Video Interview, Gordon Urlacher, June 6, 2012
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, yeah.
- (unintelligible) going to get another Rochester connections.
- But--
- GORDON URLACHER: 70s, I knew that.
- CREW: OK.
- I am rolling.
- GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Gordon, just for a mic check, give us the correct spelling
- of your first and last name.
- GORDON URLACHER: G-O-R-D-O-N U-R-L-A-C-H-E-R.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Sounds good?
- CREW: Sounds good.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So, in fact, I want to first start out in the early 1970s
- before you become the police liaison for the gay community.
- You know, we've interviewed other people who-- they
- talk about raids at the bar.
- They've talked about getting arrested in the parks.
- They've talked about police taking down
- people's license plate numbers.
- Talk to me from your point of view
- of what was the relationship of the police department
- with the gay community?
- What were the concerns form the Police Department's
- point of view?
- GORDON URLACHER: If I remember back in the early 70s,
- it's kind of hard to relate to the gay community
- because it seemed like it was kind of cut off from the police
- department.
- The impression I always had was that the gay community
- was very uncomfortable dealing with the Rochester Police
- Department, probably because of small incidents that
- were magnified by talking to other people who
- had a incident themselves that made
- them uncomfortable in dealing with the police.
- So my assignment didn't put me in a position
- where I really came into very much contact
- with the gay community.
- I was down on Clarissa and Plymouth,
- and it was mostly the black minorities
- that I would deal with.
- And most of that was with street violence, and that type
- of thing, that really was pretty separate
- from the gay community.
- So my first dealing with the gay community
- was when I got called into Tom Hasting's office.
- And he asked me if I'd be willing to work
- with the gay community to try to establish a relationship
- that he felt was lacking.
- I think, if I remember correctly,
- there was an incident that particularly spiked that,
- and it had to do with the perceived
- treatment by two men in dealing with the police officer.
- They felt that he'd made them very uncomfortable,
- and that he was very judgmental in the way he
- was handling their case.
- I don't remember the specifics of the case,
- but it somehow got to the attention of the chief
- probably through the Gay Alliance.
- And he called me in and asked me if I'd
- be willing to accept an assignment to work closely
- with them to try to establish a relationship for the Police
- Department.
- And I had no problem with that.
- I thought would be an interesting assignment.
- So I was glad that he chose me, actually.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, then, you accepted the assignment.
- So what was you first step?
- Where did you (unintelligible)
- GORDON URLACHER: First step was I met with the alliance.
- And, unfortunately, don't remember who
- was on the board at that time.
- But I just asked them what their experiences
- were with the police, and to try to get
- an idea of where we were at.
- And for the most part, it was, you know,
- the same things you hear all the time.
- We're being arrested in the park.
- We don't understand why.
- We saw a police officer at this bar.
- It's a gay bar.
- Why would the police officer be there?
- One guy told us they were taking license plate numbers.
- Things of that nature.
- And also, the fear they had of calling the police when
- they had a problem because they didn't
- know how the police officer would respond to their--
- to the fact that they were gay.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Um-hm.
- Let me follow up on that a little bit.
- There's going to be a couple of questions now,
- but we're already there.
- Talk to me a little bit about the reluctance
- of gay men or women reporting a crime because of that fear.
- GORDON URLACHER: It was really strange.
- The women, for some reason, seemed
- to accept me as the liaison with the police department readily.
- I never had felt any type of stress or strain
- while dealing with the females.
- Of course, because of the nature of their lifestyles,
- they probably had far less contact
- with the police than the males did.
- And like the female bars tended not
- to have problems that the male bars might have had.
- And the girls, as far as I knew, weren't
- out trolling in the parks where they were going get themselves
- in trouble.
- So the males had a couple of issues that were really, really
- difficult for them.
- One was that many of the men were married.
- Two-- many of them had jobs that could have, in that atmosphere,
- could have been affected by any notice that they were gay.
- Those were the two biggest issues.
- If, for example, one of the typical ones was robbery.
- That occurred quite regularly in the bars.
- You'd have a male who would be out trying
- to pick up guys in the bars.
- He'd pick up the guy.
- They'd go to his apartment or house.
- And then he'd end up getting robbed,
- and he'd be afraid to report the incident.
- He could have been married.
- Or as I say, might have been a situation where his job would
- have been jeopardized by reporting the incident
- and not having confidence that the police would deal
- with it in a manner that could guarantee the confidentiality
- that they really needed.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When we first spoke on the previous--
- GORDON URLACHER: Can we go off for just a second?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
- GORDON URLACHER: All right.
