Video Interview, Gordon Urlacher, June 6, 2012

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, yeah.
  • (unintelligible) going to get another Rochester connections.
  • But--
  • GORDON URLACHER: 70s, I knew that.
  • CREW: OK.
  • I am rolling.
  • GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Gordon, just for a mic check, give us the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name.
  • GORDON URLACHER: G-O-R-D-O-N U-R-L-A-C-H-E-R.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Sounds good?
  • CREW: Sounds good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • So, in fact, I want to first start out in the early 1970s
  • before you become the police liaison for the gay community.
  • You know, we've interviewed other people who-- they
  • talk about raids at the bar.
  • They've talked about getting arrested in the parks.
  • They've talked about police taking down
  • people's license plate numbers.
  • Talk to me from your point of view
  • of what was the relationship of the police department
  • with the gay community?
  • What were the concerns form the Police Department's
  • point of view?
  • GORDON URLACHER: If I remember back in the early 70s,
  • it's kind of hard to relate to the gay community
  • because it seemed like it was kind of cut off from the police
  • department.
  • The impression I always had was that the gay community
  • was very uncomfortable dealing with the Rochester Police
  • Department, probably because of small incidents that
  • were magnified by talking to other people who
  • had a incident themselves that made
  • them uncomfortable in dealing with the police.
  • So my assignment didn't put me in a position
  • where I really came into very much contact
  • with the gay community.
  • I was down on Clarissa and Plymouth,
  • and it was mostly the black minorities
  • that I would deal with.
  • And most of that was with street violence, and that type
  • of thing, that really was pretty separate
  • from the gay community.
  • So my first dealing with the gay community
  • was when I got called into Tom Hasting's office.
  • And he asked me if I'd be willing to work
  • with the gay community to try to establish a relationship
  • that he felt was lacking.
  • I think, if I remember correctly,
  • there was an incident that particularly spiked that,
  • and it had to do with the perceived
  • treatment by two men in dealing with the police officer.
  • They felt that he'd made them very uncomfortable,
  • and that he was very judgmental in the way he
  • was handling their case.
  • I don't remember the specifics of the case,
  • but it somehow got to the attention of the chief
  • probably through the Gay Alliance.
  • And he called me in and asked me if I'd
  • be willing to accept an assignment to work closely
  • with them to try to establish a relationship for the Police
  • Department.
  • And I had no problem with that.
  • I thought would be an interesting assignment.
  • So I was glad that he chose me, actually.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, then, you accepted the assignment.
  • So what was you first step?
  • Where did you (unintelligible)
  • GORDON URLACHER: First step was I met with the alliance.
  • And, unfortunately, don't remember who
  • was on the board at that time.
  • But I just asked them what their experiences
  • were with the police, and to try to get
  • an idea of where we were at.
  • And for the most part, it was, you know,
  • the same things you hear all the time.
  • We're being arrested in the park.
  • We don't understand why.
  • We saw a police officer at this bar.
  • It's a gay bar.
  • Why would the police officer be there?
  • One guy told us they were taking license plate numbers.
  • Things of that nature.
  • And also, the fear they had of calling the police when
  • they had a problem because they didn't
  • know how the police officer would respond to their--
  • to the fact that they were gay.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Um-hm.
  • Let me follow up on that a little bit.
  • There's going to be a couple of questions now,
  • but we're already there.
  • Talk to me a little bit about the reluctance
  • of gay men or women reporting a crime because of that fear.
  • GORDON URLACHER: It was really strange.
  • The women, for some reason, seemed
  • to accept me as the liaison with the police department readily.
  • I never had felt any type of stress or strain
  • while dealing with the females.
  • Of course, because of the nature of their lifestyles,
  • they probably had far less contact
  • with the police than the males did.
  • And like the female bars tended not
  • to have problems that the male bars might have had.
  • And the girls, as far as I knew, weren't
  • out trolling in the parks where they were going get themselves
  • in trouble.
  • So the males had a couple of issues that were really, really
  • difficult for them.
  • One was that many of the men were married.
  • Two-- many of them had jobs that could have, in that atmosphere,
  • could have been affected by any notice that they were gay.
  • Those were the two biggest issues.
  • If, for example, one of the typical ones was robbery.
  • That occurred quite regularly in the bars.
  • You'd have a male who would be out trying
  • to pick up guys in the bars.
  • He'd pick up the guy.
  • They'd go to his apartment or house.
  • And then he'd end up getting robbed,
  • and he'd be afraid to report the incident.
  • He could have been married.
  • Or as I say, might have been a situation where his job would
  • have been jeopardized by reporting the incident
  • and not having confidence that the police would deal
  • with it in a manner that could guarantee the confidentiality
  • that they really needed.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When we first spoke on the previous--
  • GORDON URLACHER: Can we go off for just a second?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
  • GORDON URLACHER: All right.
