Video Interview, Gerry Szymanski, September 6, 2013

  • CREW: One moment, please.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: All right.
  • No worries.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And yeah, so this
  • is going to be conversation just between us.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Don't even worry about the camera.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You don't have to address and them at all.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Remember that the audience is not
  • going to hear my question to you,
  • so trying to formulate your answer in a way
  • that you're kind of introducing the topic that you're talking
  • about in that kind of a way.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: OK, sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: If you lose your train of thought
  • or you get tongue-tied, just stop and start again.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: OK.
  • CREW: I'm rolling, sir.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You know what?
  • (laughter)
  • Actually, stop for a second.
  • CREW: Oh, sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm going to put a little powder on you.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Oh, OK.
  • CREW: And I am rolling, sir.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • First question, Gerry-- give us the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name of how
  • you want it to appear onscreen.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Sure.
  • My first name should be G-E-R-R-Y,
  • and my last name should be S-Z-Y-M-A-N-S-K-I.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And if we were to put a title for you,
  • what do you think it should be?
  • GAGV Library?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: I guess you could say--
  • I call myself the GAGV Librarian.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Yeah.
  • That would be fine.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's put it in the context,
  • for me, if you can, Gerry.
  • Again, pre-Stonewall-- 1950s, early '60s, maybe even before
  • that, late '40s--
  • what can you tell me about the Gay Rights
  • Movement in that time period.
  • What were the things that were bubbling up?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Well, before Stonewall--
  • actually quite a few years before
  • Stonewall-- there was a very short-lived gay rights
  • organization in Chicago.
  • It only was around for a year, and it was a bit
  • of a social club for gay men.
  • But it wasn't really until the late 1940s, when
  • a man named Harry Hay was at a party with some guys
  • and thought, we should have like a gay rights organization.
  • He ended up contacting all the folks
  • that he spoke with at the party the next morning,
  • and they couldn't even remember him talking about this
  • because they were so hungover.
  • But this idea stuck with him, and so by 1950,
  • he had founded the Mattachine Society.
  • And it was very small.
  • It was just maybe a half-dozen or so guys.
  • But it was this idea with a charter that
  • was called "The Call" that sort of identified some goals
  • that gay people should be recognized
  • as rightful members of society.
  • And one of the things that Hay saw--
  • especially in the late 1940s with McCarthyism,
  • which was then targeting communists,
  • with Hollywood writers being blacklisted
  • and all sorts of folks being assumed to be communists--
  • that gay people were next.
  • And he really wanted to try to stem that tide as quickly
  • as possible, which was very forward-thinking on his part.
  • And so these guys got together.
  • They first call themselves the Society of Fools,
  • and then someone recalled that there was this Société de
  • Mattachine in France back in the Middle Ages,
  • and they were guys who wore masks and were almost like
  • court jesters.
  • They were able to sort of say things against the government
  • and against the King and not get in trouble for it.
  • So the idea of the court jester and the court jesters outfit
  • with the diamonds became the symbol of this new society.
  • It started out first as a national society,
  • and then there were chapters in major places
  • all across the country.
  • They came out with their own magazine, Mattachine Review,
  • which the GAGV is lucky to have some copies of from the 1950s.
  • But it was very much an underground movement, you know.
  • People's initials were used instead of their full names
  • because people could get arrested just for admitting
  • being a homosexual.
  • On the women's side, there was a group
  • called the Daughters of Bilitis, and that was founded
  • by Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon.
  • And they were pretty closely affiliated
  • with Mattachine Society.
  • But it's really kind of amazing.
  • You read about how they actually had
  • a conference in San Francisco.
  • The police actually raided the conference,
  • and they came in to make sure that none of the women
  • were wearing men's clothing, which would have been illegal.
  • It just is mind-blowing.
  • So both of these organizations were
  • kind of existing in centralized locations like San Francisco,
  • and the Mattachine Society was located in LA.
  • But then they had chapters that were all across the country.
  • They were kind of, you know, underground.
