Video Interview, John W. Grace and Nelson Baldo, August 16, 2012
- CREW: OK, and good.
- I'll get sound levels from the start.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, John, first and foremost,
- when we put your name on screen, give us the correct spelling
- of your first and last name, and how
- you want it to read on screen.
- JOHN W. GRACE: OK, it's John, J-O-H-N W. Grace, G-R-A-C-E.
- W's the middle initial, of course.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And Nelson?
- NELSON BALDO: Nelson, N-E-L-S-O-N, Baldo, B-A-L-D-O.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Great.
- The first thing I'm going to start out
- is just kind of talk about what it's
- like to be young and gay in--
- I think it was what, 1960s, your kind of coming of age?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, well--
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- JOHN W. GRACE: I mean, that's when I came to Rochester,
- was in the sixties.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I forget, how about how old
- were you during that?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I would have just
- gotten out of the service, so I would have been twenty-one.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's just start there
- in the 1960s for both of you.
- We'll start with you first, John.
- Gay life in the 1960s-- what was there?
- And what was available to people back then?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well really, the only thing
- that was going on in the 1960s and the gay life
- was the gay bars.
- But the gay bars at that time were all
- owned by straight people, and mostly by mafia-type people.
- I mean, there were no gay bar owners.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But how was that for you socially?
- JOHN W. GRACE: There was no social life for gay people
- outside of the bar.
- And I mean, the bars were pickup places, is what they were.
- But other than that, there was absolutely nothing
- to do to socialize.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you actively seeking
- other alternatives to meet people socially?
- JOHN W. GRACE: There was no way to do that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No way to do that.
- NELSON BALDO: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, what about you?
- Where were things at for you in the 1960s?
- NELSON BALDO: Well, I guess it was about the same,
- that that was the only focal point for gay people at all.
- It was pretty repressive.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that was my next question to you--
- JOHN W. GRACE: See, that's where we were very lucky.
- Because I got out of the service when
- I was twenty-one, after four years in the Air Force.
- And Nelson had got out of the service just the year before.
- NELSON BALDO: Right.
- JOHN W. GRACE: And we met almost probably,
- within me being in Rochester a month.
- We met, and we just have always been together.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, you were both of you
- kind of lucky you found each other.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Very lucky.
- NELSON BALDO: Yes.
- JOHN W. GRACE: And then what happened
- is we had an apartment and all that.
- We had a circle of friends.
- And really, what happened is the way you socialized in that most
- through entertaining in your home.
- People came over for dinner, or just
- to hang out and listen to music and like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The answer's from both of you
- here, because I know you both had kind of had
- similar experiences.
- We'll step back a little bit.
- Talk to me about being gay and in the military
- in the late fifties, sixties.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Think something most people do not
- understand about that period of time in the military
- is that if they found out you were gay,
- the first thing that would happen
- is they would give you something called a Section 8 discharge.
- Now they didn't even have to catch you
- in a sexual act or anything.
- But they would give you a Section 8 discharge.
- And if you got a Section 8 discharge,
- you simply did not work again in your life.
- I mean, if you did, you were relegated to jobs
- that nobody wanted.
- Because this would always come up at job interviews.
- And as soon as it did, the only thing
- that a Section 8 meant was it meant you were queer.
- And nobody hired gay people.
- That's the way it was.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- But I always thought it was an open secret.
- I mean, where I was stationed, everyone knew who was gay.
- I mean, I'm sure they all knew I was gay,
- and I knew who else was gay.
- But you really didn't do anything about it, at least
- in the service.
- And outside of that, I don't know?
- Did you ever go to-- you went to gay bars in England.
- JOHN W. GRACE: I was in England, and I did go to gay bars.
- And as a matter of fact, that is the first time
- I ever really made a connection with a man other
- than a sexual relationship.
- I met a guy, he was English.
- And I fell madly in love with him.
- And we spent probably about a year together.
- And then I got discharged and came home.
- And that experience-- when I got discharged,
- I promised myself that I would never again
- allow anybody to intimidate me because of my sexuality.
- I mean, that was just a promise that I made to myself.
- And I've lived by that to this day.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to jump way ahead, which I usually
- don't do it in an interview.
- But this is actually a good moment to ask this question.
- When Clinton signed off on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy,
- do you remember that day?
- And what were your feelings about that?
- JOHN W. GRACE: I thought it was a cop out.
- I thought, why are you doing this?
- Why not just legalize gays in the military?
- Of course, having spent--
- and same for you--
- all that time in Europe, they treated it very differently
- in the European military.
- NELSON BALDO: Right.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Because it was non-issue.
- I mean, it was simply non-issue.
