Video Interview, John Curtis, February 22, 2013

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, John, just to start, give us
  • the correct spelling of your first and last name
  • and how you want it to appear on the screen.
  • JOHN CURTIS: OK.
  • J-O-H-N. C-U-R-T-I-S.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And how do you want us to title you?
  • Xerox employee, or GALAXe?
  • JOHN CURTIS: You could say GALAXe Founder
  • and Co-president.
  • Or a piece of that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I guess I didn't realize
  • you were one of the founders.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah.
  • Present at the-- there was a core of us
  • that were there at the creation.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: My first GALAXe introduction was through David.
  • JOHN CURTIS: David.
  • I was going to say David, and Jane Moyer.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, Jane.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: God, I haven't thought about her in years.
  • JOHN CURTIS: I'm back in touch with her.
  • She went out to the West Coast to Starbucks,
  • and now she's in Copenhagen.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: She was a fun gal.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, she lives life large.
  • I want to grow up and be Jane.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start from there then.
  • Let's talk about the founding of GALAXe.
  • And more to the point of, what arose
  • in the corporate environment that you guys
  • came to the conclusion that we need to--
  • I hate to use the word organize because that's
  • something you don't like.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But we need to organize.
  • We need to organize as a network.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Well, for GALAXe members at the time,
  • it was interesting.
  • It was before we really had email,
  • or communications were just starting.
  • And Xerox just had tools that had enabled that.
  • And so we actually formed an informal distribution
  • list called Lambda.
  • And it was one of these where we tried
  • to make sure it was very secret, because it wasn't
  • comfortable back in the mid-eighties to be out at work
  • or even in the community.
  • But there was a core of us who got to know each other
  • and connect with each other, and both
  • in Rochester and in technology companies,
  • there was starting to evolve a set of companies.
  • Xerox and some of us, and Kodak and some people.
  • And they were pushing some of the boundaries and saying wait.
  • We should have some parity in benefits and offerings,
  • some recognition, and some protection in the workplace.
  • And so as a group, we got together.
  • We started forming a set of messages
  • that we thought were important to share
  • with leadership and with management and human resources.
  • And so together, we had some stones, I'll say.
  • We were pretty brave and we actually
  • titled our first presentation-- it was a bunch of benchmarking
  • with other companies, and we titled it,
  • is Xerox a leader or a laggard?
  • And we went and brought information
  • about what some other companies were forward-thinking,
  • and some communities were starting to think about.
  • And so it was a core of us here in Rochester headquarters
  • that asked for the conversation to start
  • with senior management.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about the courage a little bit.
  • Because it was still a time when not a lot of people
  • were out of the closet.
  • JOHN CURTIS: No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Particularly in the workplace.
  • And talking about that personal choice
  • of having the stones to get up there and say,
  • "OK, whatever risk there may be."
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, some of it was testing the waters.
  • A lot of it was difficult, because being in the closet
  • as many of us were, then you had to make that decision.
  • Who and when were you going to come out?
  • Was it safe?
  • Either in your direct management organization,
  • or within the company.
  • And so there were some people who were on the forefront,
  • and who stepped out and helped show that it
  • wasn't going to be that risky.
  • In fact, I'll say in hindsight, looking back it's
  • proven to be a benefit.
  • But that's still hard to say when
  • there isn't legal protections or corporate policy
  • protections at the time.
  • So that was one of our first evolutions,
  • was going in and saying the first thing
  • we need is non-discrimination in our employment statement,
  • and those protections inside the company.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to put it into context
  • with other companies around the country.
  • I'm just going to put it onto the table, Xerox?
  • A pretty progressive company.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Here in a pretty progressive city.
  • Even though we're a small city, we've
  • always been pretty progressive when it comes
  • to civil rights and activism.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Oh yeah.
  • Oh yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Not so much for a lot of companies
  • around the country.
  • So, I mean, was that taken into consideration?
  • Well, OK, we're at Xerox, so we might be pretty safe here.
  • JOHN CURTIS: It was an area where
  • we could look at both Xerox and Rochester
  • as being a somewhat safe environment.
  • But I think that also gave us a strength and an innovation.
  • And again, one of the things I'm proud
  • of, that from this core of diversity in Rochester, we've
  • been able to share that out and now I'm
  • experiencing that not just in--
  • there's almost twenty states where there's still
  • not legal protections.
  • But a Xerox employee can feel comfortable
  • at a Xerox workplace.
  • But we've been able to take that beyond,
  • so one of the things I'm most proud of is in the Philippines,
  • we have employees who are reaching out
  • who are covered by that same Xerox nondiscrimination
  • statement.
