Video Interview, Gary Sweet, November 1, 2012
- GARY SWEET: It's going to be read I mean it's not--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, yeah it just--
- GARY SWEET: It's not unfixable.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- It's not a lot.
- Just keep in mind that the audience
- is going to hear a little sound bite from you
- but you need to make sure they understand
- what you're talking about.
- GARY SWEET: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- First question is the easiest one.
- I need the correct spelling of your first and last name
- and how you want it to actually appear on screen.
- GARY SWEET: Gary.
- G-A-R-Y. S-W-E-E-T.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- And Gary, the first thing I want to talk about
- is the early days here in Rochester,
- what the gay scene was like in the sixties and seventies.
- What was it like for the life of a gay man here in Rochester?
- GARY SWEET: In my recollection.
- The beginning would be in 1965 when I first started coming out
- as a gay man in Rochester.
- When I got out of the service, I started
- going to the first gay bar which was Dick's 43 on Stone Street.
- And Martha Gruttadauria was the owner of that
- and she protected the gay community the best
- that she knew how.
- We were allowed in there, you were not
- allowed to dance unless she gave you an OK to dance.
- The cops, the police officers, were not as friendly
- as they are today.
- They were anti-gay, I'd have to say, back then.
- They did not like to see two men together.
- Drag Queens were a no-no.
- There weren't any drag bars per se,
- until close to 1970 when the Blue Chip opened up
- and then the female impersonators
- had to wear one piece of men's clothing.
- And they were frequently raided by the officers.
- And Martha had a son-in-law who was a detective
- and he was our best friend.
- And he would call her and tell her
- whether the police were going to arrive.
- She would blow a whistle and we'd
- have to stop dancing and sit down.
- And it was scary back then.
- Most of the activity was in the parks
- and cruising on the streets because there
- was no safe place for us to go except for Dick's 43.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me pull you back a little bit.
- Talk to me a little bit about what it was like walking
- into Dick's.
- You know, was there apprehension there?
- Were you afraid that somebody might see you walking
- into Dick's?
- What was the environment like when you got into Dick's?
- GARY SWEET: The first time that I
- went into a gay bar, which was Dick's 43,
- I had been driving around quite a while--
- I was new to the scene--
- until somebody came out and said, "Hey you
- going to drive around or are you going to come in?"
- And it scared me going in there.
- Not knowing what I was going to find, who I was going to find,
- and how I was going to be treated when I walked in there.
- And there were a couple of times when people came in
- that I knew that were not gay and I
- would hide in the men's room or in the ladies room.
- And my friends would let me know when they were gone.
- It was totally closeted back then.
- There was no well, maybe I can come out or I can't.
- It was totally closeted in there and you
- would stare at people walking through the door.
- Is he here to harass us or is he gay?
- And everybody was scrutinized walking through the door.
- Once you were inside and you became known inside you
- were a family, you were protected,
- you were treated well.
- But the first time you walked into a gay bar
- you had to really, really want to be in there because you were
- scrutinized and you were watched to make sure
- that you belonged in there and not somewhere else.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Brings up an interesting question
- is, in that day how was a place like Dick's even
- allowed to exist?
- GARY SWEET: Dick's 43 was the gay bar in that era
- basically because Martha Gruttadauria had the gumption
- to realize that there was a need for a place for gay men to go.
- Not women, women were not allowed in there.
- And the gay men were her sons.
- She had a need for wanting people around her
- and she enjoyed it.
- And also, because she had a detective son-in-law
- which really helped her establish a gay bar.
- Those that tried to open up--
- there were a few, I really can't remember the names of them
- that tried to open up--
- and she didn't allow them to be around.
- I mean, she had the market on the gay bar.
- I mentioned the Blue Chip.
- They did try drag shows there.
- It was not a gay bar, only on weekends and at nighttime.
- During the day it was a local bar
- and the owners wanted to get their foot into the market.
- And one of the drag queens, Jackie was her name,
- got some other people together, decided to put on a show.
- And once Martha Gruttadauria got wind of it
- the place was raided.
- And the drag queens were hauled off to jail,
- we were thrown out.
- The gay men were not arrested.
- The drag queens were all arrested.
- And it was scary but we laughed and we enjoyed it.
- We went back for more.
- I mean, this is, you know--
- We defied them to stop us or they defied them to stop them.
- The drag queens were feisty back then.
- They really were.
- And as long as they had one piece of men's clothing
- on they were not thrown in to the general public,
- they were kept separate.
- But it was mostly the female impersonators
- or the drag queens that were scrutinized back then.
- And the gay men stuck together.
- And we knew where we were allowed
- and where we weren't allowed.
- And we didn't venture where we weren't allowed.
- And when the females started coming out
- to their bars, which would be the 212 and the Riverview,
- the men were not allowed in.
- So back then it was definitely a split.
- You were either a lesbian or a gay woman or a gay guy
- and we did not mix well.
- We were not allowed in the women's bar
- unless we were escorted by a woman.
- Otherwise, you didn't go in there.
- The lesbians, or female gays, back then was one gender.
- They were all butch.
- There was no fem lesbian and butch lesbian.
- They were all butch.
- They were defying society.
- Saying, you know, this is what we're going to be.
- Today it's so much better than it was back then.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to follow up with that.
- I want to know when did you get a sense of gay men and lesbians
- coming together and why?
- GARY SWEET: Gay men and gay women
- didn't start to gel together or socialize together
- until probably after the AIDS epidemic came into play.
- That I think everybody realized at that point
- that we were all in this together.