- NELSON BALDO: And that had changed already.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- NELSON BALDO: I think for the Brits and--
- JOHN W. GRACE: Oh, for the Brits, definitely.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And the Israeli army.
- JOHN W. GRACE: The Germans.
- NELSON BALDO: Right, yeah.
- It just made no sense.
- But it was a step.
- Everything's a little step.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- OK, well, let's jump back.
- You're in Rochester, 1960s.
- Not much to do but go out to bars,
- maybe have some friends over at the house.
- At some point-- and you specifically, John, I think--
- got involved with the university and the Gay Liberation Front.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- I mean, what really happened was in the sixties, Stonewall.
- And when Stonewall happened, it sort of opened your eyes up
- to like, well, we really don't have
- to put up with this anymore.
- And we got talking, small groups of us amongst our so friends,
- like Danny Scipione, I can tell you.
- Buron Borg.
- We all got talking amongst ourselves,
- saying well, now, why isn't something
- happening in Rochester?
- And we started formulating the idea.
- I mean, we went to Danny's house,
- and we started formulating the idea of some kind of gay group.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I've got that note coming up.
- JOHN W. GRACE: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But I don't want to pass
- on this, just some other notes I'm just looking at here first.
- Again, about gay life in Rochester in the 1960s
- and seventies, I want to talk about some of the things
- that you guys witnessed and experienced, police
- tactics and policies.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
- There used to be a place called Martha's.
- Or maybe it was Dick's 43.
- They were always changing the name back and forth.
- NELSON BALDO: I think it was Dick's 43 back there.
- JOHN W. GRACE: At that time?
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- JOHN W. GRACE: It was the Gruttadauria family.
- And the police would come.
- And they would come in, and they would unplug the jukebox.
- Because everybody-- the guys--
- would have been dancing.
- But as soon as you knew the police were coming,
- everybody stopped dancing.
- They would unplug the jukebox.
- And I mean, this was very open.
- They would just go to the bar, and the bartender
- would open the cash register, get some money out, give it
- to the police officer.
- He would walk over, plug the jukebox back in, and walk out.
- And it was a common occurrence.
- And to go a little further with that--
- because something else interesting happened.
- Eventually, the gay bars got owned by gay people.
- And when that happened, there was no more of the police
- coming in and doing that.
- But instead, what the police started doing was coming in,
- and they could tell who was closeted
- and who wasn't and that.
- And they would arrest--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought until the squeaky wheel
- goes by.
- (pause in recording)
- CREW: Sit back there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's take it back a little further.
- Talk about that transition that you
- made from gay bars being owned by heterosexuals
- to finally becoming gay-owned.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Right.
- There became a point where the gay bars
- got owned by gay people.
- And one of the first one's was Jim's, and it was on--
- that's what?
- NELSON BALDO: Sam's Square.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- Yeah.
- The square there.
- And what the police then started doing-- because they couldn't
- come in and unplug the jukebox, because nobody
- was paying any attention to the police then.
- They'd come through the door, and everybody'd
- continue to dance, and we'd whistle at them
- and everything else.
- Instead, the police started doing
- was they started arresting the people standing around
- that they could tell were very closeted.
- And they would arrest them for loitering,
- and they would leave with them.
- And then we would never really see those people again.
- But it started filtering back up.
- What was happening is, after they got this poor man
- in the car, who probably had maybe a family with one child,
- or something like that.
- Or maybe he was a priest, or maybe he was a policeman.
- Whatever.
- They would say to him, well, for a certain amount of money,
- we can make this disappear.
- And what they would do, of course,
- is pay them a certain amount of money.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure, sure.
- So when did you start seeing things change a little bit
- with the police department?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, shortly after, Gay Liberation
- got formed at the U of R. Because it was not
- going to go anywhere meeting in somebody's living room.
- And it started at the U of R. And all of us
- sort of gravitated to it.
- Now we couldn't really be members,
- because we weren't students.
- But that's when it really started to change.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK we'll move up to that point then.
- Because I do want to get to the point
- that even before the Gay Liberation Front at the U of R,
- you were meeting at Eva Scipione's house with Danny.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me that story.
- Tell me one, what first drove you
- to start some sort of discussions about this issue?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And then just tell me--
- JOHN W. GRACE: Again, Stonegate had happened.
- NELSON BALDO: Stonewall.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Stonewall.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Stonewall, excuse me, had happened.
- And I mean, that was a very deciding thing for gay people.
- And it was like, well, if they can do that in New York
- and change things, why can't we here?
- And I think the other thing--
- I know for me, personally-- was they were saying
- that gays were sick and that.
- Well, I got news for you, I never felt sick.
