Video Interview, John Noble, August 2, 2012

  • CREW: I am rolling, sir.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright.
  • I am trying to figure out what decade do we start--
  • sixties?
  • Were you out and about in the sixties?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, I came out in '69.
  • Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's begin there then,
  • late sixties, early seventies.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What with life--
  • were you in Rochester then?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yes, in the summer, but I was in graduate school.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Because, we're trying
  • to focus mostly on Rochester.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But late sixties, early seventies,
  • just talk to me generally, what was life for a gay man?
  • And a gay man who's really just starting to come out, even.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, pretty scary because there weren't
  • many resources available.
  • The incredible thing is the guy that
  • brought me out was married to my old girlfriend.
  • And they lived in Beacon Hill in Boston.
  • So that was kind of an experience.
  • And I stayed with them on weekend trips to Boston.
  • Or when I was doing research on my masters
  • or doctoral dissertation I would sometimes stay with them.
  • But really did not have a good understanding
  • of what it meant to be a gay man.
  • The stereotypes and the issues around it
  • were pretty negative and really quite a problem.
  • And I have to say I was caused a lot of problems by it.
  • By that I mean, the issues that came
  • up were one of my own personal self
  • respect and dignity that really made it difficult. Eventually,
  • I found resources in graduate school
  • up in Maine and a lot of supportive people up there.
  • But again, that was a very small community and really pretty
  • close to the chest in terms of who they were, what they were,
  • and where we were all headed.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about Rochester.
  • When did you become a permanent resident of Rochester?
  • JOHN NOBLE: OK, I came back to Rochester
  • after I finished my doctorate.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, what year are we talking?
  • JOHN NOBLE: We're talking '75, '76.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so what was going on here?
  • What was going on in Rochester in terms of the gay community?
  • There was already, by that time, there
  • were some gay activism, gay groups, right?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yes.
  • The first gay event I went to in Rochester
  • was the famous Fourth of July dance
  • that I think you've probably heard many people talk about
  • that they were there.
  • This was, I think, in 1970 right after Stonewall.
  • And that really gave me hope that I
  • could come back to Rochester and find a supportive community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me about the dance.
  • Where was it?
  • JOHN NOBLE: It was at the U of R in the old Todd Union.
  • And there were lots of lesbians, lots of young gay men
  • that were mostly students.
  • I don't know if they were graduate students
  • or undergraduates at the U of R. But I felt a camaraderie
  • with them.
  • And there were a number of people
  • that I've met over the years who were there, or at least
  • claimed to have been there.
  • But that seemed to have been a turning point in Rochester
  • for the community to recognize that they
  • could make a go of it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you get the sense
  • that this was really a community dance?
  • Or was it more just for the U of R students and--
  • JOHN NOBLE: Oh, no.
  • This was part of the problem that the U of R had,
  • that it was community people with some University people.
  • And over the next several years, the University
  • made an effort to get rid of the group
  • because they saw it being invaded by community people.
  • So you have to read into that what you want.
  • But if you've been involved in a University community,
  • they're pretty jealous of their prerogatives
  • and don't want people who aren't part
  • of that close knit community taking part
  • in the benefit to the community without paying
  • the price, whatever that might be.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So when you came to Rochester permanently
  • in '75, what were you finding there?
  • How did you infiltrate yourself into the gay community?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, several things,
  • I met Mary Lou Wells and her partner, Paula Smith,
  • and got active with the Alliance, Gay Brotherhood,
  • and also was involved in the organization
  • of Dignity-Integrity, which was a religious group.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I'm going to stop you just for a second
  • because you have this of playing with your beard when you talk.
  • So if you can be conscious of putting your hand down--
  • JOHN NOBLE: OK.
  • Alright, you don't want to watch me play--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It's cute a couple of times.
  • But throughout the whole conversation,
  • a little distracting.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Alright.
  • OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's pick it up from meeting Mary Lou Wells
  • and getting involved with-- what was
  • the Gay Alliance at the time.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yeah, it had just transitioned
  • from the Gay Brotherhood and the LRC, the Lesbian Resource
  • Center.
  • And then the Alliance--
  • and in those days, the budget for the whole organization
  • was like two thousand dollars a year.