  • But Xerox is also then able, because a lot of what we do
  • are serve other clients.
  • So we have our employees working in other workplaces,
  • in other businesses.
  • And so we're kind of those ambassadors
  • or those early adopters.
  • Xerox helped push that envelope, and again, kind of role model
  • that there wasn't going to be a doomsday scenario.
  • The world wasn't going to come to an end by embracing this,
  • and customers and other business partners
  • weren't going to rebel against us by Xerox
  • taking a progressive stand.
  • I think I'm also proud because I see Xerox.
  • One of the ways Xerox started was in Rochester
  • after the race riots.
  • And creating employee caucus group.
  • A diversity caucus groups, where they
  • would have constituent groups.
  • Women, African-American employees, Hispanic employees.
  • And so when we formed as a grassroots LGB.
  • And we really didn't embrace transgender at the time,
  • and I think that's been another evolution.
  • But we were able to go to them and adopt those prior models
  • that Xerox had.
  • And to leverage that spirit of corporate social responsibility
  • and say, "This is the right thing to do,
  • and you've done it before.
  • So, take a risk with us."
  • And then when we brought things to the table,
  • it was in a business dialogue or a context.
  • We looked through business policies.
  • We looked through and benchmarked
  • what other companies had done.
  • So we brought facts to the table,
  • and we brought a compelling story to the table.
  • And I'll say, it was difficult for them to say no.
  • It wasn't that they didn't at times push back,
  • but we were able to progress and bring it
  • as a realistic conversation.
  • It didn't have to be based on fear.
  • It didn't have to be based on, "We shouldn't do this."
  • There were paths that had already
  • kind of been forged and trodden for,
  • so we were able to model after that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want to know
  • about the initial conversations with management.
  • What were they like?
  • What was the core message that you were trying
  • to get them to understand?
  • JOHN CURTIS: One of the best things
  • I think we ever did was, we started those conversations.
  • And we've continued it to today, with personal stories.
  • And in doing that, it again kind of cracked open the door
  • to make it real.
  • This wasn't just intangible policies in a document.
  • This was a lived experience and challenges or fears
  • that we had.
  • And so at times we would share openly.
  • I went in sick to my stomach.
  • It was that point every time we had
  • to go in front of management.
  • It was taking a risk, but every time we
  • went home, in our relationships with our families,
  • that's a risk.
  • When we went to church or out in the community
  • or to try and find each other.
  • So sharing that perspective with people.
  • How much energy that was sucking away from us.
  • So we turned that into that business conversation.
  • And it's really evolved into, this
  • is both allowing employees to bring our head and our heart.
  • Our mind and our intellect.
  • Our creativity.
  • And why wouldn't you want to tap into that?
  • In fact, you're losing out on that if you constrain us.
  • If you don't acknowledge us, or worse,
  • if you are having employee groups or management
  • organizations.
  • Pockets of the groups that are discriminating,
  • then you're dampening that.
  • You're going to be holding back what we can bring.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to hone in on that a little bit.
  • I'm management.
  • Business owner.
  • I could easily just say, "You know what?
  • When you walk through my doors, you're here to do a job
  • and that's it.
  • I don't care about your personal life.
  • Your outside life.
  • You leave that outside."
  • Which sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to kind of discuss
  • that in what you just mentioned about the importance
  • of bringing your full self to the core of-- to your job,
  • and trying to get that across to management.
  • JOHN CURTIS: In many ways, again,
  • our relationships and the ability
  • to progress in the workplace is not just delivering output.
  • It's, how do you be more creative than your competitors?
  • It's, how do you put together ideas?
  • How do you put together collaborative work groups?
  • A lot of that came in the past from the old boys' network.
  • There was a network or a hierarchy
  • of people who connected, whether it
  • was couples going to dinner or at the country club
  • or on the golf course.
  • Well, we weren't tapped into that,
  • but neither were women or Hispanic employees
  • or other groups.
  • Part of what we learned was, wait.
  • You're creating these glass ceilings.
  • The pink ceiling.
  • You know.
  • We're not allowing the top talent, the top ideas,
  • if we suppress this.
  • So why would you want to invest in an employee
  • and train an employee and look for key talent
  • inside the organization, and then not take
  • advantage of that?
  • What if you're losing 10 or 20 percent of your employees?
  • Or of an individual who's holding back,
  • who's afraid to share.
  • Here's an idea I had or an experience I had.
  • Or here's just, at the coffee machine or the water cooler,
  • here's what I did this weekend.
  • Or here's what I experienced.
  • I'll share mine.
  • One of the most powerful things I experienced at work
  • was, we had progressed some of the policies.