- And I mean, I used to say that to them all the time.
- I used to say, I don't know what the hell wrong with you,
- I don't feel sick.
- I think everything I do is perfectly normal.
- I mean, I used to say man is not capable of doing
- an unnormal act.
- He's just not capable.
- If he can do it, it's normal.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about those days
- at Eva's and Danny's house.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
- There was a very small group of us, four or five.
- And we would get together and just
- talk about how we could make change, what we could do,
- and envision a future when we wouldn't even need it.
- And then the U of R came around and started a chapter
- out there, and they called it the Gay Liberation Front.
- And of course, we had no place, really, to meet.
- I mean, Eva Scipione, Danny's mother,
- was getting to the point where she
- wanted her living room back.
- So we all gravitated to the U of R, and started going to there.
- But like I said, we could not-- as being non-U of R people,
- we were limited to what our involvement could be.
- But we were very necessary in the movement
- there, because we were not closeted, really.
- And they sort of had to be, because the student life
- out there was still very tragic.
- These students, if they found out other students were gay,
- they weren't good to them.
- Same with professors out there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, as this starts happening,
- what's your involvement in it?
- NELSON BALDO: I was just involved peripherally because
- of work, a job that I had.
- But I went to the first dance, I remember.
- And I remember the kids outside the door
- looking at us as though we were performing monkeys inside.
- It was so odd.
- I don't know what they expected to see.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let's talk about that.
- Let's talk about that first gay dance.
- JOHN W. GRACE: It was great.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was it like?
- And tell me again, what was the motive behind it?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, what was the motive behind it?
- To have a dance.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Actually, it wasn't just a dance,
- it was a whole weekend.
- And there were seminars.
- We did seminars about what it was to be gay, and like that.
- We addressed the youth problem.
- A lot of things like that, we addressed
- in different little consciousness groups.
- And we had a Speakers Bureau that we formed at that time.
- And we would go out then and speak
- at different schools and that.
- And again, this is where not many
- of the students from the U of R would really want to do that.
- Because I mean, they were relying
- on their parents for money and that
- to continue their education.
- If their parents found out that one
- of the things they were doing was going around and telling
- everybody they were gay, they would probably
- cut the money off.
- So I mean, it was really the few of us
- that were just willing to say, we don't care,
- we're going to go out there.
- We're going to do the speaking engagements.
- We just don't care.
- And I mean, when you start going into the U of R,
- and speaking to the professors and that--
- I mean, I can remember going--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just waiting for this cart to go by again.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Oh.
- Is that a refreshment cart?
- I'm ready.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know.
- NELSON BALDO: I don't think so.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I think it's probably
- moving furniture or something.
- I think they have hot coffee and salt.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, let's pick it up to some of the activities
- that you were doing were actually
- speaking to professors.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, yeah.
- I mean, one of the things that we did
- is we would go and speak to the people in the psychology
- department, in the psychiatry department, the interns
- and that.
- And the way we did it, you would go up,
- and you would sit in front of them,
- and just open yourself up to questions.
- And this goes back to--
- I was pretty tough at that time about it.
- Because I did not like them telling me that I
- needed psychological help.
- That did not go down with me at all.
- And I would argue with them, and tell them
- that I thought they were crazy.
- I didn't think there was anything wrong with me.
- And then finally, of course, they
- accepted it, and took it off the list of diseases
- within the department.
- And that was a very major breakthrough.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, so that was actually
- going to be my next question was in these Speakers Bureaus
- and these activities and conferences you
- were having with the psychological professors, what
- kind of reactions were you getting?
- JOHN W. GRACE: It was a mixture.
- It was a mixture.
- A lot of it was very positive from them.
- But there were people that it was not.
- I can remember going to a temple.
- And we spoke at a temple in Brighton,
- I can't even tell you which one.
- And there were some people there that were
- incredibly intelligent people.
- And a couple of them, when we talked about different things
- within the gay culture and that, would sit there and just go,
- well, I just wish our culture was that open.
- And they really understood where we were.
- And of course, that's a form of therapy
- for me to be able to sit there--
- I mean, I can't believe what I worked
- through in that time being there,
- and just having to respond.
- And Danny Scipione--
- I mean, too bad Danny is dead.
- But he was always at these too.
- And he was a real firebrand.
- I mean, Danny and I-- there was nothing to the two of us
- to get up and start screaming at people
- if they started giving us rough time.
- We just didn't put up with it.
- I remember one time a guy in the audience
- stood up and said something about, "Well,
- what really bothers me is when a straight man hits on me."
- And I mean, I just stood up and looked him dead in the eyes,
- and I said, "But you think you have
- some kind of God-given right to hit on any woman moving,
- don't you?"