  • Now that's less than a couple of weeks of the organization's
  • budget now.
  • But we had a good time.
  • And we built community and really felt
  • like we were going to make progress.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let me pick it up from there then.
  • What was driving you intellectually, emotionally
  • about-- what was driving you to get involved politically,
  • as an activist?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yeah.
  • Well, the things that motivated me
  • was the fact that I knew we could make some changes.
  • It was the fact that we didn't have our basic rights,
  • that we did not have full civil rights, that we were constantly
  • derided and belittled and diminished
  • as individuals and as a group.
  • And so we moved in those directions.
  • And I worked on projects that I thought
  • would move the agenda forward.
  • And it apparently did because I wrote the first CETA
  • grant, which clearly showed the community that there
  • was a need for certain things to happen.
  • Even our enemies denounced what we
  • were doing because they couldn't understand why we
  • needed to have a credit union.
  • Well, in those days, unless you were deep in the closet,
  • you'd have a hard time getting a mortgage for a house.
  • So I said, well, if we have a credit union,
  • we can give ourselves mortgages.
  • So that was the type of thing-- and that made people
  • like lonesome Charlie Schiano and the City Council very
  • upset.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's Charlie now?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yes.
  • Yeah, he's still turning over.
  • But those were the kinds of things
  • that we had to deal with.
  • But I clearly wrote it and put stuff
  • in that was going to focus on developing our rights
  • and giving us a better community to live in.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, set it up for me as someone
  • who doesn't know anything about CETA or what it is.
  • JOHN NOBLE: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What is CETA?
  • Why was it important for you to apply for this grant?
  • JOHN NOBLE: OK.
  • CETA was the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act.
  • There was, as there is now, a lack of jobs.
  • But in those days the federal government
  • reacted more positively than they have
  • recently to economic downturn.
  • And they set up this jobs program, much of it
  • based on the WPA of the depression era.
  • And so we put a grant application
  • together for four to six jobs with very clear guidelines
  • as to what they were going to accomplish
  • and what they were going to do in the course of that year.
  • And the city didn't quite know what
  • to do when they got the application because they
  • couldn't find anything wrong with it.
  • And the United Way, which was supposed
  • to administer the damn thing, threw up their hands
  • and walked away because their base,
  • which was pretty much the right wing thugs in Rochester--
  • and God knows there were as many then as there are now,
  • weren't going to have it.
  • And so the next step, the city had to find someone else
  • to take up the campaign, to run the CETA
  • program for small agencies.
  • And so Bill Johnson of the Urban League came forward.
  • And he stepped up to the plate and really showed
  • what needed to be done and did a excellent job in undoing
  • the damage done by the United Way.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Was this a turning point
  • for the Gay Alliance in terms of becoming visible
  • in the community?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yes.
  • Yes, up to that point there were probably
  • a lot of people who didn't know what the Gay Alliance was.
  • But there was no one in Rochester or Monroe County
  • after the big CETA controversy who
  • hadn't heard of the Gay Alliance and what they were up to
  • and what they were trying to do and what their agenda was.
  • So there was a big change.
  • And it also forced the Alliance to really professionalize.
  • Before that, it was primarily a volunteer organization
  • with very limited resources.
  • Now, all of a sudden, they had a staff to manage
  • and really needed to become much more professional.
  • And over the last thirty years, they have continued to do that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: In this course of time with the CETA
  • funding and other things, you kind of took it upon yourself
  • to be almost a community watchdog of local government
  • and even state government.
  • In regards to what was being done
  • and what was not being done for gay communities and gay rights,
  • talk to me a little bit about what you were noticing out
  • there, what you were seeing out there, and more importantly,
  • what were you trying to change?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, there were very few
  • openly gay elected officials.
  • There were a tremendous number of closeted ones,
  • I'm not going to mention names today.
  • But Rochester, at one point had three successive,
  • shall we say, professional bachelor mayors that
  • lived downtown in hotels or lived with their mama
  • well into their fifties.
  • And so we really needed to shake the community by its roots
  • and start moving forward.
  • The issue was, Rochester had always
  • had a reputation of being an open and accessible community,
  • but people weren't aware of what that really meant
  • and needed to be reminded.
