Video Interview, John Curtis, February 22, 2013
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, John, just to start, give us
- the correct spelling of your first and last name
- and how you want it to appear on the screen.
- JOHN CURTIS: OK.
- J-O-H-N. C-U-R-T-I-S.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And how do you want us to title you?
- Xerox employee, or GALAXe?
- JOHN CURTIS: You could say GALAXe Founder
- and Co-president.
- Or a piece of that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I guess I didn't realize
- you were one of the founders.
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah.
- Present at the-- there was a core of us
- that were there at the creation.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: My first GALAXe introduction was through David.
- JOHN CURTIS: David.
- I was going to say David, and Jane Moyer.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, Jane.
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: God, I haven't thought about her in years.
- JOHN CURTIS: I'm back in touch with her.
- She went out to the West Coast to Starbucks,
- and now she's in Copenhagen.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: She was a fun gal.
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, she lives life large.
- I want to grow up and be Jane.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start from there then.
- Let's talk about the founding of GALAXe.
- And more to the point of, what arose
- in the corporate environment that you guys
- came to the conclusion that we need to--
- I hate to use the word organize because that's
- something you don't like.
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But we need to organize.
- We need to organize as a network.
- JOHN CURTIS: Well, for GALAXe members at the time,
- it was interesting.
- It was before we really had email,
- or communications were just starting.
- And Xerox just had tools that had enabled that.
- And so we actually formed an informal distribution
- list called Lambda.
- And it was one of these where we tried
- to make sure it was very secret, because it wasn't
- comfortable back in the mid-eighties to be out at work
- or even in the community.
- But there was a core of us who got to know each other
- and connect with each other, and both
- in Rochester and in technology companies,
- there was starting to evolve a set of companies.
- Xerox and some of us, and Kodak and some people.
- And they were pushing some of the boundaries and saying wait.
- We should have some parity in benefits and offerings,
- some recognition, and some protection in the workplace.
- And so as a group, we got together.
- We started forming a set of messages
- that we thought were important to share
- with leadership and with management and human resources.
- And so together, we had some stones, I'll say.
- We were pretty brave and we actually
- titled our first presentation-- it was a bunch of benchmarking
- with other companies, and we titled it,
- is Xerox a leader or a laggard?
- And we went and brought information
- about what some other companies were forward-thinking,
- and some communities were starting to think about.
- And so it was a core of us here in Rochester headquarters
- that asked for the conversation to start
- with senior management.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about the courage a little bit.
- Because it was still a time when not a lot of people
- were out of the closet.
- JOHN CURTIS: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Particularly in the workplace.
- And talking about that personal choice
- of having the stones to get up there and say,
- "OK, whatever risk there may be."
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, some of it was testing the waters.
- A lot of it was difficult, because being in the closet
- as many of us were, then you had to make that decision.
- Who and when were you going to come out?
- Was it safe?
- Either in your direct management organization,
- or within the company.
- And so there were some people who were on the forefront,
- and who stepped out and helped show that it
- wasn't going to be that risky.
- In fact, I'll say in hindsight, looking back it's
- proven to be a benefit.
- But that's still hard to say when
- there isn't legal protections or corporate policy
- protections at the time.
- So that was one of our first evolutions,
- was going in and saying the first thing
- we need is non-discrimination in our employment statement,
- and those protections inside the company.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to put it into context
- with other companies around the country.
- I'm just going to put it onto the table, Xerox?
- A pretty progressive company.
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Here in a pretty progressive city.
- Even though we're a small city, we've
- always been pretty progressive when it comes
- to civil rights and activism.
- JOHN CURTIS: Oh yeah.
- Oh yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Not so much for a lot of companies
- around the country.
- So, I mean, was that taken into consideration?
- Well, OK, we're at Xerox, so we might be pretty safe here.
- JOHN CURTIS: It was an area where
- we could look at both Xerox and Rochester
- as being a somewhat safe environment.
- But I think that also gave us a strength and an innovation.
- And again, one of the things I'm proud
- of, that from this core of diversity in Rochester, we've
- been able to share that out and now I'm
- experiencing that not just in--
- there's almost twenty states where there's still
- not legal protections.
- But a Xerox employee can feel comfortable
- at a Xerox workplace.
- But we've been able to take that beyond,
- so one of the things I'm most proud of is in the Philippines,
- we have employees who are reaching out
- who are covered by that same Xerox nondiscrimination
- statement.