  • Is this going the way you want?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, yeah.
  • No, this is fine.
  • GORDON URLACHER: All right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And I might come back and ask you--
  • GORDON URLACHER: Oh, yeah.
  • Absolutely.
  • Yeah, that's fine.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That you might say some things,
  • like, oh, that's really good, and I just
  • want to make sure I get it.
  • Why don't you just talk to me about the day that you
  • ran into Patti Evans in the park, who was handing out
  • the flyers, warning the men about police being in the park.
  • Do remember that?
  • GORDON URLACHER: No, I don't.
  • I'm sure she does, right?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, she does.
  • GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
  • And I don't remember.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: She said something
  • about you had asked her about coming
  • to talk to the group about what's going on in the parks,
  • and all that.
  • GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
  • It seemed to me, and I may be wrong,
  • but my recollection of that was that as a result
  • of some arrests at Durand Eastman Park,
  • there were a couple of issues.
  • One-- the complaint was it was a male police officer being used,
  • and he was just sitting in the park in a situation
  • where it looked obvious that he wanted to be picked up.
  • And then he would be approached, and some offer would be made,
  • and then the arrest would occur.
  • Now, the police just didn't do that randomly.
  • They had received complaints from a number of families
  • who were in the park, and they thought
  • that what the children were seeing was not appropriate.
  • And I actually was in sympathy with the families.
  • On the other hand, I didn't have a problem
  • with warning people rather than having to arrest them.
  • So as I recall, I thought I met with the Alliance,
  • and Patti was one of the people.
  • And that they came up with the idea
  • of passing out the notices in the park
  • that the police were there.
  • And that they were going to be arrested
  • if they got caught soliciting.
  • So the best of my recollection is
  • that I agreed with that idea.
  • She went into the park, started passing out
  • these little brochures indicating the problems.
  • And I would love to see a copy of what it said,
  • but I do believe it explained the problem in terms of family.
  • And that there were police in the park who
  • were going to arrest them if they continue to solicit.
  • So that worked very well, as I recall.
  • And it saved us a lot of court time for minor problems
  • that were affecting the families that wanted to be in the park.
  • So that's the way I recall that.
  • Now, I might be wrong, but I know
  • we were in agreement that I had no problem with what
  • she wanted to do.
  • And I don't know if was her specific idea or the group that
  • came up with the idea.
  • But because I know I expressed to them
  • that our interest was just in stopping the solicitation,
  • not in arresting people and clogging the courts
  • with these minor charges.
  • But that worked very well.
  • And I believe that they continued
  • to do that throughout that particular season--
  • that summer season that year.
  • And it helped us because we didn't have to assign policeman
  • to that detail because the people were
  • in the park passing it out.
  • So that was probably the first example
  • of a good relationship-- a working
  • relationship between the police department
  • and the gay community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to jump back a little bit.
  • You kind of jumped over one thing.
  • I want to jump back to your first meeting with the Gay
  • Alliance.
  • You brought another cop with you, Tony D'Angelo, who
  • you describe as a cop's cop.
  • Talk to me about that first meeting and your impressions
  • there of, and Tony's impressions there of.
  • GORDON URLACHER: Well, the reason
  • that I wanted Tony there was because he
  • was recognized as a cop's cop.
  • And he had been on the job for, I'm sure, 20 years or more
  • at that time.
  • He had the respect of other police officers.
  • And I felt if we were going to be able to convince the police
  • department to work hand-in-hand with the gay community,
  • we needed some credibility among the police officers.
  • And I discussed the issue with Sergeant D'Angelo at the time.
  • I discussed the issue with him.
  • He was very open to the idea of trying
  • to work with the community.
  • And so we brought him in.
  • I felt a connection with the women in the alliance
  • immediately.
  • The males were a little more skeptical
  • because, again, they had the more negative experiences
  • with the police.
  • And one of the first things that we did
  • was get a list of the bars because, as I said earlier,
  • I really wasn't familiar with gay community--
  • the bars and stuff-- where they were located.
  • So they gave us a list of the bars so
  • that we could tour the bars and get a firsthand idea of exactly
  • what was going on in the bars-- what they were like.
  • And then there was some testing.
  • There was some man-on-man kissing
  • that I thought was put on to see what our reaction was
  • going to be to that.
  • Did we react negatively?
  • Did we not react at all?
  • My goal was not to react at all-- to completely ignore it.
  • And eventually, that test was completed,
  • and that was the end of that type of thing.
  • So as a result of that, we got to know a number of people,
  • including the bar owners, because the bar
  • owners were very uncomfortable with the police also.
  • And our policy, by that time--
  • I don't know what had gone on before that--
  • but our policy at that time was not
  • to target gays in any way whatsoever
  • strictly because they were gay.