  • There had been a number of gay members of the City Council.
  • At that point, in the seventies, we had Tim Mains,
  • but he was not the first and he has subsequently not
  • been the last.
  • But he is probably the most well known.
  • And the irony of his election was that people, they rate--
  • the right wing did a smear campaign on him
  • and really tried to defeat him when he ran for the first time.
  • And the person who was next to him in line,
  • they went to court to try to find eight votes for her,
  • and they couldn't find the eight votes, so Tim won the election.
  • The irony of it is there's more than idle speculation
  • that she was a closet lesbian.
  • So they were going to get a gay person one way or the other.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: How did you, over the course of time,
  • how have you seen things change in regards to--
  • JOHN NOBLE: Oh, yeah.
  • I mean, the fact that there's now a openly gay City
  • Councilman still, and when he was elected,
  • it was a big yawn, the fact that he was gay.
  • Back when Tim was running, they talked
  • about self-avowed homosexual, whatever
  • that was, and really tried to gin up
  • the hysteria against him.
  • There have been openly gay County Legislators.
  • There have been openly gay town officials, town councilman,
  • and the ones that are deep in the closet tend
  • to be Republicans.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm going to go back
  • a little bit about CETA funding because that was under Ryan's
  • administration, right?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Um-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can we talk a little bit
  • about Mayor Ryan and his whole response to,
  • not only the CETA funding, but just really the--
  • JOHN NOBLE: --who are the gays and where did they come from?
  • Yes.
  • Tom Ryan was a good Irish Catholic boy
  • from the city, former US marine, and this was all
  • foreign to him.
  • And he had a wonderful Vice Mayor, Midge Costanza.
  • I don't need to say anything more to people who know her.
  • She went on to the White House to be Jimmy Carter's liaison
  • for Public Affairs.
  • So it was Midge who really had to teach
  • Tom Ryan who the gays were, where they came from,
  • and where they lived.
  • And the irony was, at that point,
  • Tom didn't realize that most of the gays lived in his district.
  • He was only a district councilman.
  • He was not an at large councilman.
  • Tim was elected city wide, so he had
  • no one particular neighborhood to be responsible for.
  • He had the whole city.
  • And so Midge really educated Tom, and Tom came around.
  • It was a little slow at times, Tom also
  • had to listen to-- there were crazed Democrats
  • on the council then who weren't too
  • happy that the gay community was starting
  • to be publicly visible, and really made
  • it difficult for him.
  • But he navigated that minefield very well.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Still, with CETA funding,
  • I want to just touch a little bit more
  • about Bill Johnson and the Urban League, and then step forward.
  • Because we kind of know why he stepped up to the plate,
  • because there was money involved.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Um-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But then in the administration of those funds,
  • what was the relationship like with the Urban
  • League in administering those funds,
  • and the relationship between the Gay Alliance and the Urban
  • League?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, as far as I remember, it was good.
  • And the staff that Bill Johnson had at the Urban League
  • were open and accessible to the community,
  • so I don't think there were any great problems.
  • And I know that, for this history,
  • you will be talking to Bill Johnson,
  • so his role is pretty clear.
  • And granted, an administrator of a agency like the Urban League
  • is always going to come up when there's money.
  • But they all had to recognize that there was
  • nothing wrong with the grant.
  • They couldn't criticize the content or the plans
  • or what we were proposing to do.
  • There was nothing out of the ordinary,
  • so they had to give us the money.
  • And if he hadn't given us the money,
  • we could have gone to court over that.
  • And that's the last thing they wanted,
  • the city, or the Urban League, or any of these agencies.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's about more political activism
  • and involvement.
  • JOHN NOBLE: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's move beyond CETA grant.
  • What was the next adventures that you started setting
  • into-- political caucus--
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yeah, the political caucus was a--
  • Do you want me to turn that off?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I think so.
  • Yeah, if you want to turn it off if it's interrupting
  • you, or silence it.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Do you know how to silence the damn thing?
  • I don't.
  • Come on.
  • Here, that should--
  • OK, I'm going to have a little water.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • So yeah, I just want to kind of move then beyond CETA funding,
  • we got through that.