- But Xerox is also then able, because a lot of what we do
- are serve other clients.
- So we have our employees working in other workplaces,
- in other businesses.
- And so we're kind of those ambassadors
- or those early adopters.
- Xerox helped push that envelope, and again, kind of role model
- that there wasn't going to be a doomsday scenario.
- The world wasn't going to come to an end by embracing this,
- and customers and other business partners
- weren't going to rebel against us by Xerox
- taking a progressive stand.
- I think I'm also proud because I see Xerox.
- One of the ways Xerox started was in Rochester
- after the race riots.
- And creating employee caucus group.
- A diversity caucus groups, where they
- would have constituent groups.
- Women, African-American employees, Hispanic employees.
- And so when we formed as a grassroots LGB.
- And we really didn't embrace transgender at the time,
- and I think that's been another evolution.
- But we were able to go to them and adopt those prior models
- that Xerox had.
- And to leverage that spirit of corporate social responsibility
- and say, "This is the right thing to do,
- and you've done it before.
- So, take a risk with us."
- And then when we brought things to the table,
- it was in a business dialogue or a context.
- We looked through business policies.
- We looked through and benchmarked
- what other companies had done.
- So we brought facts to the table,
- and we brought a compelling story to the table.
- And I'll say, it was difficult for them to say no.
- It wasn't that they didn't at times push back,
- but we were able to progress and bring it
- as a realistic conversation.
- It didn't have to be based on fear.
- It didn't have to be based on, "We shouldn't do this."
- There were paths that had already
- kind of been forged and trodden for,
- so we were able to model after that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want to know
- about the initial conversations with management.
- What were they like?
- What was the core message that you were trying
- to get them to understand?
- JOHN CURTIS: One of the best things
- I think we ever did was, we started those conversations.
- And we've continued it to today, with personal stories.
- And in doing that, it again kind of cracked open the door
- to make it real.
- This wasn't just intangible policies in a document.
- This was a lived experience and challenges or fears
- that we had.
- And so at times we would share openly.
- I went in sick to my stomach.
- It was that point every time we had
- to go in front of management.
- It was taking a risk, but every time we
- went home, in our relationships with our families,
- that's a risk.
- When we went to church or out in the community
- or to try and find each other.
- So sharing that perspective with people.
- How much energy that was sucking away from us.
- So we turned that into that business conversation.
- And it's really evolved into, this
- is both allowing employees to bring our head and our heart.
- Our mind and our intellect.
- Our creativity.
- And why wouldn't you want to tap into that?
- In fact, you're losing out on that if you constrain us.
- If you don't acknowledge us, or worse,
- if you are having employee groups or management
- organizations.
- Pockets of the groups that are discriminating,
- then you're dampening that.
- You're going to be holding back what we can bring.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to hone in on that a little bit.
- I'm management.
- Business owner.
- I could easily just say, "You know what?
- When you walk through my doors, you're here to do a job
- and that's it.
- I don't care about your personal life.
- Your outside life.
- You leave that outside."
- Which sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work.
- JOHN CURTIS: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to kind of discuss
- that in what you just mentioned about the importance
- of bringing your full self to the core of-- to your job,
- and trying to get that across to management.
- JOHN CURTIS: In many ways, again,
- our relationships and the ability
- to progress in the workplace is not just delivering output.
- It's, how do you be more creative than your competitors?
- It's, how do you put together ideas?
- How do you put together collaborative work groups?
- A lot of that came in the past from the old boys' network.
- There was a network or a hierarchy
- of people who connected, whether it
- was couples going to dinner or at the country club
- or on the golf course.
- Well, we weren't tapped into that,
- but neither were women or Hispanic employees
- or other groups.
- Part of what we learned was, wait.
- You're creating these glass ceilings.
- The pink ceiling.
- You know.
- We're not allowing the top talent, the top ideas,
- if we suppress this.
- So why would you want to invest in an employee
- and train an employee and look for key talent
- inside the organization, and then not take
- advantage of that?
- What if you're losing 10 or 20 percent of your employees?
- Or of an individual who's holding back,
- who's afraid to share.
- Here's an idea I had or an experience I had.
- Or here's just, at the coffee machine or the water cooler,
- here's what I did this weekend.
- Or here's what I experienced.
- I'll share mine.