  • One of the things that they wanted to make sure
  • that they did was to let everyone
  • know that homosexuals were not any different
  • than regular people.
  • And so at these meetings, or if anyone spoke in public,
  • they were always well dressed--
  • you know, women wearing dresses and stockings,
  • and men were wearing ties and suits.
  • They were really kind of trying to change things
  • from within by sort of conforming to societal norms.
  • One of the earliest things that happened,
  • though, was that a gentleman who was part of the Mattachine
  • Society was actually arrested for public lewdness.
  • He was arrested because someone actually--
  • a police officer saw what he thought he saw.
  • And instead of just sort of acquiescing and accepting
  • the charges, which is what a lot of gay guys would do,
  • he actually fought it in court.
  • And the decision was sort of neutral.
  • It was deadlocked between the folks
  • who were deciding the case.
  • And they thought of that as a bit of a victory.
  • It was like the first time they had sort of fought back.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's move a little forward then.
  • In the research that you do, and you have done,
  • have you found any local awareness of the Mattachine
  • Society here in the Rochester area,
  • any involvement with them?
  • I know there was one chapter, I think, in Buffalo.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: There was a Mattachine chapter in Buffalo.
  • There was not one in Rochester.
  • And from what I can tell, after the foundation of the GLF,
  • there was some contact with it.
  • But what you find is that there were folks in the 1950s
  • and '60s who thought that the Mattachine
  • Society and the Daughters of Bilitis were like too radical.
  • But by the time of Stonewall, they were really
  • thought of as old-fashioned, and both groups actually
  • kind of faded from the scene.
  • I haven't really been able to find
  • any indication of any contact with folks in Rochester
  • in print or in any kind of records,
  • being in contact with those societies in the past though.
  • But if there was a chapter in Buffalo,
  • I'm sure that there are people in Rochester that
  • had connections to them.
  • But yeah, they were both kind of seen as being, well,
  • this isn't really the way that we want gay activism to be.
  • We want it to be more upfront, in your face,
  • and that's not the way that these two societies really
  • were.
  • Another thing that has a bit of a Rochester connection
  • because the folks who took part in these events
  • actually came to our town--
  • and it was pre-Stonewall, it was maybe four or five years
  • before Stonewall-- there were a group of gay people, lesbians
  • and gays, who picketed outside of the Liberty Bell,
  • in that square there, in Philadelphia.
  • They marched around with signs that advocated for homosexual
  • rights, and they were all well-dressed--
  • you know, the men were in suits and women in dresses--
  • and they only marched for like maybe 10, 15 minutes,
  • and then they walked away.
  • It was quite a thing for gay people
  • to do that in public and before Stonewall.
  • Those folks-- some of them were connected
  • to both the Mattachine Society and the Daughters
  • of Bilitis-- but those folks are folks that
  • were like the next generation.
  • They were like the '60s advocates as opposed
  • to the '50s advocates.
  • And those are folks who were featured in the film Gay
  • Pioneers.
  • We were very lucky to have three of those folks come
  • to the ImageOut Film Festival.
  • And after the showing of the documentary, there was a Q&A,
  • and it was really terrific to be able to see them
  • and to meet them.
  • For myself, one of them was a real inspiration for me,
  • and that was Barbara Gittings because she was a librarian.
  • And after Stonewall, she was one of the first people
  • to have the American Library Association actually
  • have like a working group about gay people,
  • and she was the first to publish a bibliography--
  • a printed bibliography that was distributed about gay subjects.
  • And that was a really big deal in the early 1970s.
  • She was really quite terrific.
  • I remember having a meeting with her
  • after the showing of the film because she
  • was interested in the library at the GAGV.
  • And I ended up taking her back to her hotel.
  • So she's riding in my car, and she just came out and said,
  • "Isn't it wonderful to be a homosexual?"
  • And I just had never really heard anyone say that.
  • And I thought, you know, it is.
  • And it was really quite wonderful.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to follow up with something here that you
  • just touched upon, that she being
  • an early pioneer in the 1970s of starting to get things
  • included in libraries and stuff like that.