  • What next got left on your plate?
  • JOHN NOBLE: The next thing was looking
  • at candidates for local office.
  • We did a survey of candidates for City Council and the County
  • Legislature and those types of offices.
  • We also started to look at the State Legislature
  • and Congressional Candidates.
  • Some of them were startled to get surveys
  • from an organized gay organization
  • and they didn't seem to quite know how to handle it.
  • I remember Charlie Rangel wrote us a nice note
  • saying it was the most professional survey that he'd
  • seen in a long time.
  • And he was a new Congressman in those days.
  • And we did it for the statewide congressional offices.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What were you hoping to gain?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Visibility.
  • For me personally, get some experience
  • in dealing with the political issues, and also
  • to look at ways that we could strengthen
  • our own community here.
  • We had a number of west side crackpots running
  • for local office, there's no other way to describe them.
  • And they really, they would write
  • the most virulent comments on the survey and return
  • it like they were doing just fine.
  • And clearly, we knew these people shouldn't be elected
  • and we should make it clear.
  • And it got to the point that, like today,
  • we have this AIDS remembrance garden in Highland Park,
  • well I remember lobbying two members of the County
  • Legislature, one of them said, "No way because Bob--"
  • or not Bob--
  • Cook-- the Conservative Party head--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Tom.
  • JOHN NOBLE: "Tom Cook won't stand for it."
  • And the other one said, "Well, if that's what you guys want,
  • that's fine with me."
  • And these were not--
  • I knew these guys were not gay, but I needed their votes
  • to get that AIDS remember garden passed.
  • And one of them, I think we got the vote, and the other,
  • wouldn't have voted for it if his life depended on it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What does it say about Rochester
  • as a community in it's response to gay rights and the way
  • that we respond to the activism that's coming out
  • of the gay community?
  • JOHN NOBLE: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Are we any different than anyone else?
  • Or are we a little bit above board?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, there is a book,
  • was written in the fifties, called Smugtown.
  • And the son of the author is still with us.
  • Curt Gerling was the author, Bill Gerling is the son.
  • And Bill has always been supportive of the community.
  • That book was written before there
  • was an active gay community.
  • Kurt knew there were gay people in Rochester
  • but didn't want to make much about it.
  • But there was an attitude in this town of live and let live.
  • And that's something that goes back to the early days.
  • I mean, if you look at Susan B, you look at Rauschenbusch,
  • you look at Frederick Douglass, these people
  • were, in the eyes of many, were troublemakers.
  • But they always had great respect in the community.
  • You look at stories of Frederick Douglass
  • when he came back to Rochester from his days in Washington,
  • he was always known as Fred Douglass.
  • Today, who calls him Fred?
  • But he was well-respected in the town.
  • And he had a huge funeral.
  • And the newspapers back in the 1890s actually
  • ran photographs of the church with the mourners all in there.
  • And that was unheard of in the 1890s,
  • to have funereal pictures in the newspaper.
  • But I would say that these folks, spokesmen and agitators,
  • were really alive and really got this community
  • thinking about who they were and where they were going.
  • People may not have agreed with them,
  • but they weren't considered dangerous.
  • And so it was the live and let live attitude that prevailed.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Why--
  • I'm not sure why or how, I'm not sure how to ask this.
  • But why did it become such a passion for you
  • to become so involved on the political level,
  • on the activism level, as an activist for the gay community?
  • Where did that passion come from?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, I've always--
  • when I took on an issue, I stuck with it.
  • And today, I see the results of a lot of the stuff
  • that I did over the years when I wasn't getting
  • any support from people in the community,
  • and really just kept persevering,
  • and now we have Smithsonian Institution coming
  • to Rochester to receive our historic records.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So my next question
  • is then, what do you think your greatest impact has been
  • over the years in regards to the work
  • that you have done for the community?
  • JOHN NOBLE: I'd say, my consistency,
  • if they avoided me this year, they
  • were going to hear from me next year.
  • And that was something they could be assured of.
  • And really I never let it be said
  • that I didn't follow through.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: At some point, you completely step away
  • from political activism and gay activism.
  • But you really became very much an advocate for history.