- It was definitely a gay man's disease
- but the lesbian community decided that we're all gay too.
- And they started venturing into the men's bars
- and then the men were allowed into the women's bars.
- And it started to come together as a family,
- instead of gay men and gay women.
- And I think the AIDS epidemic is when it started.
- When I started seeing lesbians coming into the Avenue Pub.
- And Rosie's opened up, which was supposed
- to have been a female bar and it was a mixed bar.
- And Friar's allowed women in there.
- It wasn't one special occasion, it just
- started to just slowly trangressed
- into a gay community and not a separate community.
- There wasn't two separate entities.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just tell me for reference,
- where was the Blue Chip?
- Do you remember?
- GARY SWEET: The Blue Chip was over Glide Street.
- Child street, Glide Street in that area.
- I can't remember now exactly on Glide Street or Child Street.
- It was Child, the name, or Glide Street.
- It was in that area over there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk about the drag
- queens just a little but more.
- Back then were they known as drag queens
- or were they known more as female impersonators?
- GARY SWEET: The Blue Chip--
- when the female impersonators first came out to the Blue Chip
- they were drag queens.
- The term female impersonator didn't, I think, come into play
- until later on when they started doing more big production
- numbers and impersonating a star.
- I think that's where the female impersonator first came out.
- Because back on the drag queens would
- take on the persona of Liza Minnelli or Judy Garland.
- And they were known by that name.
- I mean, if they were doing Liza Minnelli they were known
- as Liza, not by their male.
- Or they were known as Judy Garland,
- they were known as Judy or Shirley Bassey.
- This is what they were known as, the female impersonator.
- Before that, when I first started going out,
- was drag queens and that's what they were, drag queens.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, jumping back a little bit here.
- You skipped over (unintelligible).
- When you were here in Rochester--
- do you remember hearing about the Stonewall when it happened
- in New York?
- Do you remember what all about what Rochester's reaction to it
- was?
- GARY SWEET: The big turning of events of Stonewall in New York
- City didn't really affect Rochester except for the fact
- that we were so proud of what was going on there.
- And that people had the gumption to stand up
- to the police who really harassed them in New York City.
- It brought our community stronger
- to realize that if they can do it, why can't we do it?
- But I didn't see any actual events
- here except for the applause that we gave everybody
- in there.
- Then San Francisco got into it and it just started escalating.
- But as far as Rochester, we were such a conservative city.
- Because of the growth of Kodak and Xerox
- and Bausch & Lomb that the people here at Rochester
- were still afraid to stand up outside or inside
- their workplace and acknowledge the fact that they were gay.
- So it was still not as closeted but because
- of our conservative city it was still closeted.
- We all were happy that something was happening, that somebody
- was doing something for us.
- And that it was going to come back to Rochester eventually
- and we were going to feel it.
- But it was great to read about and watch and see
- that these people had the gumption to stand up.
- Because New York City of San Francisco
- are so open because of the theatrics
- there and San Francisco is the melting pot for gay people
- back then.
- Fortunately, now we can go anywhere we want to go
- and we're welcome anywhere we go and they started that.
- But it was a ripple effect for Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So in time you left Dick's, and you
- started your own business with the Avenue Pub.
- You took over the Avenue Pub.
- Talk to me about those first few days.
- And more importantly, I want to kind of get
- a feel what was going on inside your head of what
- it is you were--
- what it is you trying to do?
- Not only just in operating a bar.
- But what it is you think you were providing
- for the gay community?
- Talk to me about those early days and the kind
- of thinking behind it?
- GARY SWEET: In 1975, I was managing bars
- for a family in Rochester that owned thirteen bars.
- And I was basically I guess you would call a general manager
- of seven of them.
- And at that time they had the bar that is now the Avenue Pub,
- it was called Neil's Cocktail Lounge, that was in trouble
- and they wanted somebody to buy it from them
- or buy it as their partner.
- And they offered this to me.
- I was married.
- I had small children.
- It was a big venture for me to do this.
- And I agreed to it and took it over.
- As I said, it was Neil's Cocktail Lounge back then
- and they got closed down for violations.
- I received my liquor license.
- I did some remodeling.
- Not intended ever to have a gay bar
- because of my marital status and my children.
- I just wanted to be in the bar business, I enjoyed it.
- I had been doing this since I was eighteen.
- When I was in the service I was tending bar.
- No matter what I did before the Avenue Pub
- I always had my hands in the bar business as tending bar
- somewhere part-time or whatever.
- And word got out that Gary Sweet had
- bought a bar and my gay friends heard about it.
- And I didn't encourage anything.
- It wasn't a sign saying gay bar.
- I would never do that, once again,
- because of my marital status.
- But once they found out about it and I
- opened my doors that's all that I seemed to be getting
- were the gay people.
- My friends coming in to wish me luck.
- But Monroe Avenue was not going to have that.
- It was unheard of for a gay bar on Monroe Avenue.
- Even the other gay bar owners at that time
- told me that I would never last because of the area
- I was going into.
- These were all 8:00 a.m.
- bars, fifteen cent drafts.
- And when I bought this place it was an Indian biker bar
- and they were having nothing of me being inside that place.
- They harassed me.
- I was sent to the hospital twice where they beat me up.
- Came in and blocked the doors, put up their flag,
- wouldn't let anybody leave, and said that you
- know I had to be out of there.
- Luckily, I had a cousin who was on the police force.
- And back then, in those times, we had the paddy wagon.
- And he was on assignment on the Goodman, Monroe Avenue
- and would stop in every single day to make sure I was OK.