  • But before that, there wasn't much available to read
  • or to pick up.
  • You couldn't go to your library and find a lot of information
  • about gay and lesbian people.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: You could not find very much information
  • at all at libraries.
  • Many times, libraries would just not purchase anything
  • about gay and lesbian people.
  • If they did purchase it, it was often kept in a room,
  • and you'd have to ask about it.
  • And so asking about it was almost like outing yourself.
  • What we've discovered, is that sometimes those materials would
  • get stolen from a library--
  • either by somebody who needs them,
  • like a gay person who's too afraid to check them out
  • on their ID card, or by someone who feels that they're
  • inappropriate for a library.
  • I know a few years ago, they found a bunch of gay books
  • in the Genesee River that had been stolen from the Rochester
  • Public Library.
  • Somebody was like, hey, there's library books
  • down here in the riverbed, and I think quite a few of them
  • are ruined.
  • And it was because someone didn't
  • feel that the library should actually have this information.
  • So to have someone on the American Library Association,
  • up in their ranks, actually sort of advocating for gay people
  • was a really big deal.
  • It's kind of wonderful.
  • Barbara passed away in 2007, just three years after she
  • had come to Rochester.
  • And her papers and all of her stuff
  • for her career as a librarian and with the American Library
  • Association-- and with this picket march in Philadelphia--
  • are now at the New York Public Library in their collection,
  • which is pretty terrific.
  • It's interesting.
  • You know, when you go back before the Mattachine folks,
  • we really have like no record.
  • There's like nothing really.
  • And since then, the folks that were part of this movement
  • have kept just attics full of stuff.
  • I remember seeing a documentary short about Frank Kameny, who
  • was also one of the picketers there in Philadelphia,
  • and how they went up into his attic,
  • and it was just full of stuff, including some of the picket
  • signs from this march.
  • And those are now at the Library of Congress.
  • The Del Martin and Phyllis Lyons archive
  • is at the Gay and Lesbian Historical
  • Society in San Francisco.
  • The last person that's sort of from this whole group that's
  • still alive, Lilli Vincenz, who also came to Rochester,
  • she just donated her stuff to the Library of Congress
  • as well.
  • So it's the individuals who were taking part
  • in these activities that have been the people that
  • are caretaking this stuff that is this treasure
  • trove of history.
  • It's just amazing to me that 40 years ago, these people
  • would have been fired from their jobs.
  • You couldn't find books about gay subjects in libraries,
  • and now these large libraries and archival institutions
  • are welcoming these collections and making
  • them available for researchers, and kind of validating what
  • these folks did and the fact that these folks saved
  • all this stuff.
  • To me, that's really amazing.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just to pull you back,
  • just so we don't get too far ahead here.
  • I want to still stay kind of with pre-Stonewall for just
  • a little bit longer here.
  • In the things that you've researched,
  • and the things that you're finding,
  • and things that you're including in your library,
  • what have you been finding in regards
  • to pre-Stonewall publications, and the kind of things
  • that you're finding?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Sure.
  • Well, we're finding-- at least in print--
  • two different things.
  • We're finding things that are being issued by these secret,
  • semi-secret homophile societies--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Set it up for me though with something like, you know,
  • the print stuff that we find in pre-Stonewall
  • are-- that kind of thing.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Well, the print stuff
  • that we find that is coming out pre-Stonewall is really
  • a sort of two varieties.
  • You're finding things that are being issued by these
  • semi-secret societies, these homophile societies like
  • the Mattachine Society--
  • they had a magazine called the Mattachine Review--
  • like the Daughters of Bilitis.
  • And another organization that was
  • a merger of gays and lesbians called ONE,
  • they had a magazine called The Ladder.
  • We have one copy of that.
  • And they're just like little digest publications
  • that kind of talk about what's going on with the organization.
  • And then we have things like, you know,
  • muscle magazines and little digest-size sort of pinup
  • things, but with men.
  • And they're from the Grecian Model Guild,
  • and they show guys wearing underwear and posing
  • and that kind of thing.