- Is this going the way you want?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.
- No, this is fine.
- GORDON URLACHER: All right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And I might come back and ask you--
- GORDON URLACHER: Oh, yeah.
- Absolutely.
- Yeah, that's fine.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That you might say some things,
- like, oh, that's really good, and I just
- want to make sure I get it.
- Why don't you just talk to me about the day that you
- ran into Patti Evans in the park, who was handing out
- the flyers, warning the men about police being in the park.
- Do remember that?
- GORDON URLACHER: No, I don't.
- I'm sure she does, right?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, she does.
- GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
- And I don't remember.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: She said something
- about you had asked her about coming
- to talk to the group about what's going on in the parks,
- and all that.
- GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
- It seemed to me, and I may be wrong,
- but my recollection of that was that as a result
- of some arrests at Durand Eastman Park,
- there were a couple of issues.
- One-- the complaint was it was a male police officer being used,
- and he was just sitting in the park in a situation
- where it looked obvious that he wanted to be picked up.
- And then he would be approached, and some offer would be made,
- and then the arrest would occur.
- Now, the police just didn't do that randomly.
- They had received complaints from a number of families
- who were in the park, and they thought
- that what the children were seeing was not appropriate.
- And I actually was in sympathy with the families.
- On the other hand, I didn't have a problem
- with warning people rather than having to arrest them.
- So as I recall, I thought I met with the Alliance,
- and Patti was one of the people.
- And that they came up with the idea
- of passing out the notices in the park
- that the police were there.
- And that they were going to be arrested
- if they got caught soliciting.
- So the best of my recollection is
- that I agreed with that idea.
- She went into the park, started passing out
- these little brochures indicating the problems.
- And I would love to see a copy of what it said,
- but I do believe it explained the problem in terms of family.
- And that there were police in the park who
- were going to arrest them if they continue to solicit.
- So that worked very well, as I recall.
- And it saved us a lot of court time for minor problems
- that were affecting the families that wanted to be in the park.
- So that's the way I recall that.
- Now, I might be wrong, but I know
- we were in agreement that I had no problem with what
- she wanted to do.
- And I don't know if was her specific idea or the group that
- came up with the idea.
- But because I know I expressed to them
- that our interest was just in stopping the solicitation,
- not in arresting people and clogging the courts
- with these minor charges.
- But that worked very well.
- And I believe that they continued
- to do that throughout that particular season--
- that summer season that year.
- And it helped us because we didn't have to assign policeman
- to that detail because the people were
- in the park passing it out.
- So that was probably the first example
- of a good relationship-- a working
- relationship between the police department
- and the gay community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to jump back a little bit.
- You kind of jumped over one thing.
- I want to jump back to your first meeting with the Gay
- Alliance.
- You brought another cop with you, Tony D'Angelo, who
- you describe as a cop's cop.
- Talk to me about that first meeting and your impressions
- there of, and Tony's impressions there of.
- GORDON URLACHER: Well, the reason
- that I wanted Tony there was because he
- was recognized as a cop's cop.
- And he had been on the job for, I'm sure, 20 years or more
- at that time.
- He had the respect of other police officers.
- And I felt if we were going to be able to convince the police
- department to work hand-in-hand with the gay community,
- we needed some credibility among the police officers.
- And I discussed the issue with Sergeant D'Angelo at the time.
- I discussed the issue with him.
- He was very open to the idea of trying
- to work with the community.
- And so we brought him in.
- I felt a connection with the women in the alliance
- immediately.
- The males were a little more skeptical
- because, again, they had the more negative experiences
- with the police.
- And one of the first things that we did
- was get a list of the bars because, as I said earlier,
- I really wasn't familiar with gay community--
- the bars and stuff-- where they were located.
- So they gave us a list of the bars so
- that we could tour the bars and get a firsthand idea of exactly
- what was going on in the bars-- what they were like.
- And then there was some testing.
- There was some man-on-man kissing
- that I thought was put on to see what our reaction was
- going to be to that.
- Did we react negatively?
- Did we not react at all?
- My goal was not to react at all-- to completely ignore it.
- And eventually, that test was completed,
- and that was the end of that type of thing.
- So as a result of that, we got to know a number of people,
- including the bar owners, because the bar
- owners were very uncomfortable with the police also.
- And our policy, by that time--
- I don't know what had gone on before that--
- but our policy at that time was not
- to target gays in any way whatsoever
- strictly because they were gay.