- And notify these people that if they harmed me one more time
- that they were going to be in jail.
- My father would come in and sit at the head of the bar
- protect me.
- I had a bouncer with a German Shepherd that was in there.
- It took three years at least before I was established
- as a gay bar and left alone.
- They would throw open the front door,
- throw eggs and rocks in there.
- And today the Avenue Pub the front door is for exit only.
- Being on the sidewalk, I still have a little fear
- of homophobic people walking by and I
- don't want my customers hurt.
- So the front door is exit only.
- And we have our own little side door that we come in.
- But from 1975, when I first opened up, to 1977-78
- it was scary.
- They were not going to allow this.
- And then Friar's opened up that Monroe Avenue, Rosie's opened
- up on Monroe Avenue, and the gay community was
- accepted that Monroe Avenue.
- They started leaving us alone knowing that we
- weren't going to go away.
- So the first couple of years were really scary.
- But I had no intention to have a gay bar.
- That was not my intention.
- My gay friends said I was going to have a gay bar.
- They forced it upon me and I'm glad they did.
- I've been there thirty-seven years
- and I love every minute of it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: At some point you became more than just a bar
- for the gay community.
- You became actively involved in number of different causes.
- Particularly during the AIDS crisis, the gay picnics,
- and all that.
- Talk to me about the importance for you
- being actively supportive of the gay community
- other than just serving drinks.
- GARY SWEET: After I became established as a gay bar
- and was recognized for having a gay bar
- I started getting involved in different causes in Rochester.
- The organizations would come and ask, "Gary, can we
- hold a fundraiser here?"
- Or "Will you partake in a fundraiser?"
- And no matter what I was asked I never said no.
- There was always a need for money to be raised.
- And when the AIDS epidemic started there were fundraisers.
- There was HPA that was held.
- They asked me to partake in that.
- And everything was a cause.
- And I feel very proud that over the years
- I have accumulated thirty-seven awards that they honored me
- with for being part of this.
- And I feel honored that they asked me to be part of this.
- That somebody had to take a stand
- and help with these organizations.
- Because everything was new to everybody.
- There was no precedent for any of this.
- When they started the HPA and the Dining
- for Dollars and nobody had done this before.
- So it was all--
- we were all taking the chance and the gay community
- sticks together here at Rochester.
- Very close knit family.
- Everybody helps each other.
- If there's a need or a cause we're going to help each other.
- And it wasn't just me, the other bars got involved in on it.
- But it was a joy, it was a pleasure
- to be part of all of that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's pick it up with HPA.
- Talk to me about the first time that Dan Meyers came to you
- and asked you to help with the first Dining for Dollars event.
- GARY SWEET: The biggest event that was held back then was HPA
- or what they was known as Dining For Dollars.
- And a good friend of mine Dan Meyers,
- who was better known as Nana, came to me and with this idea
- that they were going to have a fundraiser.
- That they were going to have people
- hold dinners in their homes and then have dessert and drinks
- at a central location where everybody
- could come afterwards.
- And people having dinners would raise money at their dinners
- and everybody join in.
- So they selected the place that were they
- were going to have it, which was the Village Gate.
- Never been done before.
- And Dan said, "Would you do the bars for us and set it up?"
- And of course it was just an empty room.
- So we had a supply bring everything, the bars,
- the liquor, the set up, everything.
- And he said, "We'll get about fifty to one hundred people,
- maybe one hundred and fifty people."
- So I said, "OK, that sounds good."
- And at the time I had a partner who
- was involved in this with me also
- and we went and set this whole place up.
- Well, lo and behold, within the first hour
- and a half there were over three hundred people in there.
- The place just filled up.
- It was wonderful.
- Ran out of stuff.
- We were running around trying to get things.
- That was the first one and then people
- realized that this was going to get bigger.
- So Dan and--
- OK my mind just went blank.
- Excuse me.
- The one from Midtown.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Not Jesse?
- GARY SWEET: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No?
- Neil?
- GARY SWEET: Neil Parisella.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So take that.
- GARY SWEET: After the first one Dan
- decided this is going to be a little bigger so we
- needed a bigger venue for this.
- And there was a wonderful, wonderful window decorator
- in charge of Midtown Plaza, Neil Parisella,
- who was a good friend of Dan's.
- And Dan went to him and they collaborated.
- And Neil was able to give us Midtown Plaza.
- For viewers who don't remember Midtown Plaza it was huge,
- it was gorgeous.
- But we couldn't get in there until six o'clock
- at night when all the stores were closed.
- Well, Neil would turn this place into a wonderland
- in decorated it.
- And it was the upper balcony of the place and the lower.
- And as time grew, we went from one bar being set up,
- we had four bars set up.
- And it went from three hundred people
- to thirteen hundred people.
- Rochester came out in full force in support of this epidemic,
- this AIDS epidemic.
- Thousands of dollars were supposed to have been raised.
- Hundreds of thousands of dollars were end up being raised.
- When finally the HPA Dining for Dollars started dwindling.
- Today they do the restaurant Dining for Dollars type
- of thing.
- The restaurants that will hold a function and you pick
- your restaurant you want to go to and pay
- so much money and the money goes towards AIDS.
- But back then it was a huge party for the gay community
- to get together and raise money for a worthy cause.
- But it all started with Dan Meyers and Tony Green.
- And from one bar of fifty to one hundred
- people it turned into thousands of people at Midtown
- and from there it went-- after Neil Parisella passed away, it
- went to the convention center.
- Which was a little bit too large for us, the venue.