  • But my partner and I had always dreamed of being parents.
  • We started down that path.
  • But we did that quietly, even that
  • was a different coming out.
  • There was some fear, and what if people
  • tried to intercede or stop that process?
  • But when I went to my management, our human resources
  • groups, my peers at work, I received nothing but support.
  • And even though the letter of our policies
  • didn't directly support adoption benefits,
  • they interpreted it and said, "You are a couple.
  • You will receive that benefit just as any other couple who
  • are adopting a child would."
  • They had a baby shower for us, to help welcome our children
  • home.
  • And so, in investing, in the caring for us,
  • I returned that with allegiance and diligence and a passion
  • that I could bring to work and be willing to commit.
  • We all have extra energy and interests or hobbies,
  • and things we can devote our time and energy to.
  • If we can help bring that, by opening up somebody's interest
  • and supporting them and who they are
  • and bringing their best, in, again,
  • the heart and the mind that they can bring into work.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about meeting some of the challenges
  • that you faced in getting this network up and running.
  • Was there any corporate backlash?
  • Was there any community backlash?
  • What were some of the hurdles that you
  • had to really get over?
  • JOHN CURTIS: I don't want to paint it as too rosy a picture.
  • I think some of the hurdles were us
  • being willing to bring forward, and continue to push.
  • And sometimes you have to ask three times, five times,
  • ten times.
  • So it was a willingness and a persistence.
  • There were pockets of resistance.
  • There were conservative managers.
  • Individuals who felt that they could not support some
  • of the things, as individuals.
  • So a lot of this would evolve from a corporate or a policy
  • conversation to an individual conversation.
  • And again, making sure that people understood,
  • how do we live out the letter of these policies?
  • And how do we make sure that that is raised.
  • If there was someone who was being discriminated against,
  • whether it was subtle.
  • You know, it may not always be overt.
  • It might be just covert in opportunities given to them.
  • Part of what we raised on family medical leave
  • and some other policies that aren't specifically defined
  • in federal or in legal statutes, we
  • had to have a willingness to have
  • the consideration that if my partner were to be ill.
  • If someone had a family member that they needed to take
  • care of.
  • Well, would that be seen with the same credibility
  • as a married straight couple?
  • That's still going to impact what that person needs
  • from the workplace.
  • So there were times when we would
  • run into that, where there were people
  • who either were discriminated against in the workplace.
  • And we were asked to help advocate.
  • And so trying to raise that conversation, whether it
  • be through their management or their human resources chain
  • to make sure that they were treated in fairness.
  • But really, for the Xerox conversations, in most cases,
  • we did not run into a lot of resistance or push back.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let me ask you this then.
  • You got this network off the ground.
  • You're doing conversations with management.
  • Events.
  • Pretty much getting it up and running.
  • How did you know you were succeeding?
  • How did you know you were making a difference?
  • JOHN CURTIS: We could see the difference
  • in more people willing to be out.
  • We could see more straight allies.
  • And realizing that that was part of the challenge
  • and the benefit we could offer as well,
  • continuing that education and conversation
  • for our peers, who may have a son or daughter who
  • was coming out.
  • And we're concerned.
  • Again, that same experience.
  • Over the weekend, we all have a lived experience.
  • And we come into the workplace, and you can't just
  • check it at the door.
  • Well even our straight allies, our friends,
  • had the same concerns, perhaps, that they
  • experienced and needed a place to go to learn more.
  • HIV awareness.
  • AIDS awareness.
  • In our community outreach, and the way we can do programs.
  • We could see, again, if we brought the conversation
  • beyond LGB to transgender issues.
  • And said, we need to continue this dialogue.
  • We're not done with the work yet.
  • And we need to reach back, and we
  • need to bring along and evolve this continuing
  • conversation for equality.
  • We're not finished on the journey,
  • and it's not in the same place in Rochester
  • or in Silicon Valley as it may be for someone in Kansas City
  • or in Mississippi or in a work place
  • where they may be feeling isolated or alone.
  • So we started to hear some pull.
  • Instead of us just pushing the message out,
  • management coming to us and asking us, "Help."
  • One of our things I'm very proud of,
  • we've evolved a lot of partnerships
  • with our other diversity caucus peer groups.
  • So we've delivered workshops and training modules
  • for our Women's Alliance.
  • For our African-American Forum.
  • We're seen as part of a diverse management development
  • and leadership team, and evolving candidates.
  • So we've arrived by continuing to evolve to a place
  • where it really is treated on par.
  • With a parity and a consideration for us.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch on that a little bit
  • about the ever-evolving nature of this network.
  • It's twenty years now.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah.