- One of the most powerful things I experienced at work
- was, we had progressed some of the policies.
- But my partner and I had always dreamed of being parents.
- We started down that path.
- But we did that quietly, even that
- was a different coming out.
- There was some fear, and what if people
- tried to intercede or stop that process?
- But when I went to my management, our human resources
- groups, my peers at work, I received nothing but support.
- And even though the letter of our policies
- didn't directly support adoption benefits,
- they interpreted it and said, "You are a couple.
- You will receive that benefit just as any other couple who
- are adopting a child would."
- They had a baby shower for us, to help welcome our children
- home.
- And so, in investing, in the caring for us,
- I returned that with allegiance and diligence and a passion
- that I could bring to work and be willing to commit.
- We all have extra energy and interests or hobbies,
- and things we can devote our time and energy to.
- If we can help bring that, by opening up somebody's interest
- and supporting them and who they are
- and bringing their best, in, again,
- the heart and the mind that they can bring into work.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about meeting some of the challenges
- that you faced in getting this network up and running.
- Was there any corporate backlash?
- Was there any community backlash?
- What were some of the hurdles that you
- had to really get over?
- JOHN CURTIS: I don't want to paint it as too rosy a picture.
- I think some of the hurdles were us
- being willing to bring forward, and continue to push.
- And sometimes you have to ask three times, five times,
- ten times.
- So it was a willingness and a persistence.
- There were pockets of resistance.
- There were conservative managers.
- Individuals who felt that they could not support some
- of the things, as individuals.
- So a lot of this would evolve from a corporate or a policy
- conversation to an individual conversation.
- And again, making sure that people understood,
- how do we live out the letter of these policies?
- And how do we make sure that that is raised.
- If there was someone who was being discriminated against,
- whether it was subtle.
- You know, it may not always be overt.
- It might be just covert in opportunities given to them.
- Part of what we raised on family medical leave
- and some other policies that aren't specifically defined
- in federal or in legal statutes, we
- had to have a willingness to have
- the consideration that if my partner were to be ill.
- If someone had a family member that they needed to take
- care of.
- Well, would that be seen with the same credibility
- as a married straight couple?
- That's still going to impact what that person needs
- from the workplace.
- So there were times when we would
- run into that, where there were people
- who either were discriminated against in the workplace.
- And we were asked to help advocate.
- And so trying to raise that conversation, whether it
- be through their management or their human resources chain
- to make sure that they were treated in fairness.
- But really, for the Xerox conversations, in most cases,
- we did not run into a lot of resistance or push back.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let me ask you this then.
- You got this network off the ground.
- You're doing conversations with management.
- Events.
- Pretty much getting it up and running.
- How did you know you were succeeding?
- How did you know you were making a difference?
- JOHN CURTIS: We could see the difference
- in more people willing to be out.
- We could see more straight allies.
- And realizing that that was part of the challenge
- and the benefit we could offer as well,
- continuing that education and conversation
- for our peers, who may have a son or daughter who
- was coming out.
- And we're concerned.
- Again, that same experience.
- Over the weekend, we all have a lived experience.
- And we come into the workplace, and you can't just
- check it at the door.
- Well even our straight allies, our friends,
- had the same concerns, perhaps, that they
- experienced and needed a place to go to learn more.
- HIV awareness.
- AIDS awareness.
- In our community outreach, and the way we can do programs.
- We could see, again, if we brought the conversation
- beyond LGB to transgender issues.
- And said, we need to continue this dialogue.
- We're not done with the work yet.
- And we need to reach back, and we
- need to bring along and evolve this continuing
- conversation for equality.
- We're not finished on the journey,
- and it's not in the same place in Rochester
- or in Silicon Valley as it may be for someone in Kansas City
- or in Mississippi or in a work place
- where they may be feeling isolated or alone.
- So we started to hear some pull.
- Instead of us just pushing the message out,
- management coming to us and asking us, "Help."
- One of our things I'm very proud of,
- we've evolved a lot of partnerships
- with our other diversity caucus peer groups.
- So we've delivered workshops and training modules
- for our Women's Alliance.
- For our African-American Forum.
- We're seen as part of a diverse management development
- and leadership team, and evolving candidates.
- So we've arrived by continuing to evolve to a place
- where it really is treated on par.
- With a parity and a consideration for us.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch on that a little bit
- about the ever-evolving nature of this network.
- It's twenty years now.