- People felt that they were spread out too much.
- You didn't have the closeness anymore
- that you did in Midtown.
- And it just started dwindling after a while.
- But the highlight of it was the Midtown.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm going to jump back a little bit.
- I'm going to kind of jump all over the place here.
- I just realized I forgot one thing.
- In regards to the Police harassment
- at the gay bars and police harassment--
- arresting men in the parks and all that.
- At some point Gordon Urlacher came into the picture.
- and I just kind of want to get your thoughts
- about having a police liaison for the gay community.
- And more importantly, what was Gordon Urlacher like?
- Why do you think it was such a significant aspect
- to have someone like Gordon in that position?
- GARY SWEET: The time in Rochester
- where men were using in the parks and--
- basically, the parks is a pickup place outside of the bars
- because there weren't that many bars
- and we were still being harassed by the police.
- The police start arresting people and the gay community
- came together.
- And decided that we needed some protection.
- And they formed the gay liaison with the police department.
- And our first officer that was assigned to us,
- who we were able to call if we were being harassed unduly
- or if something happened to us, was Gordon Urlacher, a big guy.
- Very big guy.
- And I think at the beginning he was a little skeptical of what
- he was being assigned to do but he turned out
- to be our best friend.
- Gordon would come into the bars and check on us.
- We all had his phone number.
- All the owners had Gordon's personal phone number.
- We could reach him twenty-four hours a day.
- And he would be by our side any time there was any harassment.
- He was our liaison between the chief of police, the officers,
- and sometimes the courts.
- If we needed him to be there he was there.
- He was the first one and there were many to come after.
- But he sticks out with us more than anything else
- because being the first one and also he was the most visible.
- I mean, we still have today but because we don't have
- the need that we had back then.
- Our liaison is there for us if there is a need.
- Fortunately we don't have the need.
- But back then we kept Gordon jumping a lot.
- He was he was a busy man.
- But he made his rounds of everyone of the bars
- that were around.
- And saw to it every weekend he would make an appearance
- to help us out.
- And at one point we had up to thirteen bars of Rochester.
- So he was a busy man and he was a good friend.
- He was a very good friend.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And did you really see
- that as a kind of turning point in
- regards to the relationship of the gay community
- and the community at large, particularly law enforcement
- community?
- GARY SWEET: Gordon Urlacher's presence and support
- of the gay community gave him an opportunity
- to talk to the other officers that he knew,
- and he knew a lot of them, to explain to them that there was
- no fear of the gay community.
- There's no need to be as crass as you are with them.
- And some of them were very crass.
- I mean, we were not welcome.
- I mean, we were outcasts.
- But Gordon opened their eyes to the fact
- that these are working men, teachers, some of them
- are lawyers, some of them doctors.
- There's no need for you to treat them
- the way they're being treated.
- And the police officers started backing off.
- My relationship with the police today and even back
- then is wonderful.
- They want you to respect them and they'll respect you.
- And they want you to feel free to call them,
- especially today, if you have a problem they'll
- be right there for you.
- But Gordon Urlacher is the one that originally made them aware
- of the fact that hey, you can't treat these people the way
- you're treated them.
- I don't like to use the word these people
- but back then that's what we were, "these people,"
- "those people."
- We weren't brothers and sisters.
- It was well, look at those people over there.
- And he changed a lot of that.
- I mean, the police officers now they march in our gay parades.
- You know, they're wonderful but for Rochester he
- was the turning point for us with the police department.
- He even opened the police chief's eyes to us.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, I'm jumping around
- here a little bit.
- I want to get back to the Avenue Pub.
- Aside from the, you know, the Blue Chip
- you were one of the first who started hosting drag shows
- at your own establishment.
- Talk to me about that.
- Talk to me about having those drag shows.
- It was in the back building or something, right?
- GARY SWEET: The Avenue Pub like I
- said was basically a men's bar.
- Women would come in occasionally because I had female bartenders
- there.
- And then there was a young man that came to me
- and said, "We want to do a drag show."
- And I said, "I have no room.
- There's no way you could do a drag show."
- "We need someplace to do a drag show."
- And a very young guy, his name is Wayne and known
- as Liza Minnelli.
- And he pressured me and pressured me
- and finally I said, "If you get some people together fine,
- we'll find a way have a drag show."
- And he was the Avenue's Pub first Miss Avenue Pub was Liza.
- And he's proud of that title today, he really is.
- I think he was probably eighteen.
- And then some other drag queens started wanting to do shows.
- And finally, I had a person that worked
- for me who was very well known in the gay community.
- He had his own bar for a while actually, it was Roy Lawrence.
- And he was running the kitchen for a while doing dinners
- and after hour breakfast.
- And he was known in Rochester as Miss--
- I don't think I'm going to pronounce it right--
- Uru?
- Uruhu?
- And he decided he wanted to do a huge drag show that has never
- been seen before.
- And behind the Avenue Pub there was this large garage,
- warehouse type thing that sat vacant.
- And he said, "Why can't we do a drag show in there?"
- I said, "Roy, it's not--" He said, "I'll take care of it."
- Well, he put up a stage and runway
- and we had drag shows behind the Avenue Pub.
- Huge drag shows.
- And that was one of the first, I believe,
- Miss Gay Rochester was elected was back in that building.
- And of course I had to have permits for that
- because it wasn't part of the Avenue Pub per se.
- But they were good times.
- I mean, they were a lot of fun.
- The Avenue pub was a drag bar at one point.
- I've probably been about everything there
- is to be in thirty-seven years.
- But the first drag queen we had was Liza.