- And I mean, the audience went crazy.
- They started applauding.
- He just sort of slunk out.
- We confronted a lot of them with what was going on.
- Then I can also remember--
- I didn't go to the one at Greece High School.
- NELSON BALDO: There was a riot.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, the students
- started rioting because gay people were in their school.
- NELSON BALDO: Timmy brought them in.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, Timmy Mains brought them in.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to actually get back
- to the first gay dance at Rochester.
- I want to get either one of you--
- describe for me just the experience
- of walking into that, walking into the dance.
- What was it like?
- And what did you see?
- What did you feel?
- JOHN W. GRACE: I think it gave an incredible feeling that you
- were arriving as a person.
- Because here all of a sudden, you were walking into a room
- where you could pretty much--
- you did not have to hide your affection
- for whoever you were with.
- All your friends were there.
- It was really a different thing.
- Remember that at that time, Nelson and I
- had been together--
- I don't know, probably about five years.
- We could not openly show our affection in any way.
- You just could not do that.
- That's a very uncomfortable situation,
- when you love somebody and you cannot in any way show
- your affection.
- That's not right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How about you, Nelson?
- And what were you feeling that night?
- NELSON BALDO: I think I was a little apprehensive, just
- arriving there.
- Because it was just weird with all the people looking in.
- And as I said, I don't know what they expected to see.
- But we all looked pretty much the same as they did.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, I don't know what they expected.
- NELSON BALDO: Hippies with hair and flannel shirts,
- and all the rest of it.
- JOHN W. GRACE: And that in itself
- becomes threatening to them.
- Because they expect something different.
- They expect you to really fit a stereotype or something
- like that.
- NELSON BALDO: Oh yeah, especially back then.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, and when you don't, you
- look just like the person next door, that's
- very threatening to people.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah, but it worked both ways.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- NELSON BALDO: There was a bar down on State Street,
- and two women owned it.
- They wouldn't serve me, because I was a hippie.
- And they thought I was there to hustle or whatever.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- NELSON BALDO: But they would not serve me,
- because I wasn't gay to them.
- JOHN W. GRACE: To them, right.
- Exactly.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, speaking of dances,
- let's talk about Top of the Plaza, and that dance there.
- Tell me the story like I've never heard it before.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
- We were really tired of the police
- coming in to the gay bars and making us stop dancing.
- I mean, this was really getting old.
- And we had to do something about it.
- And we came up with the idea that well,
- if we can't dance in our bars, then
- we're going to dance in theirs.
- So a whole group of us got together,
- and we were going to arrive there at a special time,
- and we were all going to have partners.
- And my partner was Liz Bell.
- And she was my, "date" when I arrived there.
- And we purposely all dressed very, very much
- like straight people on a date.
- And it was probably about ten or fifteen of us couples.
- And the idea was that we would all go out and start dancing
- on the floor to the music.
- And we had a signal.
- And when it happened, I would leave Liz and start dancing
- with a man, and Liz would leave me and start dancing
- with a woman.
- And at the same time, we had people there with leaflets
- to hand out.
- And it was about why we were doing this,
- that the police were in our bars,
- arresting us for dancing together and like that.
- And we were saying things, like this is the home of Susan B.
- Anthony and that.
- And you've just got to understand,
- if we can't dance in our bars, we're coming after you.
- We're going to dance in yours.
- That's the way it is, it's guerrilla theater.
- We're after you.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What kind of reaction did you get?
- JOHN W. GRACE: We got thrown out.
- Yeah, we got thrown out right away.
- NELSON BALDO: Wow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And how did that make you feel?
- JOHN W. GRACE: I felt great, because I thought
- we had really made a statement.
- Up until then-- you got to remember
- that up there was all these attorneys, and judges and that.
- And that's where they went with their wives and that.
- And it was all very quiet, and sedate, and very proper.
- And they had never really brushed
- against anything like this, and we just threw it in their face.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- Nelson, were you there?
- NELSON BALDO: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No?
- OK.
- NELSON BALDO: I was not.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk about some of the people
- that you were working with in those days with the Speakers
- Bureaus, and the gay activism events like Top
- of the Plaza and that.
- If I throw some names out at you,
- I just want to kind of get your opinion
- of who these people were, and what they were like.
- Remember, Karen Hagberg?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure, sure.
- Karen's still a dear friend of mine.
- I mean, Karen-- there was RJ Alcala, Danny Scipione.
- There was Richard Reesen's lover--
- NELSON BALDO: Oh.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Joseph Johns, there we go.
- NELSON BALDO: Joseph.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Joseph Johns.
- Well, Liz Bell.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, talk to me about Karen.