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah.
- Twenty-five.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Twenty-five?
- JOHN CURTIS: Yeah, twenty-five.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Wow, OK.
- So you guys did what, like '87?
- JOHN CURTIS: '88.
- Yeah,
- KEVIN INDOVINO: '88.
- How have things evolved or changed over the years?
- What is it that you're doing today as
- opposed to when you initially started?
- JOHN CURTIS: Well, a great example,
- where the work isn't finished.
- I hate to say it's never finished,
- but Xerox acquired another company.
- We went from about seventy to eighty
- thousand employees to one hundred and thirty thousand
- employees.
- Different facilities and sites around the world
- that were brought in.
- And so part of what we activated right away
- when we heard about the acquisition
- was an offer with management.
- How do we help evolve their, you know, onboarding.
- Coming into the Xerox culture.
- How do we help them quickly understand and adopt and take
- forward?
- So we've been able to do that in the Philippines,
- in Kentucky, in India.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold on for a second.
- Did you hear the-- (unintelligible).
- I'm going to back up and ask the same question.
- A little alarm thing went off there.
- So really, again the question.
- The work continues.
- Let's pick it up from there.
- JOHN CURTIS: So, one opportunity on the work
- continuing to evolve.
- Xerox had acquired another company,
- and we went from seventy or eighty thousand employees
- to one hundred and thirty thousand
- employees, and facilities around the world.
- So we quickly reached out and partnered with our corporate
- and our human resources teams to say, "How do we
- help with the onboarding and the training
- to help the adoption of the Xerox culture and the Xerox
- policies?"
- To take that out to this new organization.
- So we've had--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Someone keeps going in and out of the door.
- JOHN CURTIS: That's OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Pick it up from there.
- JOHN CURTIS: So we were able to reach out
- through that to employees in the Philippines, transgender
- employees, in policies.
- So in many cases, it's back to the future for us.
- But we can't just rest on our laurels
- and assume that because it's comfortable here in Rochester
- or comfortable at corporate headquarters for Xerox,
- that it is comfortable.
- We have an obligation to reach back and help others.
- Whether it's transgender employees.
- Whether it's in other countries.
- Xerox has been willing, when we've
- taken them compelling arguments, to take a political stand,
- and to sign on to friend of the court briefs.
- In the Supreme Court, we're just now preparing our statement
- to support the striking down of DOMA at the Supreme Court.
- But we've done that for marriage equality
- in New York, in other states, in California.
- And so our management, our corporate social
- responsibility, really has projected beyond Xerox and out
- to the communities where we work and where we live.
- And so when we've asked them to share and stand with us,
- they have been willing to do that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to hit that point again.
- I'm gonna ask it to you this way.
- Tell me how significant it is that something
- that started here in Rochester, GALAXe,
- is now having a global impact.
- JOHN CURTIS: I am touched in the work
- I am able to do on individual situations still.
- A transgender employee who was stopped
- at the door of a workplace in the Philippines,
- but they are a Xerox employee.
- And they were brave enough to stand up and say,
- "I need help."
- And I believe that our policy says
- that we would not discriminate against someone based
- on gender identity.
- And they reached out to us, to GALAXe here in Rochester,
- and said, "Can you help me?"
- And with management and with H.R.
- we've got transition guidelines.
- And we've got support guidelines for transgender employees.
- So we were able to bring those tools not just
- from the work we've done here, but to go
- make a tangible difference in somebody's
- life in the Philippines, in India, in Kentucky,
- or in Colorado.
- When they have felt alone.
- When they've felt scared.
- But they've been brave enough to say, "I want that support.
- The promise is there that Xerox will stand with me
- and nondiscrimination will protect me.
- Will you be there, GALAXe?
- Will you be there Xerox, with me along the way?"
- I've experienced that myself.
- When my partner and I decided to get married,
- as New York State was working on marriage equality.
- The Empire State Pride Agenda came to Xerox,
- and said would you make a statement?
- We not only made a corporate statement,
- but our corporate champion, one of our senior directors,
- was willing to come here to Rochester
- and stand on the steps of City Hall with the mayor,
- and declare that Xerox, as well as the city,
- as well as all these other supporters,
- were standing for marriage equality.
- And then, when I had the chance, my partner and I
- walked up those same steps to get our marriage license
- to be married in the state of New York.