  • And you know that was the kind of thing
  • that gay men would buy back in the 1950s and '60s.
  • And apart from that, it's like there's nothing else really.
  • There's not a whole lot.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But going back to my first question,
  • these rare publications that we're finding,
  • a lot of them that were underground.
  • I mean, it was almost, I'm guessing,
  • word of mouth that you would even know that it existed,
  • that still was kind of the beginnings of what
  • was going to eventually become the gay movement.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Totally.
  • This whole sort of secret word-of-mouth thing,
  • where a gay guy would be at a party with other gay guys,
  • and he would have a copy of this magazine-- have you seen this?
  • And he would pass it on to someone else.
  • Or lesbians would get together for a meal,
  • and they would look over the most recent issue
  • of The Ladder.
  • And it's amazing.
  • You know, before the internet, before long distance,
  • when people were still calling, before touch-tone phones,
  • and when stuff was going through the mail and stuff could even
  • be confiscated because of its nature--
  • if there was anything to do with homosexuality.
  • And people could get in trouble for owning
  • this type of publication, as innocuous as it might seem now.
  • It's amazing that word spread and that different chapters
  • of these organizations were popping
  • up all across the country very quickly.
  • And it was very much word of mouth.
  • A lot of this sort of took place without any sort
  • of paper proceedings.
  • It was all people talking and maybe even using coded language
  • to have a meeting, or to get together, or to talk
  • about it on the phone.
  • It's really amazing to think now that people couldn't do
  • this kind of thing in public.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So from that historical perspective
  • of what you just said, that everything was very much
  • underground, can you give me your thoughts
  • on how significant it was that very soon after Stonewall we
  • had a gay organization starting on the University of Rochester
  • campus?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: I think it planted the seeds.
  • It really did.
  • But I also think that there was a bit
  • of a disconnect between the young people that
  • were at the colleges all across the country that were starting
  • gay liberation chapters and organizations, that they
  • sort of saw Stonewall as being this liberating moment.
  • And a lot of folks that were connected to these societies
  • were very nervous about that.
  • They were kind of wary of what was happening.
  • And so I think that, for older folks, what
  • was happening after Stonewall was almost like,
  • oh, well you know, we've been doing this,
  • and you're doing this now.
  • It took a while for, I think, them
  • to find some common ground.
  • I think that the younger people who were founding the GLF--
  • those college students, and being connected to a college
  • group like in Ithaca or in Buffalo--
  • those kids really didn't--
  • I don't think they really had a strong connection to what
  • was going on with the adults, the squares, you know,
  • in the 1950s and '60s.
  • They would have been their older brothers or uncles, you know.
  • Maybe not quite their parents' age, but really different.
  • And you know, the younger people that were at the U of R
  • then in the early 1970s, they're the people
  • that were the children of Vietnam,
  • the children of flower children, the children of rock and roll,
  • you know, of psychedelic life.
  • And that was so far removed from the Lawrence Welk type
  • world of the people that were sort of, well,
  • how can we figure this out?
  • How can we figure out how to be gay?
  • And how can we advance the gay cause while
  • at the same time not rocking the boat?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's jump to historical preservation.
  • Setting aside our bias that we're
  • involved in with the documentary project.
  • We're at a very interesting time right now--
  • you know, 40-plus years of Gay Alliance history,
  • but even history before that.
  • But we're in an interesting time now where
  • we either step forward and start saving this history,
  • seeking this history out, pulling it
  • all together, and now, in terms of technology,
  • digitizing it all.
  • How exciting is that?
  • Why, again, is this such a significant opportunity
  • right now to be able to do this-- not to be able to do it,
  • but to just do it?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Well, I think it's
  • a really exciting time for the preservation
  • of this gay history.
  • You know, with some of these gay pioneers
  • passing away or getting really old,
  • their papers are now going to these really important
  • institutions, like in their public library, the Library
  • of Congress, the Smithsonian.