  • This is why this whole project got started.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Why?
  • Why is history--
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, I have my PhD in American History.
  • And also I have been an archivist.
  • And to be an archivist, you have to want
  • to preserve the records of the community,
  • or whatever group that you want to eventually look at.
  • I have no particular interest to write
  • the history of the gay community for the last forty years.
  • I may be involved in assisting in the writing of that.
  • But I need to know that I did my part
  • to see that those records are available for those people who
  • come along and want to write that history.
  • And really that, I think, is the important element for me.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So when history looks back
  • at the community of Rochester and the gay community
  • of Rochester, what do you want them to know most about us,
  • who we are?
  • JOHN NOBLE: It's a diverse community.
  • It's a community that great care and compassion for those
  • that have less fortunate--
  • it politically would stand up for the beliefs that we've had,
  • individually and collectively.
  • And I think those are worthwhile concepts and ideas to stand
  • for.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: A similar question,
  • when history and people look back at John Noble,
  • and his life, what do you want them to know most about who
  • you are and what you've been doing?
  • JOHN NOBLE: I'd say it's an open book.
  • I haven't really been concerned about that.
  • It's nice to know that--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, what do you want
  • them to know most about you?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Bill and I started a project, I stayed with it.
  • And I built the city archives up so it has survived without me.
  • I trained my successor and seems to be going along
  • quite well now.
  • It's not the greatest or the hugest part of city government,
  • but it is an integral part.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that brings up
  • an interesting question, because I
  • know you've done some recent research in the city
  • archives, particularly on gay issues and police raids and all
  • that stuff, not a lot of information there.
  • JOHN NOBLE: No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What are your thoughts on that?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, I've talked to other people,
  • my contemporaries, who I've also showed them
  • where this stuff was and told them, look at it,
  • and they found the same conclusions,
  • that there isn't much.
  • And I think it's fairly safe to say
  • there weren't a lot of raids.
  • The raids we know about were more
  • contemporary, contemporary meaning
  • within the last fifty years.
  • The people who did that, I don't know
  • what they thought they were going to survive or really--
  • but it clearly was a less than successful--
  • they would raid a bar, they'd take down license plates--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you ever in a bar that was raided?
  • Did you ever witness any of this?
  • JOHN NOBLE: No, but I would hear stories.
  • And in other cities, I've been in clubs
  • where they've been raided.
  • But Rochester, generally it's that live and let
  • live attitude.
  • Now I don't know if the bar owners or club
  • owners were paying off the police or the elected
  • officials, but I did not see much
  • in terms of those kinds of responses.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, looking forward,
  • what do you think our challenges are now?
  • What do we still have to fight for?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, two years ago I moved to Massachusetts
  • with my spouse.
  • And I have come to the conclusion
  • that, whether it's Rochester or the Boston area,
  • now that marriage has passed--
  • the decriminalization passed a long time ago,
  • but I think people thought, well if we get marriage,
  • there will be nothing else to do.
  • But there are a lot of unresolved issues
  • that need to be looked at.
  • There is a need for education.
  • There is a need for developing new tools
  • to educate the community, the broader community
  • and the gay community.
  • And really that, I think, is going
  • to be where our greatest need is going to be.
  • I don't know what the future looks like.
  • Right now, I'd say I'm not happy with what I see,
  • that people are just kind of disappearing into the woodwork.
  • And that, I don't look on as an optimistic approach.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Explain that.
  • What do you mean by that?
  • JOHN NOBLE: OK.
  • Well, rather than staying involved,
  • they're just disappearing back--
  • people don't necessarily go to the bars,
  • they don't necessarily--
  • they may go camping or they may go to a resort somewhere,
  • but in terms of, in their own community,
  • I don't see much going on, whether it's
  • in Rochester or in Eastern Massachusetts.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Could that be one of those,
  • be careful of what you wished for, kind of things?
  • Here we were fighting for our rights
  • to be able to assimilate ourselves into mainstream
  • society, and now here we are.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Now, here we are.
  • Now, what's next?