  • Twenty-five.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Twenty-five?
  • JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, twenty-five.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Wow, OK.
  • So you guys did what, like '87?
  • JOHN CURTIS: '88.
  • Yeah,
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: '88.
  • How have things evolved or changed over the years?
  • What is it that you're doing today as
  • opposed to when you initially started?
  • JOHN CURTIS: Well, a great example,
  • where the work isn't finished.
  • I hate to say it's never finished,
  • but Xerox acquired another company.
  • We went from about seventy to eighty
  • thousand employees to one hundred and thirty thousand
  • employees.
  • Different facilities and sites around the world
  • that were brought in.
  • And so part of what we activated right away
  • when we heard about the acquisition
  • was an offer with management.
  • How do we help evolve their, you know, onboarding.
  • Coming into the Xerox culture.
  • How do we help them quickly understand and adopt and take
  • forward?
  • So we've been able to do that in the Philippines,
  • in Kentucky, in India.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold on for a second.
  • Did you hear the-- (unintelligible).
  • I'm going to back up and ask the same question.
  • A little alarm thing went off there.
  • So really, again the question.
  • The work continues.
  • Let's pick it up from there.
  • JOHN CURTIS: So, one opportunity on the work
  • continuing to evolve.
  • Xerox had acquired another company,
  • and we went from seventy or eighty thousand employees
  • to one hundred and thirty thousand
  • employees, and facilities around the world.
  • So we quickly reached out and partnered with our corporate
  • and our human resources teams to say, "How do we
  • help with the onboarding and the training
  • to help the adoption of the Xerox culture and the Xerox
  • policies?"
  • To take that out to this new organization.
  • So we've had--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Someone keeps going in and out of the door.
  • JOHN CURTIS: That's OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Pick it up from there.
  • JOHN CURTIS: So we were able to reach out
  • through that to employees in the Philippines, transgender
  • employees, in policies.
  • So in many cases, it's back to the future for us.
  • But we can't just rest on our laurels
  • and assume that because it's comfortable here in Rochester
  • or comfortable at corporate headquarters for Xerox,
  • that it is comfortable.
  • We have an obligation to reach back and help others.
  • Whether it's transgender employees.
  • Whether it's in other countries.
  • Xerox has been willing, when we've
  • taken them compelling arguments, to take a political stand,
  • and to sign on to friend of the court briefs.
  • In the Supreme Court, we're just now preparing our statement
  • to support the striking down of DOMA at the Supreme Court.
  • But we've done that for marriage equality
  • in New York, in other states, in California.
  • And so our management, our corporate social
  • responsibility, really has projected beyond Xerox and out
  • to the communities where we work and where we live.
  • And so when we've asked them to share and stand with us,
  • they have been willing to do that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to hit that point again.
  • I'm gonna ask it to you this way.
  • Tell me how significant it is that something
  • that started here in Rochester, GALAXe,
  • is now having a global impact.
  • JOHN CURTIS: I am touched in the work
  • I am able to do on individual situations still.
  • A transgender employee who was stopped
  • at the door of a workplace in the Philippines,
  • but they are a Xerox employee.
  • And they were brave enough to stand up and say,
  • "I need help."
  • And I believe that our policy says
  • that we would not discriminate against someone based
  • on gender identity.
  • And they reached out to us, to GALAXe here in Rochester,
  • and said, "Can you help me?"
  • And with management and with H.R.
  • we've got transition guidelines.
  • And we've got support guidelines for transgender employees.
  • So we were able to bring those tools not just
  • from the work we've done here, but to go
  • make a tangible difference in somebody's
  • life in the Philippines, in India, in Kentucky,
  • or in Colorado.
  • When they have felt alone.
  • When they've felt scared.
  • But they've been brave enough to say, "I want that support.
  • The promise is there that Xerox will stand with me
  • and nondiscrimination will protect me.
  • Will you be there, GALAXe?
  • Will you be there Xerox, with me along the way?"
  • I've experienced that myself.
  • When my partner and I decided to get married,
  • as New York State was working on marriage equality.
  • The Empire State Pride Agenda came to Xerox,
  • and said would you make a statement?
  • We not only made a corporate statement,
  • but our corporate champion, one of our senior directors,
  • was willing to come here to Rochester
  • and stand on the steps of City Hall with the mayor,
  • and declare that Xerox, as well as the city,
  • as well as all these other supporters,
  • were standing for marriage equality.
  • And then, when I had the chance, my partner and I
  • walked up those same steps to get our marriage license
  • to be married in the state of New York.