  • But it's now apparent to agencies like the New York
  • State Education Department, they're
  • starting to fund grants for LGBT organizations
  • to be able to document their history,
  • to be able to say, OK, what's out there?
  • And we've been really lucky to receive some of those grants
  • here at the GAGV, to be able to research
  • the different gay groups that have been around,
  • and to even be able to preserve our own history.
  • We're really lucky that we have an agreement with Cornell
  • University, which has a giant human sexuality archive founded
  • by an early AIDS researcher and a former publisher
  • of The Advocate magazine.
  • And it's great because everything
  • is in climate-controlled conditions,
  • and it's not terribly far away from us.
  • It's wonderful because they have stuff
  • from gay people all over the country,
  • as well as part of the GAGV's archival history too.
  • There is a great archive in Florida, the Stonewall
  • Archives.
  • People are really sort of saying, OK, this is important.
  • This is really important.
  • And these people are getting older,
  • the folks that were involved with something like these
  • pre-Stonewall movements--
  • they're getting quite old--
  • or with Stonewall, or with AIDS research and what
  • was going on during the AIDS movement.
  • And what we're finding is that filmmakers are making
  • documentaries about these types of things to try to capture
  • these stories before the primary source material--
  • the people themselves--
  • are gone.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: How lucky is it that we have an Empty Closet
  • newspaper that's been in existence for almost 40 years?
  • There's not a lot of communities around this country that
  • has that significant resource available to them.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: I think it's fantastic
  • that the Empty Closet has been around for all of these years
  • and continuously.
  • When I tell people in other places
  • that we have a gay newspaper, they're like, well,
  • you have a gay newspaper?
  • I'm like, yeah, it's been published since 1971.
  • They're amazed because they don't have this community
  • resource.
  • They don't have this history, this printed
  • history and printed, you know, this
  • is what's going to happen--
  • this is what happened.
  • You know, this is how it worked out.
  • Here's a photograph.
  • Who's going to speak?
  • This is what it was like when this person spoke
  • and what they spoke about.
  • This event is going to happen.
  • And to have that be this massive resource is amazing.
  • And the fact that we were able to get it digitized
  • with the help of donors and with the University of Rochester
  • to have it as a resource for everyone
  • to be able to research, I think it's amazing.
  • It is an absolute treasure and a gem.
  • It is a primary source document that not very many communities
  • have, and not very many communities
  • the size of Rochester.
  • It's wonderful.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Same kind of question,
  • slightly different take on it, is
  • that the Empty Closet, given its history,
  • is no longer just a gay and lesbian newspaper.
  • It's a historical tool.
  • It's a historical resource.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: The Empty Closet is a historical tool,
  • and it is a great tool for research.
  • But it's also being added to every single month
  • when the next issue comes out.
  • And I remember going to give a talk about the gay library,
  • and I brought the most recent issue of the EC,
  • and I said you are holding a piece of history.
  • You know, this is a record of what
  • happened in the gay community last month
  • and what's going to happen this month and maybe
  • a month and a half away from now.
  • But it's sort of now part of this historical record.
  • It's going to get digitized and uploaded,
  • and this is going to be--
  • it's like just adding to this wonderful history.
  • You know, going back from this little chapbook
  • to mimeographed sheets to printed on newsprint and now
  • it's in color--
  • it's part of that, and I just think it's fantastic.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I think that covers it.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: OK.
  • Cool.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Anything else that you
  • wanted to say that I didn't know enough to ask you?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: No.
  • I guess in thinking about this, I
  • wanted to let you know that I actually
  • have some photographs of these people
  • from when they came to town.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I figured as much.
  • You have a photograph of everybody.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: And you know, I'm like, oh, we're in 2004.
  • So I can find those, and I can send you some.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'll keep that in mind.
  • Are you going away anywhere?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: I am not, not anymore.
  • I'm staying.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Like within the next two weeks?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: And then the other thing, of course,
  • is that we digitized some of those covers
  • of those Mattachine Reviews, and I
  • think the one issue of The Ladder that we have,
  • which is actually kind of late.
