Video Interview, John W. Grace and Nelson Baldo, August 16, 2012

CREW: OK, and good.

I'll get sound levels from the start.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, John, first and foremost,

when we put your name on screen, give us the correct spelling

of your first and last name, and how

you want it to read on screen.

JOHN W. GRACE: OK, it's John, J-O-H-N W. Grace, G-R-A-C-E.

W's the middle initial, of course.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And Nelson?

NELSON BALDO: Nelson, N-E-L-S-O-N, Baldo, B-A-L-D-O.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Great.

The first thing I'm going to start out

is just kind of talk about what it's

like to be young and gay in--

I think it was what, 1960s, your kind of coming of age?

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, well--

NELSON BALDO: Yeah.

JOHN W. GRACE: I mean, that's when I came to Rochester,

was in the sixties.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I forget, how about how old

were you during that?

JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I would have just

gotten out of the service, so I would have been twenty-one.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's just start there

in the 1960s for both of you.

We'll start with you first, John.

Gay life in the 1960s-- what was there?

And what was available to people back then?

JOHN W. GRACE: Well really, the only thing

that was going on in the 1960s and the gay life

was the gay bars.

But the gay bars at that time were all

owned by straight people, and mostly by mafia-type people.

I mean, there were no gay bar owners.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But how was that for you socially?

JOHN W. GRACE: There was no social life for gay people

outside of the bar.

And I mean, the bars were pickup places, is what they were.

But other than that, there was absolutely nothing

to do to socialize.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you actively seeking

other alternatives to meet people socially?

JOHN W. GRACE: There was no way to do that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No way to do that.

NELSON BALDO: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, what about you?

Where were things at for you in the 1960s?

NELSON BALDO: Well, I guess it was about the same,

that that was the only focal point for gay people at all.

It was pretty repressive.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that was my next question to you--

JOHN W. GRACE: See, that's where we were very lucky.

Because I got out of the service when

I was twenty-one, after four years in the Air Force.

And Nelson had got out of the service just the year before.

NELSON BALDO: Right.

JOHN W. GRACE: And we met almost probably,

within me being in Rochester a month.

We met, and we just have always been together.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, you were both of you

kind of lucky you found each other.

JOHN W. GRACE: Very lucky.

NELSON BALDO: Yes.

JOHN W. GRACE: And then what happened

is we had an apartment and all that.

We had a circle of friends.

And really, what happened is the way you socialized in that most

through entertaining in your home.

People came over for dinner, or just

to hang out and listen to music and like that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

NELSON BALDO: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: The answer's from both of you

here, because I know you both had kind of had

similar experiences.

We'll step back a little bit.

Talk to me about being gay and in the military

in the late fifties, sixties.

JOHN W. GRACE: Think something most people do not

understand about that period of time in the military

is that if they found out you were gay,

the first thing that would happen

is they would give you something called a Section 8 discharge.

Now they didn't even have to catch you

in a sexual act or anything.

But they would give you a Section 8 discharge.

And if you got a Section 8 discharge,

you simply did not work again in your life.

I mean, if you did, you were relegated to jobs

that nobody wanted.

Because this would always come up at job interviews.

And as soon as it did, the only thing

that a Section 8 meant was it meant you were queer.

And nobody hired gay people.

That's the way it was.

NELSON BALDO: Yeah.

But I always thought it was an open secret.

I mean, where I was stationed, everyone knew who was gay.

I mean, I'm sure they all knew I was gay,

and I knew who else was gay.

But you really didn't do anything about it, at least

in the service.

And outside of that, I don't know?

Did you ever go to-- you went to gay bars in England.

JOHN W. GRACE: I was in England, and I did go to gay bars.

And as a matter of fact, that is the first time

I ever really made a connection with a man other

than a sexual relationship.

I met a guy, he was English.

And I fell madly in love with him.

And we spent probably about a year together.

And then I got discharged and came home.

And that experience-- when I got discharged,

I promised myself that I would never again

allow anybody to intimidate me because of my sexuality.

I mean, that was just a promise that I made to myself.

And I've lived by that to this day.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to jump way ahead, which I usually

don't do it in an interview.

But this is actually a good moment to ask this question.

When Clinton signed off on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy,

do you remember that day?

And what were your feelings about that?

JOHN W. GRACE: I thought it was a cop out.

I thought, why are you doing this?

Why not just legalize gays in the military?

Of course, having spent--

and same for you--

all that time in Europe, they treated it very differently

in the European military.

NELSON BALDO: Right.

JOHN W. GRACE: Because it was non-issue.

I mean, it was simply non-issue.

NELSON BALDO: And that had changed already.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

NELSON BALDO: I think for the Brits and--

JOHN W. GRACE: Oh, for the Brits, definitely.

NELSON BALDO: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And the Israeli army.

JOHN W. GRACE: The Germans.

NELSON BALDO: Right, yeah.

It just made no sense.

But it was a step.

Everything's a little step.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

OK, well, let's jump back.

You're in Rochester, 1960s.

Not much to do but go out to bars,

maybe have some friends over at the house.

At some point-- and you specifically, John, I think--

got involved with the university and the Gay Liberation Front.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

I mean, what really happened was in the sixties, Stonewall.

And when Stonewall happened, it sort of opened your eyes up

to like, well, we really don't have

to put up with this anymore.

And we got talking, small groups of us amongst our so friends,

like Danny Scipione, I can tell you.

Buron Borg.

We all got talking amongst ourselves,

saying well, now, why isn't something

happening in Rochester?

And we started formulating the idea.

I mean, we went to Danny's house,

and we started formulating the idea of some kind of gay group.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I've got that note coming up.

JOHN W. GRACE: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But I don't want to pass

on this, just some other notes I'm just looking at here first.