- A dream twenty-five years ago when he and I first
- met, when I first started at Xerox, when we first
- started GALAXe, we never, never could have dreamed
- would be a reality for us.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So how does it make you feel, though,
- that because of the work that you started,
- and others started, with GALAXe and changing
- a corporate attitude.
- Is now and was instrumental in changing
- political and community?
- JOHN CURTIS: I think that's part of the message.
- We all need to challenge ourselves, and take advantage
- of it and empower ourselves.
- That it can be an individual voice.
- It can be a voice from a different direction
- than is expected.
- A corporate voice can, perhaps, move faster
- than the political winds are willing,
- or that a community or society.
- And we've seen that in polling about marriage equality.
- It may move slowly, but as we live our experience,
- it's that virtuous circle.
- It kind of proves itself out.
- If you give us the chance, if you give us equality,
- we will prove the fears to be wrong.
- And if you then give us another opportunity.
- So whether it was in the employment nondiscrimination,
- if you give us the opportunity in marriage equality,
- if you give us an opportunity to be parents.
- To have loving relationships.
- To have safe communities where we can
- live as a family and own homes.
- We can prove that there's nothing
- to fear in gay or lesbian neighbors or colleagues,
- at home or at work.
- And to see that proved out, again, is a dream.
- Whether it's in how my individual family relates to us
- and is learned along the way.
- How my colleagues at work have watched my peers and all
- of us who've gone on.
- And that's one of the other things I think we're proud of.
- There are many Xerox people who've either retired or gone
- on to other companies, but have taken that experience out,
- and are seeding that in advocacy and in pushing boundaries
- elsewhere.
- So from Rochester, that diversity
- continues to spread that innovation and creativity comes
- from here and has gone out to make such a difference.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, let's jump ship.
- Talk to me about your experience on the day
- that you heard New York State passed gay marriage
- legislation.
- JOHN CURTIS: The day that it passed was surreal.
- It felt like all of a sudden that acceleration.
- The vote was going to actually progress,
- and yet there always was a fear.
- Would it get stalled?
- Would someone intervene to block us?
- To discriminate against us yet again?
- Or to tell us, maybe not yet, or maybe the environment's
- not right.
- And so all through that evening as it continued to progress,
- I recall we had a rally right across the street
- from the Xerox headquarters in downtown Washington Square.
- Went over to the rally, both as an individual
- but wanted to be there, representing Xerox
- and GALAXe across the street.
- And so I stopped in at that rally,
- and then watching that night as first the local media
- was covering.
- And then watching CNN and others start
- to broadcast live from the state assembly chambers.
- And see that moving.
- And then for us, it was stunning.
- I'll actually go to the next state,
- is what was more meaningful.
- That first day of realizing this was our new reality.
- It might be challenged, but we had accomplished it.
- We had accomplished it not just through the courts,
- but through our representatives.
- Representing we the people.
- They stood up on our behalf, and were
- willing to represent LGBT persons and the love we share,
- and recognize that with the equality we deserve.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So if you could, just
- talk to me a little bit about the experience of walking down
- the aisle.
- And you decided to do it in a church environment.
- JOHN CURTIS: We did.
- That's always been part of my partner David's
- and my relationship.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Turn the alarm off.
- JOHN CURTIS: So our decision to get married
- was important to include a church
- or religious aspect to it, as well
- as our community and family.
- So it's always been part of our relationship.
- So the day after marriage equality passed,
- David's mom actually happened to be visiting
- and was watching our children.
- We went out to dinner with some friends,
- and when we came home, that evening before we went back
- into the house, we proposed and decided to get married.
- And then started looking at the plans
- and how we wanted to plan this commitment and the celebration
- of that commitment.
- And so we did want to include church.
- We found a space at the Colgate Divinity School in the chapel.
- And had our friends, both sides of our family, our parents,
- our siblings were there.
- Friends, both work colleagues, as well as personal friends,
- family members.
- Our children were there, and part of the celebration.
- And part of the blessing was not just our relationship,
- but our family.
- And so it's hard to say how meaningful
- that was to have that opportunity
- celebrated and recognized, with the blessing of faith
- and the blessing of our community and friends.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just let me review my notes here
- and see if I forgot anything.
- I think we've covered it.
- JOHN CURTIS: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- JOHN CURTIS: Very cool.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well thank you very much.
- JOHN CURTIS: You'll find snippets that are articulate,
- or somewhat.