- And that started that as everything else the fad changes
- and the larger drag bars opened up, Jim's.
- And the Avenue Pub wasn't equipped to do those anymore.
- But it gave them a place to start and they enjoyed it.
- It gave them a place for them to dress up and do their numbers.
- And it was fun then.
- I'm glad there are drag places now or places for drag shows,
- such as Tilt I believe is today.
- Back then it was 40 Union or Muthers it was for drag.
- Everybody needs a place to go so.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch a little bit on the camaraderie
- that a lot of you bar owners had among each other.
- That you support each other.
- You know, you each had your own little night
- and you all respected that.
- Talk to me about that camaraderie.
- Talk to me about how important it
- was in keeping this sense of community
- for the gay community.
- GARY SWEET: As the gay community became more accepted,
- and once again Gordon Urlacher that
- started opening doors for us with the police department,
- bars started opening up.
- There was Friar's and Rosie's.
- Before that there were other bars,
- but as it started getting bigger when they opened up
- other bars started opening up and the Forum--
- well the Forum was opened before me.
- It was four gentlemen that owned.
- That's why they're Bachelor Forum.
- Four men opened it up was over on Goodman street and Main.
- They're now on Atlantic.
- And it was Friar's and Rosie's and myself.
- And we decided that we had to do something
- to band together and not hurt each other.
- Because, you know, there was enough.
- So we formed the Bar Owner's Association.
- And once a month we would meet at each other's houses.
- It was a different home every month
- and establish our agenda for the month.
- And if the Forum was planning a function
- we all supported that function.
- If Friar's was having a function or a fundraiser
- or whatever it might be we all were behind it.
- We 100 percent did not step on each other's toes
- and it was great back then.
- It was just wonderful.
- We knew what the other bars were planning
- and we knew when they were going to hold it.
- We didn't try to compete with them.
- When we were having ours they didn't try to compete with us.
- When I had Christmas in July--
- I think I had the first Christmas in July ever,
- I actually dressed up a Santa Claus--
- they all came out and supported it.
- I mean, the owners would come to each other's functions.
- And slowly when bars closed or when
- people change that's dwindled.
- Today I don't say we step on each other's toes,
- we don't do that, but we're not 100 percent supportive
- of each other.
- And sorry it fell apart because it
- was a great help for all of us to be able to plan together.
- You know, and we would give each other ideas.
- You know, well I'm too small to do this but hey, you can do it.
- You know, why don't you do this.
- A lot of it was for fund raising and a lot of it
- was just for fun.
- But we all hung each other's posters up
- and helped each other.
- And it was great back then.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And unique.
- I hate to say this but I can't imagine
- any of the straight bars doing that with each other.
- GARY SWEET: The gay bars, we had to stick together because we
- are a small community.
- And to make all of the gay people
- feel comfortable back then we tried
- to do something that was different from any place else.
- We tried to get them to know that all the bars got along
- and we were all the same.
- Differential from what type of crowd you had
- or what size you were.
- To make them know that they--
- we were all in this together.
- And it was a great experience at that time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move on a little bit to--
- now, let's talk about AIDS.
- You were a bar owner when AIDS hit Rochester.
- Talk to me about those first days,
- those first couple of years of when we started hearing
- about AIDS in Rochester.
- And what you were seeing happening in the bars,
- in particularly your own bar.
- And you had some fears yourself there
- that you had to come to terms with.
- GARY SWEET: The biggest change in the gay community
- was when the AIDS epidemic first became well-known outside
- of New York or San Francisco.
- Rochester heard about this disease
- that gay men were getting in San Francisco and New York
- but it hadn't hit Rochester.
- And the first few cases, or ten to fifteen cases
- that were known.
- It was a very well-kept secret.
- People didn't go around saying I have AIDS.
- Even today it's still a kept secret
- even though we are much more informed
- and the drugs are there are phenomenal today.
- Thanks to people like Dr. Valenti.
- But back then when we first heard about it
- and I'm sorry to say that if someone came in to the pub--
- and I don't think only my bar but other bars
- also but I'm speaking for myself--
- that people came in there that were known or looked
- as if they had AIDS because back then it
- progressed very rapidly because we didn't have the drugs.
- It wasn't slow.
- It was rapid.
- You knew from weight loss, gauntness,
- lesions on their face, whatever it might be.
- You'd just, "He has AIDS" you just whispered.
- And customers would shy away from them.
- And even if they were known people, I mean,
- if I knew them a year before that or six months
- before that when they would come in
- and the suspected, suspected of having AIDS,
- people shunned away from them.
- There were times when they'd serve them a drink
- and people would say, "You're not going
- to keep that glass are you?
- You can't wash that and serve it to somebody else, you know."
- After the customer left.
- They were never told they couldn't come in.
- But they were-- like when gay people first
- came out you were ostracized.
- I mean, it was that type of feeling
- that you weren't welcome.
- They felt it too.
- Which I'm embarrassed to say that I ever,
- ever partook in that but we were scared.
- Nobody knew anything.
- There was no information, there were no pamphlets for us
- to read, there was nothing.
- We only heard about it through the news,
- from New York City, and San Francisco.
- And when it started hitting you Rochester it was--
- So yes, I did not keep the glass and I'm ashamed to say it.
- It took probably a good eight months to a year
- before we started having any knowledge, any written
- information, any--
- on how to stop-- not stop AIDS-- but how we can prevent
- ourselves from getting AIDS.
- And once again Dr. Valenti was a big part of that.