- What was she like to work with?
- And what kind of person was she?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Karen?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Karen was a lot of fun,
- but she used to be absolutely amazed by me.
- Because I just was very, very out.
- And she would say to me things like, "Well, you treat
- people like a sexual object."
- And she'd say, "But somehow, that's
- OK, because they treat you like a sexual object."
- And I would say, "Well, that's pretty much what it's about,
- isn't it, Karen?"
- Karen didn't live far from us either.
- And I think Karen had begun to really understand my psyche, as
- far as I was not going to be tied into a lot of convention,
- and I never have been.
- And sometimes that's good, sometimes that's very bad.
- And when it's very bad, you just have to take the knocks.
- And that's the way it was.
- But I was not going to be tied into a lot of convention,
- because I don't believe in it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about RJ.
- Talk to me about like I've never heard of him before.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
- RJ was again, U of R. And at that time--
- oh!
- At that time, he was studying the baroque oboe, I believe,
- at the U of R.
- NELSON BALDO: It was oboe.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- And I'm trying of remember.
- Karen-- I don't know what Karen was.
- But they were all out of the Eastman, OK?
- And RJ lived with Karen Hagberg.
- Karen had a house, and there was about three or four students
- lived there with her.
- And RJ was always a lot of energy, a lot of energy.
- Still is today.
- And I never did many speaking engagements with RJ.
- But then again, I don't think most of the U of R students
- did a lot of the speaking engagements.
- And that was really my main thrust
- was the speaking engagements.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you work with Marshall Goldman?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yes.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, talk to me about who he was
- and what he did.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Again, Marshall was a U of R student.
- And I always thought Marshall was, at first,
- a little bit of a lost soul.
- And I know a lot of it came from him being gay and coming
- from a wealthy Jewish family.
- And I think that they just didn't know what
- to make of him as a gay man.
- And I think it caused an awful lot of problems for Marshall,
- and he had acceptance problems because of all of it.
- But of course, in the gay family,
- you just pull people in.
- And I mean--
- OK, so you've had this rough time with it
- all, and people haven't treated you right.
- But we're all family, and we stay together.
- And I think that meant an awful lot to Marshall, I really do.
- I haven't seen Marshall in a lot of years.
- And I do mean a lot, like thirty.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: He's out on the west coast, isn't he?
- JOHN W. GRACE: I have no idea, to tell you the truth.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: How about Patti Evans?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Patti, she was always my fave.
- Patti, again, was U of R. And when
- we danced at the Top of the Plaza at that time,
- if my memory is correct, it was Patti that wrote the leaflet
- and had it produced.
- And then I think she was the one that was handing it out.
- But Patti was always there, and Patti was a real good organizer
- too.
- She was very active in the community.
- And didn't Patti start coming into the restaurant
- with her father?
- NELSON BALDO: I think so.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's see.
- How about Whitey LeBlanc?
- NELSON BALDO: Whitey!
- JOHN W. GRACE: There we go.
- Whitey, again, he was always at the meetings,
- always there pitching in.
- Doing, doing, doing.
- And I haven't seen Whitey in a few years.
- But again, there was a man that just lived
- his life very out and open, and didn't really care
- what people thought.
- And that was very important.
- Because you take when I was pre-service,
- I didn't even know about gay people.
- And I remember there was a Look or Life magazine,
- and on the front of it, it had about the underground gay life
- in New York City.
- And it was actually the first time
- I ever heard of the word gay associated with homosexuals.
- And that meant a lot to me when I
- saw that, because it opened up my eyes, like,
- well, there's a whole community of us.
- I'm not this real weird little freak,
- there's a whole community of us.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: In your activities with the Gay
- Liberation Front, which eventually
- became Gay Alliance when it moved off campus,
- did you realize at the time of significance
- of what you were doing?
- And did you have--
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --that kind of fore vision?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, I did.
- And Danny Scipione and I, we used to--
- Danny and I were very close friends,
- and Danny and I used to talk about it.
- And we used to always say to each other,
- the whole purpose of what we're doing
- is to become extinct, that we won't be needed.
- Everything we're doing is leading to one place
- where gays are so accepted that our organization and all that
- simply will not be needed.
- And the day will come.
- So yes, we did understand what we were doing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- I was going to ask a question.
- It's an unfair question-- but the day will come.
- When do you think it will come?
- JOHN W. GRACE: It's not here yet.
- It really is not here yet.
- And yeah, I believe it will come.
- But it's not just that attitudes and values are hard to change.
- It's also it's ingrained in our legal system and everything
- else.
- I mean, it's really difficult.
- I've had a rather bad experience with a US Attorney,
- and I can't get anybody to do anything about it.