  • A dream twenty-five years ago when he and I first
  • met, when I first started at Xerox, when we first
  • started GALAXe, we never, never could have dreamed
  • would be a reality for us.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So how does it make you feel, though,
  • that because of the work that you started,
  • and others started, with GALAXe and changing
  • a corporate attitude.
  • Is now and was instrumental in changing
  • political and community?
  • JOHN CURTIS: I think that's part of the message.
  • We all need to challenge ourselves, and take advantage
  • of it and empower ourselves.
  • That it can be an individual voice.
  • It can be a voice from a different direction
  • than is expected.
  • A corporate voice can, perhaps, move faster
  • than the political winds are willing,
  • or that a community or society.
  • And we've seen that in polling about marriage equality.
  • It may move slowly, but as we live our experience,
  • it's that virtuous circle.
  • It kind of proves itself out.
  • If you give us the chance, if you give us equality,
  • we will prove the fears to be wrong.
  • And if you then give us another opportunity.
  • So whether it was in the employment nondiscrimination,
  • if you give us the opportunity in marriage equality,
  • if you give us an opportunity to be parents.
  • To have loving relationships.
  • To have safe communities where we can
  • live as a family and own homes.
  • We can prove that there's nothing
  • to fear in gay or lesbian neighbors or colleagues,
  • at home or at work.
  • And to see that proved out, again, is a dream.
  • Whether it's in how my individual family relates to us
  • and is learned along the way.
  • How my colleagues at work have watched my peers and all
  • of us who've gone on.
  • And that's one of the other things I think we're proud of.
  • There are many Xerox people who've either retired or gone
  • on to other companies, but have taken that experience out,
  • and are seeding that in advocacy and in pushing boundaries
  • elsewhere.
  • So from Rochester, that diversity
  • continues to spread that innovation and creativity comes
  • from here and has gone out to make such a difference.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, let's jump ship.
  • Talk to me about your experience on the day
  • that you heard New York State passed gay marriage
  • legislation.
  • JOHN CURTIS: The day that it passed was surreal.
  • It felt like all of a sudden that acceleration.
  • The vote was going to actually progress,
  • and yet there always was a fear.
  • Would it get stalled?
  • Would someone intervene to block us?
  • To discriminate against us yet again?
  • Or to tell us, maybe not yet, or maybe the environment's
  • not right.
  • And so all through that evening as it continued to progress,
  • I recall we had a rally right across the street
  • from the Xerox headquarters in downtown Washington Square.
  • Went over to the rally, both as an individual
  • but wanted to be there, representing Xerox
  • and GALAXe across the street.
  • And so I stopped in at that rally,
  • and then watching that night as first the local media
  • was covering.
  • And then watching CNN and others start
  • to broadcast live from the state assembly chambers.
  • And see that moving.
  • And then for us, it was stunning.
  • I'll actually go to the next state,
  • is what was more meaningful.
  • That first day of realizing this was our new reality.
  • It might be challenged, but we had accomplished it.
  • We had accomplished it not just through the courts,
  • but through our representatives.
  • Representing we the people.
  • They stood up on our behalf, and were
  • willing to represent LGBT persons and the love we share,
  • and recognize that with the equality we deserve.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So if you could, just
  • talk to me a little bit about the experience of walking down
  • the aisle.
  • And you decided to do it in a church environment.
  • JOHN CURTIS: We did.
  • That's always been part of my partner David's
  • and my relationship.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Turn the alarm off.
  • JOHN CURTIS: So our decision to get married
  • was important to include a church
  • or religious aspect to it, as well
  • as our community and family.
  • So it's always been part of our relationship.
  • So the day after marriage equality passed,
  • David's mom actually happened to be visiting
  • and was watching our children.
  • We went out to dinner with some friends,
  • and when we came home, that evening before we went back
  • into the house, we proposed and decided to get married.
  • And then started looking at the plans
  • and how we wanted to plan this commitment and the celebration
  • of that commitment.
  • And so we did want to include church.
  • We found a space at the Colgate Divinity School in the chapel.
  • And had our friends, both sides of our family, our parents,
  • our siblings were there.
  • Friends, both work colleagues, as well as personal friends,
  • family members.
  • Our children were there, and part of the celebration.
  • And part of the blessing was not just our relationship,
  • but our family.
  • And so it's hard to say how meaningful
  • that was to have that opportunity
  • celebrated and recognized, with the blessing of faith
  • and the blessing of our community and friends.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just let me review my notes here
  • and see if I forgot anything.
  • I think we've covered it.
  • JOHN CURTIS: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • JOHN CURTIS: Very cool.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well thank you very much.
  • JOHN CURTIS: You'll find snippets that are articulate,
  • or somewhat.