- I mean, it wasn't an idea, oh, this guy is gay,
- we're going to go out and get him.
- So I tried to convince-- and I think
- we were pretty successful in that--
- tried to convince the Alliance and the bar owners
- that if they had problems, to let us know what they were
- and give us a chance try to work them out.
- In dealing with the police officers,
- my only expectation was that they
- react in a professional manner to the community.
- Because there is no way that I'm going to overcome people's
- prejudices.
- And there were a lot of officers who had no prejudice,
- but there were other officers who did.
- And I felt, that as professionals, all
- they owed the gay community was to treat them with respect
- and deal with them in a professional manner,
- and that's all my goal was for the department itself.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch on
- that just a little bit-- just kind of expand
- on it a little bit.
- Can you talk to me a little bit about--
- I think you called it some of the sensitivity training
- you did with your officers.
- How did you get them-- particularly the ones who
- may have had some prejudice-- how
- did you get them to that point to understand,
- we need to be professionals.
- GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
- And that's it.
- Because Tom Hastings was concerned about this issue
- and wanted to do something about it,
- he did set up as part of her training program,
- and we were constantly going through training.
- One of the training programs that immediately followed our
- trying to establish a relationship
- with the gay community was to have sensitivity training
- included right along with all the other types of training
- we were having.
- It didn't just focus on gays, it focused on all prejudices,
- but gays were definitely a part of that issue.
- And I felt, in looking back, it was a fairly slow process
- of people trusting.
- You needed to have some incidents occur
- where people felt that they were treated
- the way you should be treated.
- Then that word had to get out to the rest of the community,
- well, maybe these guys are so bad.
- And, you know, you need four or five
- of those types of incidents that did go rather well.
- And before you know it, you've really
- kind of turned the corner and started
- to establish that type of relationship
- that any police department should
- have with any aspect of the community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I just lost my next question.
- Let me think about it for a second.
- Oh, I know what it was.
- Was there a moment or a particular time or incident
- that you realized, you know what, we're really
- making a difference here.
- When did you know that you were making a difference?
- GORDON URLACHER: One of the problems
- with having named me as the gay liaison was that
- because of my interaction--
- which was pretty regular--
- people came to trust me without trusting the police department.
- So the first step was once when I
- felt that a very sensitive crime was
- reported to me specifically.
- And I remember this was a married gentleman who got
- picked up in a bar by a guy.
- He was taken home.
- I'm sorry.
- He was taken to an apartment, and he was robbed, beaten,
- and his car was stolen.
- And he was willing to report that
- to me trusting that his family wouldn't
- know what had happened.
- And I felt that was a very major step because just
- talking to the man, you could tell he was very scared.
- Not only upset about the robbery,
- but afraid that his family was going to hear about this.
- That it was going to destroy his marriage.
- And just the mere fact that this guy
- was willing to take a chance and report that, my sense was that
- never would have happened if Hastings hadn't named a person
- to work with the community.
- So that was the initial step from my personal point.
- I felt it-- and I can't remember exactly how we started
- to overcome this-- but I wanted these crime victims
- to start reporting these incidents
- to police officers in general, not asking for me specifically.
- So what I would do is if we got a call--
- it ended up coming to me in the beginning--
- I started bringing the police officers that were in the area
- where the crime occurred, specifically, with me
- and letting the people see that these officers were going
- to treat them in a manner--
- given the respect that they wanted
- and the confidentiality that they needed.
- So that was the big thing.
- It was introducing the officers in the area,
- when I'd get a call or complaint,
- to tell them that I had established some trust.
- I mean, now this isn't overnight.
- We're talking about over a year, maybe even longer.
- But at the point where I started bringing in the police
- officers, I think that they had already had the sensitivity
- training and the department was becoming professional enough
- so that they were able to deal with the Alliance and members
- of the Alliance.
- And I knew that there were officers, obviously,
- that still had their prejudices, and I couldn't care less.
- As long as they did the job the way
- I would want them to do the job for any person
- in the community, I was satisfied and so,
- it seemed, was the gay community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: If we can, I want
- to talk about maybe some of the people
- here at the Gay Alliance that you were working
- with more closely, and your memories of working
- with those persons.
- Talk to me about Michael Robinson.
- You seem--
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- GORDON URLACHER: Yeah, well, Michael
- was the president and at one point there--
- I don't remember the year--
- but because of our general relationship with the alliance,
- I would be talking to the president or board members
- pretty regularly.