- They simply-- so what, he called you a queer, big deal,
- you know?
- That sort of thing, but it is a big deal.
- And I keep writing my letters to them and that.
- But it's changing, but it's still not there yet.
- I mean, what the hell?
- We can't even get married in every state in the union.
- Now that's crazy.
- And again, if you think about that in itself--
- we can marry in some states, can't marry in other states.
- What a mess it's becoming.
- I mean, they are creating such an absolute mess
- that after it all gels and becomes that anybody
- can get married anywhere, then it's
- going to take a very long period of time
- trying to undo what they've done to keep us from doing that.
- I mean, it's stupid.
- It's stupid.
- Same thing that I thought about Clinton
- and Don't Ask, Don't Tell--
- why?
- And everybody would look at us as gay people
- and say, just be patient.
- I'm not going to be patient.
- I mean, that was my attitude, why should I be patient?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- I want to talk about some of the fun things.
- You came up with the idea of doing the radio show.
- Can you talk to me about that, about the culmination
- of that idea, and what came of that idea?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- Well, we had a radio station in town called WCMF at the time.
- I guess it's still around.
- But at the time, WCMF was what they
- called an underground station, and it
- didn't play by the rules.
- I mean, it was great station, it just didn't play by the rules.
- It had all kinds of alternative music
- that you wouldn't hear anywhere else.
- And it also had a lot of music that was basically,
- a little dated but was still great music.
- And I was talking with somebody from New York.
- And they said, "Do you know in New York,
- there is a gay radio hour?" and they said
- the name of the call letters.
- And I said, "What a great idea."
- So I sat down--
- and I was always pretty good in the phone originally.
- I sat down and picked up the phone, and I called WCMF.
- And I said, "I'd like to speak to somebody about starting
- a gay radio hour."
- And I thought, well, the phone would just go bang.
- And instead, they said "Well, you want to speak to so-and-so,
- he's our general manager.
- Hang on, we'll get him."
- And of course, I'm sure this was like a one-room place.
- And he got on the phone, and we talked about it.
- And he said an hour a week.
- And I said, "Yep."
- And he said, "Yeah, I'd like to meet with you."
- And I said, well, "I don't think I'm the person you
- should meet with.
- I think really, you need somebody
- that sort of understands music and like that,
- and that's not really my bend."
- And he said, "Well, can you pass this
- through the channels, whatever, and have somebody
- get a hold of us?"
- And I said, "Certainly."
- So I got a hold of-- and I think it was Patti Evans that I
- told about it.
- And I think Patti was the first one
- to grab it and start running with it.
- But then there was somebody else involved.
- Can't even remember the guy's name.
- But there was a guy involved too that was a DJ,
- and Patti was a DJ for it.
- And it was one hour a week.
- But again, the significance of it
- is teenagers sitting at home, knowing
- he's gay, doesn't know who to tell,
- doesn't know who to talk to about it,
- feels totally alone, totally isolated, and guess what?
- There's the gay radio hour.
- And that's pretty incredible.
- I never heard a gay radio hour, you know?
- Yeah, that's all pretty incredible.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just on site, do you remember off hand,
- which year?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure, that would have been about 1971.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So that early, yes?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- Oh yeah, that early, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And how long did it run, do you know?
- JOHN W. GRACE: I really don't.
- I don't think it was long-lived, actually.
- Because CMF got bought, for one thing.
- And then became much more of a conventional radio station.
- I mean, CMF, when it was underground, was pretty wild.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You had opportunities
- to work on Tim Mains campaign?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, can you talk to me about that?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
- When we had the restaurant, Tim was running for mayor
- at that time, right?
- NELSON BALDO: Was it mayor or councilman?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Maybe it was councilman.
- NELSON BALDO: I think it was councilman.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- And we donated the food, and we did all the prep work and that.
- We basically got together with Marge David,
- who has Cheesy Eddie's.
- She donated cheesecakes, and like that.
- And we put together the catering and then that.
- And we did it up at Geva.
- NELSON BALDO: It was fun.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
- NELSON BALDO: Lorraine was there.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- And it was a fundraiser for Tim.
- And this, again, was a big deal.
- I mean, here he is going to be a councilman, hopefully.
- And that's a big deal.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It was a big deal
- because first openly gay man--
- JOHN W. GRACE: Absolutely.
- We had had gay mayors.
- The city of Rochester never wanted to admit it,
- but we had had gay mayors.
- There was Stephen May, and who was the other?
- Barry, Mayor Barry.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Peter, wasn't it?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, Peter Barry.
- And Peter Barry used to have gay parties at his house over
- on Monroe Avenue.
