life.
  • They don't want to flit around like we did then.
  • They're more mature.
  • Now, I see more maturity, even in the younger people
  • today than back then.
  • It's not a seven night a week, let's go out
  • and pick up somebody.
  • It's not done anymore.
  • Let's go out and meet our friends.
  • And a lot of people, let's invite our friends over.
  • You know, so it has affected the bar business
  • but the gay bars are always going to be around.
  • There's always going to be a place for the new people
  • to come out and go to that don't know anybody else
  • and just coming out of the closet and just coming out.
  • And they are now because of the education that we have
  • and the support they have in the schools and other places.
  • Gay people are not afraid to come out.
  • But the gay bars, maybe not as many,
  • but they will always be around for a meeting place
  • and to hold a party.
  • I have people come in and say we met here twenty years ago
  • and that feels great.
  • You know we met over there by your jukebox.
  • I met my partner over there.
  • To celebrate their anniversary or whatever.
  • So that's what the bars have turned into,
  • more of let's call home where we met, you know,
  • this type of thing.
  • But the pub I think is going to be there for a while, I hope.
  • I hope a little bit longer.
  • People come in and reminisce now.
  • It's more of going back to their roots.
  • This is where we met.
  • This is where I met my best friend.
  • Or you know it doesn't have to be a lover.
  • My best friend and I met here this type of thing.
  • But it has changed a lot where we
  • don't need the volume of bars.
  • We just need the good established bars
  • where people feel safe.
  • And I think Rochester has that right now with what we have.
  • People feel safe.
  • They come home.
  • Let's go home.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Reflecting back on history, everything
  • you've done with the Avenue Pub, everything
  • you've done with the gay community,
  • picnics, AIDS awareness, fundraisers,
  • Dining for Dollars, whatever.
  • How do you want history to reflect about you?
  • What are you most proud of?
  • GARY SWEET: Outside of my family,
  • my three children, the Avenue Pub is my proudest achievement.
  • I never thought I'd still be there today.
  • It was a whim of opening up that bar.
  • I was going to be there for a few years
  • and I was going to move on.
  • The gay community encouraged me not to go anywhere,
  • to stay there.
  • Once again, my family being my most cherished thing.
  • The Avenue Pub is what I am most proud of.
  • I'm proud of the community for supporting me.
  • I'm proud of my employees.
  • And if anybody has to remember me for anything
  • just I think it would be remember me
  • for being a person that gave them a place to go.
  • I didn't do anything special.
  • There's no honors or awards.
  • I didn't do anything except for keeping
  • doors unlocked for people to come in and feel safe.
  • And that that's my greatest achievement really
  • is being able to sustain all that I have
  • and still have people be proud of where they're going.
  • Because the people that do come to the pub
  • are proud of it and respect it and I'm proud of that.
  • That's my biggest achievement.
  • Just remember me as the person that
  • gave me a place to be my lover.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright.
  • GARY SWEET: That's it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We'll wrap it up there.
  • GARY SWEET: Thank you.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
  • Get that microphone off, would you?
  • GARY SWEET: Oh, that's right.