- Stepping up and making issues aware to the public
- here in Rochester and informing us
- that this was not going away.
- And it wasn't something to be ashamed of but you
- have to do something to prevent it, the spread of it.
- And he started having the pamphlets and the information
- to the gay bars.
- I mean, because that's where it was from.
- And it was very, very scary in the beginning
- and then we started doing the fundraisers.
- Once again, like I said the HPA stuff and people were more
- acceptable and knew that our brothers and sisters were
- getting sick.
- That they didn't have to get sick.
- And we knew now how to prevent it.
- We weren't going to stop it, but we
- knew how to prevent it amongst ourselves.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Kind of following along with that.
- We've already talked about this a little bit
- but I want to explore it a little more.
- At some point bar owners, like yourself,
- realize that there's something we can do to help the cause.
- That we can fund raise, we can help educate people
- by keeping pamphlets in our bars or rolls of condoms
- in our bars.
- Just talk to me about coming to that realization
- that OK, so this is not something
- we have to be afraid of but it's actually something
- we might be able to help with.
- GARY SWEET: When Dr. Valenti started passing out pamphlets,
- giving us something to read.
- AIDS Rochester got involved wholeheartedly
- with the men's outreach program.
- They had a wagon that would stop and they were at my place
- every Saturday night for people to
- very discreetly go out and be tested in their wagon for AIDS.
- This was very, very big for a long time
- and then they started coming into the bars with condoms
- and passing out pamphlets.
- AIDS Rochester was just phenomenal as far as this goes.
- They would come in.
- They would have a group--
- They would call first and say, well can we come in?
- And have people that were more educated on it
- that through, once again, Dr. Valenti.
- Who educated these people and sent them out to the bars
- to inform people about it.
- So they would call first and say can we
- come up and set the station up, and stuff like that.
- And of course they were allowed in there.
- And you know people could feel free to go over and talk
- to them or discreetly and talk to them in private
- if they wanted to.
- And then they started coming out with free condoms for everybody
- in the bars.
- And now we have a huge bowl and AIDS Rochester still
- supplies the condoms for the people
- to take at their discretion.
- And it really developed--
- AIDS Rochester, with their men's outreach,
- was the big turning point as far as getting people out
- to the bars and educating the public, if they wanted to.
- I mean, there was a lot more out there as far
- as reading material and stuff.
- But the outreach program I think was a big turning point
- for the bars anyway because there were people visible,
- wanting to help you, and willing to do something for you
- without public knowledge.
- It was very, very discreet.
- So that was a big turning point.
- And the condoms being in the bar all the time.
- And there's always the fundraisers that come up.
- And now there's a new one, I have a flyer up my bar
- and I'm sorry, it's a AIDS vaccine
- that they were asking people if they
- want to take the test at or be part
- of this research they're doing.
- So there's always something that's
- progressing as far as it goes.
- Fortunately, the spread is not over but it's not as rapid
- spreading as it was anymore.
- And the drugs that we have today have the people
- with HIV under control.
- A very good friend of mine who has HIV,
- he's had it from the beginning.
- Still alive today and the virus is undetected because
- of his medications.
- It hasn't gone away, it's just it's undetected.
- He's living a perfectly normal life.
- And I'm so proud of it, I really am.
- And it's all because of research and money
- raised by people like us in Rochester
- to support all of this.
- Not only the movie stars.
- It's people like us that have raised money also
- for this research.
- You don't have to be a movie star to raise money.
- So Rochester has done a great amount of help
- in this research for Rochester.
- Because we have the facilities with the U of R and Strong.
- And there's been a lot done here at Rochester
- that's probably not known all over the world
- but a lot has been done here at Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: As you were talking something
- comes to mind.
- You about the early days at Dick's and Martha
- being very protective of her boys.
- As a bar owner, whose been a bar owner for thirty-seven years
- now, did you ever feel that same kind of responsibility?
- Did you feel a responsibility to really kind of be a little bit
- protective of the community?
- You know, to be there to educate us about AIDS,
- to be there to support us in our other endeavors?
- Has it been more than just a bar business for you?
- GARY SWEET: The Avenue Pub has become a home for me.
- My customers are my friends.
- They're not just customers.
- They're part of my family.
- I've always said that my customers make the Avenue Pub,
- I just give them a place to go.
- But in the beginning when I first opened up
- and it was having a rough time I was
- worried so much for my customers upon leaving the place,
- upon coming into the place.
- It was a great concern of mine.
- Was I able to protect my customers?
- I think I was able to because of the security.
- I don't want to say security because I
- had people inside that would take care of them
- when they got inside.
- That they weren't going to get hurt.
- But it was always my fear when they left the bar
- that they were going home OK.
- I worried about them.
- But it grew into a family atmosphere
- where now everybody watches each other.
- Monroe Avenue has come a long way
- but there's still a lot of people out there that can
- be crazy and stuff like that.
- But we watch each other leaving the bar
- and you know call me when you get home, when you're home safe
- that type of thing.
- So it's not just a bar it's a family atmosphere.
- I call it the gay Cheers.
- Everybody knows your name.
- And it's always been known as the gay Cheers.
- You know, you walked in there and it's not just a customer
- but you're a family.
- You know, a lot of people have their favorite stool
- they want to sit on and that type of thing.
- I am proud of what the Avenue Pub has become over the years
- but it's not because of me.
- It's because of the customers that
- come in there and the employees that I have.
- I have one of the greatest staffs that there is.
- They don't leave.
- And they all have their little niche in the bar business.
- As far as their favorite customers and customers
- have their favorite bartender come
- in when somebody is working.