- I guess they were drag balls, really,
- but it was the sort of thing that nobody talked about.
- And Stephen May was gay, but you would have never known it.
- And everybody in the gay community
- used to call him Suzie Wong, because Stephen May
- has that little bit of a Chinese look to him.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Not so politically correct back then,
- were we?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, when Bette Midler came to town
- and did a show here at the auditorium,
- she referred to him as Suzie Wong.
- And I'm sure he did not like it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That's so funny.
- You guys, you've seen a lot.
- If you could just kind of encompass
- it one statement, really, how have things changed?
- What have you seen change along the way?
- But more importantly, where do you think we still need to go?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I think one of the things that
- is happening right now is we're becoming more mainstream.
- But in the same vein, we are becoming more--
- I hate to use the word socialized.
- But I guess, socialized in the straight community.
- And I think number one, that may actually
- hurt some of the gay people.
- I mean, it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
- to me to all of a sudden declare yourself
- white almost-heterosexual and move
- to the suburbs sort of thing.
- I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me.
- Because as a gay person, you are living outside of your culture,
- and it gives you a tremendous amount
- of insight into your culture.
- And I think it's the one thing that spurs
- creativity in a gay person.
- Because most gay people that I know
- are incredibly creative people.
- And I think it's one of the reasons.
- I mean, you are living outside of that culture,
- and you really get insight into it.
- And you're not bound by the things like--
- I mean, I know religion.
- I have never had any use for organized religion.
- I just haven't, and I've always thought that they--
- in fact, organized religion--
- always was trying to control me and control my sexuality.
- And so I just think you're really different,
- and I'm hoping that we don't become
- just that blend of white heterosexual
- that's out there in the suburbs.
- NELSON BALDO: And it's happening.
- I saw a headline recently, something about
- are gays becoming boring?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, exactly.
- NELSON BALDO: And I would have to say that they are.
- Because the great mix is not going on any longer.
- If you were traveling and had to find out
- where the local bar was, you went in,
- and you would meet a doctor, or you would meet a carpenter,
- or you'd meet a truck driver.
- And that's how it was.
- But now, I think the stratas setting up,
- where all the educated men are together.
- And I see that all the time.
- And I think gays are in danger of becoming boring,
- just because of that.
- There's not the mixture anymore--
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- NELSON BALDO: --the way it used to be.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, if you were
- to speak to the young gay people today,
- what would you tell them as far as what they should
- be doing to champion their--
- I don't know if they championed their rights,
- but make life better for themselves?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I think probably,
- the most important thing right now that we have to do
- is straighten out the marriage mess.
- That's got to get straightened out,
- because it's not only about getting married.
- It's the whole legal system that goes with it.
- For instance, we've been together forty-five years.
- If I was to die--
- I mean, now we have it controlled
- under living wills and that.
- But who knows?
- Can they be broke?
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah, it's very difficult.
- JOHN W. GRACE: You just don't know.
- And so I think it's incredibly important that that's the one
- thing they really work on.
- There seems to be a fascination within the gay community
- with adopting children.
- I've never had that desire.
- I do have a son.
- But I've never had that desire to raise a child,
- or have a child in the home.
- It's not something I find the least bit appealing.
- But there seems to be an awful attraction to that with people.
- And I think they need to be a little bit careful about that.
- Because once again, I think that they're
- making changes that they may not fully understand, I really do.
- And unless we can get the society to a point where
- it truly doesn't matter--
- but I don't think we're there yet--
- and I think it's a little difficult on some
- of the children.
- I really do.
- And life's hard enough.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So years from now,
- if future generations look back at all our history here,
- what do you want them to know most about who you were?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Who I was?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, and what you've done.
- JOHN W. GRACE: They're not going to know who I am.
- I mean, that's--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But what do you want them to know about you?
- JOHN W. GRACE: About me?
- About what--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What you've done to kind of--
- JOHN W. GRACE: Well, we were the pioneers
- that started this whole thing.
- I mean, that's what we were.
- And yeah, I think it would be very nice if people knew that.
- That's not going to happen.
- There's people that have bigger names than me
- that they all know about.
- But I'll tell you the one thing that I thought was one
- of the most progressive things we did together,
- and that was open up the restaurant Iggy's.
- And when we opened it, from day one,
- we said anybody that walks through those doors
- and knows how to behave and act accordingly
- gets treated like anybody else, and we take care of them.
- It doesn't matter what color they are, what sex they are,
- anything else.
- Green is green, and that's what the money is.
- And that's how you deal with it.
- And that's what we did.
- And that's how we hired people and everything else.
- I remember we went through a period
- where we didn't have any African-Americans working
- for us on the floor.