- So Michael was very easy to deal with.
- I think I had already become involved with the Alliance
- before Michael became president.
- So I already had some credibility with the Alliance,
- and our working relationship was very easy and very trusting
- between the two of us.
- And there was a gentleman--
- I wish I could remember his name.
- We got involved in a homicide that occurred in Monroe County.
- And for some reason, and I don't remember the specifics
- of the details of the crime anymore,
- but one of the suspects was gay.
- And we had a go to Syracuse where
- they had a horrible relationship at that time
- with the gay community.
- The police department had a horrible time.
- And this gentleman that was with us is taking me around
- to the bath houses in Syracuse-- there were a couple of them,
- as I recall, in a few of the bars--
- to try to meet people.
- And here was this policeman.
- Whoever the gentleman was that was with me,
- he had the trust of the community.
- But they were wondering, what the hell
- is a policeman-- what is he doing bringing a policeman here
- into our bars.
- And I thought that he risked his reputation in trusting me
- and another police officer that went
- with me to Syracuse to do that.
- And I've always looked back on that with a lot of fondness
- because I thought it was an interesting situation,
- and he was under more stress than we were.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Another person that we're
- kind of focusing in on this documentary is Tim Mains.
- Do you remember dealing with Tim at all?
- GORDON URLACHER: Tim Mains.
- Oh, sure.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was he like and--
- [INTERPOSING VOICES]
- GORDON URLACHER: He was very easy to deal with.
- If there was a formal complaint made to the city,
- Tim ended up hearing about it, of course.
- And then he and I would just talk confidentially
- about whatever the complaint was.
- And our relationship was good enough so
- that I was able to tell him things,
- in trust, that they would stay confidential.
- And he would tell me things that were confidential,
- so that we could get a clear understanding of what
- the problems were.
- And then because of our trust in each other,
- we were able to resolve issues a lot easier.
- So Tim was very good to work with, very, very good
- work with.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I've got one more question for you
- before I ask this last question.
- There's one kind of question that I--
- GORDON URLACHER: I honestly wish I could remember
- more about the people because--
- it really is a shame because there were some really good
- relationships that, you know, after 10 years
- we didn't see each other.
- Now that's 25 or 30 years ago, so my mind
- is not what it used to be, unfortunately.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When you were first approached
- by Tom Hastings to take on the role as the liaison,
- you were pretty much, yeah, let's go for it.
- But were there any fears for you, personally, concerns
- with this (unintelligible)
- GORDON URLACHER: No.
- No it didn't bother me.
- It didn't worry me at all.
- I felt that if it was an issue with the community
- and with the police department, it had to be resolved.
- I thought I had the personality to do that job,
- so I wasn't at all concerned.
- I also have a big issue with minorities
- not being treated fairly, so it fit
- right into my personal beliefs about things
- that needed to be corrected.
- So I was actually kind of pleased that he asked me.
- Always wondered why he asked me.
- But I think it ended up being a good choice.
- I think it worked out well for the community and the police
- department.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So you had been the liaison from 1974
- till when you became Chief?
- GORDON URLACHER: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What (unintelligible)
- GORDON URLACHER: But actually, that was '84, '85.
- But by that time, I was very seldom
- called upon for any specific issues
- because we had worked this out well enough
- so that when the community had a problem,
- they just started calling it in and, basically, very
- seldom ever heard any problems.
- But if I did, it would filter through the Alliance
- to me or through Tim from the city of Rochester to me.
- So I was kept aware of problems, but they were minimal compared
- to the issues from the 70s.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- But you officially assigned it to someone else--
- GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
- When I became Chief we assigned Roy Ruffin to that job.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- I just like updates straight across.
- So the last question is-- and you probably kind of hinted
- upon it-- but in that time period, in your work
- as a police liaison, what are you most proud of?
- GORDON URLACHER: I was probably the most proud
- of the police officers that worked in the department
- because, as I say, I knew they were prejudiced.
- But my sense in talking to the community
- after a few years of doing this, was
- that they started to become comfortable with the police
- officers that were handling their problems for them.
- And they did sense some prejudice from time to time,
- but they at least felt that they were getting a fair shake
- in trying to resolve whatever issues they were dealing with.
- So that made me feel the best because that
- was the whole point of taking on the job of liaison,
- was trying to establish a comfortable relationship
- between the department and the community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- That's all I have.
- GORDON URLACHER: OK.
- Seemed like it went fairly well.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.