  • I mean, it wasn't an idea, oh, this guy is gay,
  • we're going to go out and get him.
  • So I tried to convince-- and I think
  • we were pretty successful in that--
  • tried to convince the Alliance and the bar owners
  • that if they had problems, to let us know what they were
  • and give us a chance try to work them out.
  • In dealing with the police officers,
  • my only expectation was that they
  • react in a professional manner to the community.
  • Because there is no way that I'm going to overcome people's
  • prejudices.
  • And there were a lot of officers who had no prejudice,
  • but there were other officers who did.
  • And I felt, that as professionals, all
  • they owed the gay community was to treat them with respect
  • and deal with them in a professional manner,
  • and that's all my goal was for the department itself.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch on
  • that just a little bit-- just kind of expand
  • on it a little bit.
  • Can you talk to me a little bit about--
  • I think you called it some of the sensitivity training
  • you did with your officers.
  • How did you get them-- particularly the ones who
  • may have had some prejudice-- how
  • did you get them to that point to understand,
  • we need to be professionals.
  • GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
  • And that's it.
  • Because Tom Hastings was concerned about this issue
  • and wanted to do something about it,
  • he did set up as part of her training program,
  • and we were constantly going through training.
  • One of the training programs that immediately followed our
  • trying to establish a relationship
  • with the gay community was to have sensitivity training
  • included right along with all the other types of training
  • we were having.
  • It didn't just focus on gays, it focused on all prejudices,
  • but gays were definitely a part of that issue.
  • And I felt, in looking back, it was a fairly slow process
  • of people trusting.
  • You needed to have some incidents occur
  • where people felt that they were treated
  • the way you should be treated.
  • Then that word had to get out to the rest of the community,
  • well, maybe these guys are so bad.
  • And, you know, you need four or five
  • of those types of incidents that did go rather well.
  • And before you know it, you've really
  • kind of turned the corner and started
  • to establish that type of relationship
  • that any police department should
  • have with any aspect of the community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I just lost my next question.
  • Let me think about it for a second.
  • Oh, I know what it was.
  • Was there a moment or a particular time or incident
  • that you realized, you know what, we're really
  • making a difference here.
  • When did you know that you were making a difference?
  • GORDON URLACHER: One of the problems
  • with having named me as the gay liaison was that
  • because of my interaction--
  • which was pretty regular--
  • people came to trust me without trusting the police department.
  • So the first step was once when I
  • felt that a very sensitive crime was
  • reported to me specifically.
  • And I remember this was a married gentleman who got
  • picked up in a bar by a guy.
  • He was taken home.
  • I'm sorry.
  • He was taken to an apartment, and he was robbed, beaten,
  • and his car was stolen.
  • And he was willing to report that
  • to me trusting that his family wouldn't
  • know what had happened.
  • And I felt that was a very major step because just
  • talking to the man, you could tell he was very scared.
  • Not only upset about the robbery,
  • but afraid that his family was going to hear about this.
  • That it was going to destroy his marriage.
  • And just the mere fact that this guy
  • was willing to take a chance and report that, my sense was that
  • never would have happened if Hastings hadn't named a person
  • to work with the community.
  • So that was the initial step from my personal point.
  • I felt it-- and I can't remember exactly how we started
  • to overcome this-- but I wanted these crime victims
  • to start reporting these incidents
  • to police officers in general, not asking for me specifically.
  • So what I would do is if we got a call--
  • it ended up coming to me in the beginning--
  • I started bringing the police officers that were in the area
  • where the crime occurred, specifically, with me
  • and letting the people see that these officers were going
  • to treat them in a manner--
  • given the respect that they wanted
  • and the confidentiality that they needed.
  • So that was the big thing.
  • It was introducing the officers in the area,
  • when I'd get a call or complaint,
  • to tell them that I had established some trust.
  • I mean, now this isn't overnight.
  • We're talking about over a year, maybe even longer.
  • But at the point where I started bringing in the police
  • officers, I think that they had already had the sensitivity
  • training and the department was becoming professional enough
  • so that they were able to deal with the Alliance and members
  • of the Alliance.
  • And I knew that there were officers, obviously,
  • that still had their prejudices, and I couldn't care less.
  • As long as they did the job the way
  • I would want them to do the job for any person
  • in the community, I was satisfied and so,
  • it seemed, was the gay community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: If we can, I want
  • to talk about maybe some of the people
  • here at the Gay Alliance that you were working
  • with more closely, and your memories of working
  • with those persons.
  • Talk to me about Michael Robinson.
  • You seem--
  • [INTERPOSING VOICES]
  • GORDON URLACHER: Yeah, well, Michael
  • was the president and at one point there--
  • I don't remember the year--
  • but because of our general relationship with the alliance,
  • I would be talking to the president or board members
  • pretty regularly.