- So it's more of a family atmosphere than anything else.
- And I'm proud of it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch this very quickly about the Gay
- Picnic.
- Because you have been involved in that for many years.
- Talk to me about your involvement and talk
- to me about your fondest memories of those picnics.
- GARY SWEET: Every year there's a big fundraiser
- for the gay community and it's our annual picnic and parade.
- But the first picnic ever was Martha Gruttadauria.
- She was an icon in the gay community.
- She had the first one at Genesee Valley Park
- and she supplied everything herself.
- And it started growing and after Martha got out of the business
- and passed away.
- AIDS-- the gay community, GAGV took it over.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The Gay Alliance.
- GARY SWEET: The Gay Alliance.
- Yes, the Gay Alliance took it over
- and started doing it as a fundraiser.
- Martha's was just to get the gay community together,
- it was no fundraiser.
- I mean, but that was the first time I remember gay picnic.
- And the Gay Alliance started doing it for fund raising.
- And it has grown enormously with the talent, and the booths,
- and the food.
- And it's the biggest event in Rochester.
- Gay pride week isn't that old.
- It was the parade and the picnic was our gay weekend.
- And then we developed into a gay pride week.
- Which most of the United States, I
- think all of the United States a gay pride week now.
- Or city does, I should say that the city has a gay pride week.
- And Rochester's ends with the gay picnic
- and it's still in Genesee Valley Park.
- Same spot I believe that was back then.
- And we have huge booths and music.
- And now, it's a family affair because we've
- developed into a gay community who has their own children, who
- has their own families.
- And it's not just a bunch of gay people getting together
- anymore.
- It's a family activity.
- They bring their children and they play in the park.
- And it's a sight to behold, it's something to be proud of.
- That we could hold a function like that
- and raise money for different functions,
- not only for AIDS but for different reasons.
- So yeah, it's a great change but back in the early days
- it was basically for fun.
- But now--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch on that a little bit.
- I want to learn a little bit more about the early days.
- Those first couple years of the picnic.
- You know describe to me what it was
- like going there seeing all these all people who
- were like you or the numbers of people.
- GARY SWEET: When the Gay Alliance took over
- it was a small picnic.
- It wasn't as large as we have today.
- Back then it was even still scary to go to the park
- because you had onlookers staring at you
- from the sidelines.
- What are they get to do then?
- But it was great to get out of the bar scene
- and be able to see your friends in a relaxed atmosphere
- in the sunshine enjoying it.
- You know, playing baseball.
- I mean, we would play baseball and play volleyball.
- I mean, they didn't see gay people doing this,
- you know, so they stand on the sideline
- and these guys can throw baseball.
- And we were not in the bar scene anymore.
- Were out being ourselves, you know.
- And if you just lay in a blanket, just lay in a blanket.
- If you wanted to play baseball, you played baseball.
- And that was the beginning, before the booths started
- coming in and the entertainment started coming in.
- It was just getting us all together,
- letting our hair down, and having a good time.
- And it was a lot of fun.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just going to throw a couple of names
- at you and just get your quick impressions that these people,
- who they were.
- Obviously, the first one was Tony Green.
- Who was he?
- What was he like?
- GARY SWEET: When Friar's opened up
- on Monroe Avenue the owner of back then was Jesse Vulo.
- And he had a crew that worked for him
- that was like none other.
- And one of them was Tony Green.
- He was loud, boisterous, funny, sarcastic.
- He would walk through the door and he
- would scream out your name, where people just turn around
- and look and see who is coming in the door.
- When Jesse died Tony eventually took over Friar's.
- Became very active in the gay community,
- especially with the Dining for Dollars and HPA.
- He was a huge advocate of the AIDS fundraisers.
- He and Dan Meyers.
- But once you met Tony Green there was nobody else like him.
- He wouldn't let you forget him.
- And if he wanted something from you, you were going to do it.
- He had no qualms about asking for something
- to help support the community and stuff like that.
- And when he passed away it was sadly missed.
- He was a great guy.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let's just add a little bit then and talk
- a little bit about Jesse Vulo.
- GARY SWEET: After I opened up the Avenue Pub,
- Jesse Vulo opened up Friar's on Monroe Avenue.
- He had owned two other bars in Rochester,
- which were the Red Carpet and the Rathskeller
- were owned by Jesse Vulo.
- And after he saw that the Avenue Pub wasn't going away
- after three years he decided to move on Monroe Avenue.
- Which is now Woody's, Friar's.
- And Jesse was just as outgoing as he can
- be as far as a bar owner goes.
- He lived his life to the fullest.
- There was nobody that enjoyed life more than Jesse did.
- His bar was a big play thing.
- He really enjoyed it and had a great time
- while he was with us.
- And then Rosie's opened up across the street and things
- starting escalating.
- But Jesse below followed me on Monroe Avenue and opened
- Friar's.
- Which I'm glad he did because then we were
- able to walk between two bars.
- Which we never did before.
- So there was a place where right up the street
- was another gay bar.
- You didn't have to drive to find one, it was right there.
- And we had a great rapport, Jesse and I.
- He was a great friend.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What about Arnie Pegish?
- GARY SWEET: When we had the owner's meetings,
- like I said the Bachelor Forum was owned by four
- people in the beginning.
- Shortly after they opened up two of them
- decided they didn't want to be part of it anymore.
- But the two that remain were Arnie Pegish and Walt Townsend.
- And Arnie made his presence known without being visible
- all the time.
- He was more behind the scenes.