  • Possibly, but I think we have to maintain our vigilance,
  • maintain our presence, and remind people we're still here
  • and we're not going to take the kind of crap that--
  • now this is the liberal part of the country,
  • there are many parts of this country where there are still
  • passing virulently anti-gay laws or draconian measures that
  • are on issues of arrest and entrapment.
  • Those communities are going to have
  • to work on, at the federal level,
  • there's a great deal of progress being done.
  • One of the two major parties, I don't
  • think I need to spell out which one,
  • is going to probably include equal marriage
  • rights in their national platform this year.
  • That will be a big step forward, but it's not the final step.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Over the course of your activism
  • and your work, again, whether it's
  • your activism or your work as an historian, whatever,
  • what are you most proud of?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, the fact that I
  • was elected ten times to the New York State Democratic Committee
  • and I was able to, shall we say, short circuit
  • some strange things that the Democrats wanted to do over
  • the years that would have, I think,
  • been detrimental to the community.
  • But I would say that the fact that I
  • was on the state committee for twenty years
  • and was really able to interact with people in New York City
  • and other parts of the state.
  • I was, for a long time, the senior openly gay state
  • committeeman in New York.
  • There were others, but in New York City,
  • they wouldn't last long.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Over those twenty years,
  • talk to me about, again, some of the things that you were
  • seeing, some of the things that you were identifying as,
  • oh, this is not good.
  • And what were you doing to really try and kind of open
  • their eyes or change their opinions?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, building coalitions with other state
  • committee people really to short circuit these, shall we say--
  • I don't want to impugn the motives of the people who
  • are proposing these things, but I
  • think suffice to say there was a lot of latent
  • homophobia in their proposals.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you site an example of a proposal that
  • may have been shut down?
  • What were these people trying to do?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well that's just it, I don't know.
  • I'd have to go back and research some of it,
  • but it was a number of years ago that they
  • would propose this stuff and really we
  • needed to speak out against it.
  • I mean, it got to the point that after they realized
  • there were openly gay state committee members,
  • the stuff they were proposing, that they proposed to the state
  • legislature to take up, was going to fall on deaf ears.
  • And so they backed off.
  • But it was a number of small things
  • that just were like, where are you guys coming from?
  • And as I say, once they realized we were there
  • and we weren't going away, then they backed off on this stuff,
  • then they found other scapegoats.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: From a historical point of view,
  • why is a project like this so important?
  • Why should we care?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yep.
  • Well, for the last several years I
  • have been preaching the gospel of preserve our heritage
  • and bring it forward and be proud of who we are
  • and what we've accomplished with limited, very
  • limited resources.
  • And it's hard to pin point it down to one small item,
  • but I think those are some of the issues
  • that we need to look at, or continue to look at.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But having a documentary,
  • having archives sent to the Smithsonian--
  • JOHN NOBLE: --or Cornell.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --or Cornell, or wherever--
  • to be permanently housed somewhere, again,
  • what is the significance of that?
  • Why are future generations going to really care
  • about what we did here in the little town of Rochester?
  • JOHN NOBLE: I'll give you a very specific example.
  • When we first sent the records to Cornell,
  • anytime anyone wanted to use them,
  • they initially needed, through the archive staff
  • at the Goodstein Archives, contact me
  • as the representative for the Alliance.
  • I was amazed at the number of graduate students
  • doing master's and doctoral research in gay history.
  • You don't always know where these people
  • are going to come from.
  • But once it was explained that they
  • were all legitimate graduate students and not
  • some crazed shooter going to come and shoot us all,
  • there was no problem in approving access.
  • That type of issue no longer is of concern,
  • the crazy shooters are out there, but that's not a--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You talk a little bit about us
  • kind of disappearing off of the face of our community.
  • We have this young generation coming up behind us
  • who are just interested in connecting to each other
  • through their phones.
  • And they're not out there.
  • What would you be advising these young kids as to what
  • they should be looking out for, what they should be doing
  • to better their own lives?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, that's an issue
  • that I've looked at for probably the last twenty,
  • twenty-five years.
  • I've been in New York City at some of these clubs.
  • I don't even think these guys who are trying
  • to hook up realize they're gay.
  • They're just looking for the next hookup.
  • Unfortunately, that's been an issue.
  • I think we just need to have those resources available.