  • So Michael was very easy to deal with.
  • I think I had already become involved with the Alliance
  • before Michael became president.
  • So I already had some credibility with the Alliance,
  • and our working relationship was very easy and very trusting
  • between the two of us.
  • And there was a gentleman--
  • I wish I could remember his name.
  • We got involved in a homicide that occurred in Monroe County.
  • And for some reason, and I don't remember the specifics
  • of the details of the crime anymore,
  • but one of the suspects was gay.
  • And we had a go to Syracuse where
  • they had a horrible relationship at that time
  • with the gay community.
  • The police department had a horrible time.
  • And this gentleman that was with us is taking me around
  • to the bath houses in Syracuse-- there were a couple of them,
  • as I recall, in a few of the bars--
  • to try to meet people.
  • And here was this policeman.
  • Whoever the gentleman was that was with me,
  • he had the trust of the community.
  • But they were wondering, what the hell
  • is a policeman-- what is he doing bringing a policeman here
  • into our bars.
  • And I thought that he risked his reputation in trusting me
  • and another police officer that went
  • with me to Syracuse to do that.
  • And I've always looked back on that with a lot of fondness
  • because I thought it was an interesting situation,
  • and he was under more stress than we were.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Another person that we're
  • kind of focusing in on this documentary is Tim Mains.
  • Do you remember dealing with Tim at all?
  • GORDON URLACHER: Tim Mains.
  • Oh, sure.
  • Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What was he like and--
  • [INTERPOSING VOICES]
  • GORDON URLACHER: He was very easy to deal with.
  • If there was a formal complaint made to the city,
  • Tim ended up hearing about it, of course.
  • And then he and I would just talk confidentially
  • about whatever the complaint was.
  • And our relationship was good enough so
  • that I was able to tell him things,
  • in trust, that they would stay confidential.
  • And he would tell me things that were confidential,
  • so that we could get a clear understanding of what
  • the problems were.
  • And then because of our trust in each other,
  • we were able to resolve issues a lot easier.
  • So Tim was very good to work with, very, very good
  • work with.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I've got one more question for you
  • before I ask this last question.
  • There's one kind of question that I--
  • GORDON URLACHER: I honestly wish I could remember
  • more about the people because--
  • it really is a shame because there were some really good
  • relationships that, you know, after 10 years
  • we didn't see each other.
  • Now that's 25 or 30 years ago, so my mind
  • is not what it used to be, unfortunately.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When you were first approached
  • by Tom Hastings to take on the role as the liaison,
  • you were pretty much, yeah, let's go for it.
  • But were there any fears for you, personally, concerns
  • with this (unintelligible)
  • GORDON URLACHER: No.
  • No it didn't bother me.
  • It didn't worry me at all.
  • I felt that if it was an issue with the community
  • and with the police department, it had to be resolved.
  • I thought I had the personality to do that job,
  • so I wasn't at all concerned.
  • I also have a big issue with minorities
  • not being treated fairly, so it fit
  • right into my personal beliefs about things
  • that needed to be corrected.
  • So I was actually kind of pleased that he asked me.
  • Always wondered why he asked me.
  • But I think it ended up being a good choice.
  • I think it worked out well for the community and the police
  • department.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So you had been the liaison from 1974
  • till when you became Chief?
  • GORDON URLACHER: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What (unintelligible)
  • GORDON URLACHER: But actually, that was '84, '85.
  • But by that time, I was very seldom
  • called upon for any specific issues
  • because we had worked this out well enough
  • so that when the community had a problem,
  • they just started calling it in and, basically, very
  • seldom ever heard any problems.
  • But if I did, it would filter through the Alliance
  • to me or through Tim from the city of Rochester to me.
  • So I was kept aware of problems, but they were minimal compared
  • to the issues from the 70s.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • But you officially assigned it to someone else--
  • GORDON URLACHER: Yeah.
  • When I became Chief we assigned Roy Ruffin to that job.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • I just like updates straight across.
  • So the last question is-- and you probably kind of hinted
  • upon it-- but in that time period, in your work
  • as a police liaison, what are you most proud of?
  • GORDON URLACHER: I was probably the most proud
  • of the police officers that worked in the department
  • because, as I say, I knew they were prejudiced.
  • But my sense in talking to the community
  • after a few years of doing this, was
  • that they started to become comfortable with the police
  • officers that were handling their problems for them.
  • And they did sense some prejudice from time to time,
  • but they at least felt that they were getting a fair shake
  • in trying to resolve whatever issues they were dealing with.
  • So that made me feel the best because that
  • was the whole point of taking on the job of liaison,
  • was trying to establish a comfortable relationship
  • between the department and the community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • That's all I have.
  • GORDON URLACHER: OK.
  • Seemed like it went fairly well.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.