- Walt was the active, outgoing partner for the Bachelor Forum
- until Walt passed away and then Arnie became
- the sole proprietor of it.
- And he became very, very active in front and behind.
- And even after our little group disband of bar owners
- Arnie and I became very--
- still remain very close friends.
- Would rely on each other.
- I could call Arnie for anything and vise versa.
- And then he started getting a little sick, ill himself,
- and he became more in the background.
- So Arnie wasn't as visible but he was always available.
- Arnie was 100 percent available from a phone call away.
- If there was anything that I needed or the gay community
- needed.
- He was very, very much involved in the Gay Alliance.
- I believe that they honored him with an award
- if I'm not mistaken.
- And with the AIDS foundations Arnie
- was a great supporter and always called upon.
- And he never said no to anything.
- Never turned them down for a thing.
- He was a special man.
- And once again, another missed very good friend of mine
- that I've lost along the way.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So over the course
- of the last forty to fifty years we
- went from having these bars that were
- kind of secret little meeting places for gay men.
- You know, a lot of harassment.
- To a period later on where you have thirteen bars
- that are all very well known.
- And did various things.
- Now we're down back to just a handful of places.
- Where in today's society does a place like the Avenue Pub fit?
- Has your place changed in regards to it's relationship
- to the gay community?
- I mean, obviously it's still a gay bar
- but has your work changed?
- Has your vision changed?
- Where do you see your place at the table in today's society?
- GARY SWEET: At one point in Rochester
- we did have so many bars.
- I think we all were thriving but time
- started changing where people were really
- relying more on the internet than going out to the bars.
- Computers are a great thing but they
- did change the bar scene a lot.
- Actually, the Bachelor Forum--
- As the bars started closing the Bachelor Forum was doing
- a meet and date-- greet type thing over the computer
- on Sundays.
- Where people would go with their computers and then
- they found out what we could do this at home.
- We don't have to go to the bar to do this.
- So there's been a big change in the way the bars operate-- not
- operate but the way people come out to the bars now.
- I think a lot of them come out to meet people that they've
- already met online.
- You're supposed to meet people in a public place.
- So if they chat with someone online--
- I have a lot of people I see come in and sit at the bar
- and just keep looking for someone to walk
- through the door.
- That they obviously are waiting for a date, I'm assuming,
- they probably met online.
- And it has changed where people aren't--
- they're not looking to pick up people
- like they used to anymore.
- There's a lot more relationships.
- We're allow now to be in long term relationships.
- It's no longer the odd thing to have a partner.
- And now that we have our marriage.
- Back then if you were with somebody,
- it was unheard of for more than a week, anyway.
- But today, long term relationships
- seem to be the norm as far as staying healthy.
- Stability.
- People want more stability in their life.
- They don't want to flit around like we did then.
- They're more mature.
- Now, I see more maturity, even in the younger people
- today than back then.
- It's not a seven night a week, let's go out
- and pick up somebody.
- It's not done anymore.
- Let's go out and meet our friends.
- And a lot of people, let's invite our friends over.
- You know, so it has affected the bar business
- but the gay bars are always going to be around.
- There's always going to be a place for the new people
- to come out and go to that don't know anybody else
- and just coming out of the closet and just coming out.
- And they are now because of the education that we have
- and the support they have in the schools and other places.
- Gay people are not afraid to come out.
- But the gay bars, maybe not as many,
- but they will always be around for a meeting place
- and to hold a party.
- I have people come in and say we met here twenty years ago
- and that feels great.
- You know we met over there by your jukebox.
- I met my partner over there.
- To celebrate their anniversary or whatever.
- So that's what the bars have turned into,
- more of let's call home where we met, you know,
- this type of thing.
- But the pub I think is going to be there for a while, I hope.
- I hope a little bit longer.
- People come in and reminisce now.
- It's more of going back to their roots.
- This is where we met.
- This is where I met my best friend.
- Or you know it doesn't have to be a lover.
- My best friend and I met here this type of thing.
- But it has changed a lot where we
- don't need the volume of bars.
- We just need the good established bars
- where people feel safe.
- And I think Rochester has that right now with what we have.
- People feel safe.
- They come home.
- Let's go home.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Reflecting back on history, everything
- you've done with the Avenue Pub, everything
- you've done with the gay community,
- picnics, AIDS awareness, fundraisers,
- Dining for Dollars, whatever.
- How do you want history to reflect about you?
- What are you most proud of?
- GARY SWEET: Outside of my family,
- my three children, the Avenue Pub is my proudest achievement.
- I never thought I'd still be there today.
- It was a whim of opening up that bar.
- I was going to be there for a few years
- and I was going to move on.
- The gay community encouraged me not to go anywhere,
- to stay there.
- Once again, my family being my most cherished thing.
- The Avenue Pub is what I am most proud of.
- I'm proud of the community for supporting me.
- I'm proud of my employees.
- And if anybody has to remember me for anything
- just I think it would be remember me
- for being a person that gave them a place to go.
- I didn't do anything special.
- There's no honors or awards.
- I didn't do anything except for keeping
- doors unlocked for people to come in and feel safe.
- And that that's my greatest achievement really
- is being able to sustain all that I have
- and still have people be proud of where they're going.
- Because the people that do come to the pub
- are proud of it and respect it and I'm proud of that.
- That's my biggest achievement.
- Just remember me as the person that
- gave me a place to be my lover.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright.
- GARY SWEET: That's it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We'll wrap it up there.
- GARY SWEET: Thank you.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
- Get that microphone off, would you?
- GARY SWEET: Oh, that's right.