  • The time will come when something or someone will shake
  • the ground and those folks are going
  • to realize they've got to stand up and we've just got to say,
  • here's the stuff you've got to look at first before you decide
  • to stand up.
  • You don't need to reinvent the wheel.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Anything that you
  • were hoping to talk about that I didn't know enough to ask you?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Let me see that list again.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean anything about gay bars and bath
  • houses and stuff--
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well you know, at one time--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --I don't think we really
  • need to get into that.
  • JOHN NOBLE: At one time, there were
  • three bathhouses in Rochester.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Who cares?
  • JOHN NOBLE: And about ten gay bars--
  • I have to put my glasses on to read,
  • the City Attorney was only following orders
  • when he harassed the Alliance on property taxes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Oh, let's talk about that.
  • Let's get rid of that paper.
  • Yeah, forget about that.
  • Let's talk about the issue about the Gay Alliance
  • and their property tax.
  • Tell me that story.
  • What was that all about and how did it get resolved?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well, it seems that Mayor Ryan was annoyed, pissed
  • off, at Councilman Tim Mains.
  • And so when the Alliance bought the Elton Street property,
  • they denied--
  • and this was the first property that the Alliance had bought,
  • before we had always rented.
  • They said--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Who said?
  • JOHN NOBLE: The City Assessor and the City Corporation
  • Council, right up to the Mayor, "Well, you guys
  • don't fit the criteria for tax exemption."
  • And after, there was no negotiating
  • with the City on that.
  • And we kind of had a suspicion of why they were being such--
  • I don't want to say the word, but you get the picture.
  • We voted to take the City to court.
  • One of our board members was an attorney,
  • she went on to become a city court Judge.
  • I think she's still on the court.
  • But she cleaned the City's clock.
  • And the Judge said, "Not only did they meet the criteria,
  • this is finally a resolution of the longstanding--
  • what is the third pillar of tax exemption.
  • They had educational, religious, and the cultural things."
  • And we pointed out all the things
  • we were doing in terms of community based projects.
  • And the Judge, who was a conservative Republican,
  • backed us and fined the City for malicious denial of the tax
  • exemption.
  • And so Lou Cash's position always was, "Oh,
  • I was only following orders."
  • He looked like Colonel Klink when he would say that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What was their initial argument?
  • JOHN NOBLE: That we didn't meet the criteria for tax exemption,
  • we didn't hold classes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You didn't hold classes?
  • JOHN NOBLE: Yeah, we didn't teach people how to be gay.
  • I don't know.
  • But it was not a very solid argument
  • and the Judge saw through it.
  • And the decision was so monumental
  • that the daily legal paper in New York City
  • had a front page story about it.
  • This was a landmark decision coming out of Rochester
  • involving not for profits and, in this case,
  • a gay organization.
  • So we cleaned their clocks.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Set it up for me.
  • Because this was not only a gay issue for the Gay Alliance,
  • but if the city had won, they could
  • have taken the exemption away from a number of non-profits.
  • JOHN NOBLE: That is correct.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me a little bit about that scenario.
  • JOHN NOBLE: We were being very parochial in our interests,
  • we weren't caring what happened to others,
  • we wanted our tax exemption.
  • And really we had our own attorney who took the case
  • and she just demolished their argument.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But did other people in the community,
  • particularly other non-profits, have
  • any idea what was going on?
  • Did they have any idea that this could also impact them?
  • JOHN NOBLE: I don't think so.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • JOHN NOBLE: I think that was beyond the pale for most
  • of them.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yet again, was that yet
  • another turning point for the Gay Alliance as far as--
  • JOHN NOBLE: Oh, yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --community.
  • And after that, did we ever have any trouble
  • with the city anymore?
  • JOHN NOBLE: No more.
  • No more.
  • Ryan realized he had to make peace with Tim.
  • And the Mayor was kind of--
  • he could be very petty at times, but he was a wonderful man.
  • I mean, I have no complaints about him.
  • He just, at times--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, you had to work for him.
  • JOHN NOBLE: Well I didn't work directly for him,
  • but I worked in the City Hall.
  • And he was always a good guy, but boy, when
  • he'd get on a tear, watch out.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, good--