  • It's from like the '70s.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That doesn't matter.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: And those are actually
  • up on that Google Drive, so you can access those,
  • and they're pretty high quality, so when I'm talking about that.
  • You know, we have a book about Harry Hay.
  • We have like books that have all this kind of stuff.
  • But it's really interesting to think about this.
  • And one of the things I was amazed about
  • was that there was a transcript online of an interview with Hay
  • that someone had done in 1974.
  • And when he was not even out yet,
  • he was propositioned by an older gentleman in San Francisco.
  • And the older gentleman-- this is in like 1929--
  • the older gentleman had connections
  • to this group in Chicago, this first
  • ever gay group which was around for a year.
  • And the interviewer said to Harry Hay, well,
  • did you kind of think about them?
  • Were you thinking about them when you were founding this?
  • And he said, well, I didn't model it exactly on them,
  • but it was in my memory from this conversation with this man
  • almost 20 years before.
  • And I thought, wow, that's just so wild
  • that there was sort of a thing, a thing, a thing, a thing,
  • a thing, a thing that's connecting this up together.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm just thinking through my head,
  • thinking what else I need to support it.
  • No, I don't think so.
  • Actually there is a question, and you may or may not
  • have an answer to this because if you did,
  • you probably would've told me already.
  • Again, pre-Stonewall, anything you know about Rochester
  • locally in regards to the gay rights movement--
  • you know, before the GLF, before things started bubbling there?
  • Do you have a sense of what it was like here in Rochester?
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: I have a sense of what
  • it was like in Rochester from talking to older folks.
  • You know, from talking to someone like Bruce Wolley,
  • but he was here you know so close to the time
  • of GLF being founded.
  • But talking to older folks and learning
  • that there were bars and clubs that gay people would frequent.
  • They may not be thought of as what we think of as a gay bar
  • today, but that there were people getting together
  • for dinner, that there were people getting together.
  • But it was just so underground.
  • Everything was just so--
  • yeah.
  • And it's like there's nothing in print--
  • nothing-- because it was so underground, you know?
  • And I think for us to not just have the founding of the GLF,
  • but for them to say, oh, we're going
  • to have like a little newspaper too, when they could have just
  • had meetings, and we would have no record
  • really unless they kept minutes and someone saved them.
  • But like, oh, we're actually going to have a publication,
  • and we're going to spread it around.
  • To me, it's kind of amazing.
  • And you know, perhaps that is their connection
  • to the Mattachine Society and to the Daughters of Bilitis
  • and to ONE, in that they thought,
  • hey, let's start a newspaper, and then
  • we're going to work on this, and it's
  • going to come out every month, and it's
  • going to turn into what it turned into now.
  • You know, where they could have just had a meeting.
  • Oh, we're going to get together, you know, put up a poster
  • that we would never see it since this was like a college group.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, talk to me about the difficulties
  • about researching a history that, until recently, really
  • wasn't recorded because it was so underground
  • and people were afraid to put things out
  • on paper, and the importance, again,
  • of capturing these stories now because the histories are
  • in people's memories.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Yeah, and it might--
  • we hope it's accurate as people are thinking back 40 years.
  • That's the difficulty is that since so much of this
  • was not written down on paper, is that we
  • have to talk to these folks.
  • We have to interview them.
  • We have to say, how did this happen?
  • Who did you meet with?
  • Who is this person in this picture?
  • You know, that kind of a thing, so
  • that we are able to fill in those gaps
  • with personal record.
  • (side conversation)
  • CREW: Still rolling.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Take it back just a little bit.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Because these things
  • were happening without any kind of paper records,
  • we have to rely on talking to people who were alive then,
  • who were involved then, and getting their stories down.
  • We have to interview them.
  • We have to find out--
  • what happened?
  • Who is this person that's in this photograph?
  • Where did you guys meet?
  • What did you talk about?
  • We can't research that.
  • It has to come from the people who were there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We'll leave it at that.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me get this off of you.
  • GERRY SZYMANSKI: Sure, sure.