- And we didn't like that.
- We really did not like that.
- And then we got a hold of a friend of ours, Josephine.
- And she started working for us, and then
- her sister, Chocolate Chip, and the two of them
- were working for us.
- But what happened at Iggy's was an extension of how we felt,
- and what we wanted to see happen in the future.
- That what did it matter?
- And I mean, Iggy's was a pretty special place.
- There could be a motorcycle couple
- sitting at a table eating.
- Right next to them could be a judge.
- And then there could be two gay people, or two lesbians,
- whatever.
- And none of it mattered.
- Everybody just got along, and it just didn't matter.
- Well, guess what?
- It's a big world.
- That's just the way it should be.
- It takes a lot of energy to hate.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you ever public with the fact
- or promoted the fact that Iggy's was gay-owned business?
- JOHN W. GRACE: Oh, I don't think we had to.
- NELSON BALDO: No.
- JOHN W. GRACE: We were so well known.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- And we didn't feel that we should be doing that, either.
- Because then you start to scare away your straight people too.
- We wanted everybody there.
- We wanted it known that we were a cosmopolitan restaurant.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, what about you?
- How do you want history to reflect upon your life?
- NELSON BALDO: I think, probably, much the same.
- I remember an incident with a woman who worked for us.
- Her younger brother asked to speak to John
- and myself up in the office.
- And I thought it was so strange.
- What could he possibly want?
- And he decided to come out.
- He had not been out to his family.
- And he thanked us for living our lives openly.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- NELSON BALDO: And that meant a lot to me.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Pretty rewarding, yeah.
- NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
- And I think that, more than anything.
- And we never made a big deal out of it.
- It's like, this is it.
- Just deal with it or walk away.
- JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
- We never flaunted it, we never hid it.
- NELSON BALDO: No.
- JOHN W. GRACE: I mean, it's just--
- there it is.
- And what I discovered by being like that
- is that people got to like you, really as a person,
- they got to like you, and then they
- made the discovery that you're gay, well,
- now they got a conflict.
- And I mean, if you're not backing away from it,
- it's their conflict, not yours.
- And it becomes very quick apparent to them
- that it's their problem, they're the one with the problem.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Similar question, just asked
- in a slightly different way.
- I'm going to ask you both individually.
- But John, I'll start with you.
- Over the years of your work of activism,
- and political campaigns, and speakers bureaus and all that,
- what do you think has been your most significant contribution?
- What are you most proud of?
- JOHN W. GRACE: I would say just living my life,
- and being very out, being very open,
- and being very out about what I am.
- And I mean with everybody.
- Just this is it.
- You tell me you don't know somebody gay?
- Guess what, you do right here.
- And that is, I think, my biggest contribution to this world,
- is that even back as far as I can remember,
- when we were declared to be psychotic
- and everything else, I never thought that.
- And I just never acted that way.
- And I think that's the biggest part of it.
- I think we changed--
- and I really think that a lot of it
- happened here with the Gay Liberation Front in Rochester--
- we changed the definition of homosexuality
- in the psychiatry world.
- I really believe it started here.
- Because we did a lot of work with the students
- who were psychiatrists, and that are becoming psychiatrists then
- at the U of R, making them understand.
- I mean, I used to sit there and say, I
- would like to know what I do so differently in bed that you
- don't do.
- I mean, could you please tell me?
- What do you do that I don't do?
- And I really think that that whole seed--
- I mean, the U of R School of Psychiatry
- is not small potatoes.
- And I think it had a lot to do with it changing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, what about you?
- What are you most proud of?
- NELSON BALDO: I think it's probably
- along those lines, just that--
- just lived very openly, and not made a big deal out of it.
- Just better to be presented as a person first.
- Remember, I was bartending downtown here,
- and I worked with a guy, I trained him behind the bar.
- And I worked with him for months.
- And then he found out somehow that I was gay.
- He was angry because I didn't tell him that I was gay.
- And I was-- it seemed so odd to me.
- Because I'm not going to meet someone and say hi, I'm Nelson,
- and I'm gay.
- What the hell does it matter?
- You just, as John's saying, just live your life openly.
- And you have no idea who you are influencing by doing that.
- And I've been surprised and gratified quite often,
- actually.
- JOHN W. GRACE: And I actually think I deserve a medal.
- For forty-five years, I put up with this one.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm not sure who deserves the medal.
- NELSON BALDO: That's right.
- Thank you.
- JOHN W. GRACE: I think you're right on that one.
- I won't argue.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And on that note-- well, thank you both.
- NELSON BALDO: Bu-duh-bum.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Brian will get those microphones off of you.
- NELSON BALDO: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And so, before you go--