Again, about gay life in Rochester in the 1960s

and seventies, I want to talk about some of the things

that you guys witnessed and experienced, police

tactics and policies.

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.

There used to be a place called Martha's.

Or maybe it was Dick's 43.

They were always changing the name back and forth.

NELSON BALDO: I think it was Dick's 43 back there.

JOHN W. GRACE: At that time?

NELSON BALDO: Yeah.

JOHN W. GRACE: It was the Gruttadauria family.

And the police would come.

And they would come in, and they would unplug the jukebox.

Because everybody-- the guys--

would have been dancing.

But as soon as you knew the police were coming,

everybody stopped dancing.

They would unplug the jukebox.

And I mean, this was very open.

They would just go to the bar, and the bartender

would open the cash register, get some money out, give it

to the police officer.

He would walk over, plug the jukebox back in, and walk out.

And it was a common occurrence.

And to go a little further with that--

because something else interesting happened.

Eventually, the gay bars got owned by gay people.

And when that happened, there was no more of the police

coming in and doing that.

But instead, what the police started doing was coming in,

and they could tell who was closeted

and who wasn't and that.

And they would arrest--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought until the squeaky wheel

goes by.

(pause in recording)

CREW: Sit back there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's take it back a little further.

Talk about that transition that you

made from gay bars being owned by heterosexuals

to finally becoming gay-owned.

JOHN W. GRACE: Right.

There became a point where the gay bars

got owned by gay people.

And one of the first one's was Jim's, and it was on--

that's what?

NELSON BALDO: Sam's Square.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

Yeah.

The square there.

And what the police then started doing-- because they couldn't

come in and unplug the jukebox, because nobody

was paying any attention to the police then.

They'd come through the door, and everybody'd

continue to dance, and we'd whistle at them

and everything else.

Instead, the police started doing

was they started arresting the people standing around

that they could tell were very closeted.

And they would arrest them for loitering,

and they would leave with them.

And then we would never really see those people again.

But it started filtering back up.

What was happening is, after they got this poor man

in the car, who probably had maybe a family with one child,

or something like that.

Or maybe he was a priest, or maybe he was a policeman.

Whatever.

They would say to him, well, for a certain amount of money,

we can make this disappear.

And what they would do, of course,

is pay them a certain amount of money.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure, sure.

So when did you start seeing things change a little bit

with the police department?

JOHN W. GRACE: Well, shortly after, Gay Liberation

got formed at the U of R. Because it was not

going to go anywhere meeting in somebody's living room.

And it started at the U of R. And all of us

sort of gravitated to it.

Now we couldn't really be members,

because we weren't students.

But that's when it really started to change.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK we'll move up to that point then.

Because I do want to get to the point

that even before the Gay Liberation Front at the U of R,

you were meeting at Eva Scipione's house with Danny.

JOHN W. GRACE: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me that story.

Tell me one, what first drove you

to start some sort of discussions about this issue?

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And then just tell me--

JOHN W. GRACE: Again, Stonegate had happened.

NELSON BALDO: Stonewall.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Stonewall.

JOHN W. GRACE: Stonewall, excuse me, had happened.

And I mean, that was a very deciding thing for gay people.

And it was like, well, if they can do that in New York

and change things, why can't we here?

And I think the other thing--

I know for me, personally-- was they were saying

that gays were sick and that.

Well, I got news for you, I never felt sick.

And I mean, I used to say that to them all the time.

I used to say, I don't know what the hell wrong with you,

I don't feel sick.

I think everything I do is perfectly normal.

I mean, I used to say man is not capable of doing

an unnormal act.

He's just not capable.

If he can do it, it's normal.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about those days

at Eva's and Danny's house.

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.

There was a very small group of us, four or five.

And we would get together and just

talk about how we could make change, what we could do,

and envision a future when we wouldn't even need it.

And then the U of R came around and started a chapter

out there, and they called it the Gay Liberation Front.

And of course, we had no place, really, to meet.

I mean, Eva Scipione, Danny's mother,

was getting to the point where she

wanted her living room back.

So we all gravitated to the U of R, and started going to there.

But like I said, we could not-- as being non-U of R people,

we were limited to what our involvement could be.

But we were very necessary in the movement

there, because we were not closeted, really.

And they sort of had to be, because the student life

out there was still very tragic.

These students, if they found out other students were gay,

they weren't good to them.

Same with professors out there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, as this starts happening,

what's your involvement in it?

NELSON BALDO: I was just involved peripherally because

of work, a job that I had.

But I went to the first dance, I remember.

And I remember the kids outside the door

looking at us as though we were performing monkeys inside.

It was so odd.

I don't know what they expected to see.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let's talk about that.

Let's talk about that first gay dance.

JOHN W. GRACE: It was great.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What was it like?

And tell me again, what was the motive behind it?

JOHN W. GRACE: Well, what was the motive behind it?

To have a dance.

NELSON BALDO: Yeah.

JOHN W. GRACE: Actually, it wasn't just a dance,

it was a whole weekend.

And there were seminars.

We did seminars about what it was to be gay, and like that.

We addressed the youth problem.

A lot of things like that, we addressed

in different little consciousness groups.

And we had a Speakers Bureau that we formed at that time.

And we would go out then and speak

at different schools and that.

And again, this is where not many

of the students from the U of R would really want to do that.

Because I mean, they were relying

on their parents for money and that

to continue their education.

If their parents found out that one

of the things they were doing was going around and telling

everybody they were gay, they would probably

cut the money off.

So I mean, it was really the few of us

that were just willing to say, we don't care,

we're going to go out there.

We're going to do the speaking engagements.

We just don't care.

And I mean, when you start going into the U of R,

and speaking to the professors and that--

I mean, I can remember going--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Just waiting for this cart to go by again.

JOHN W. GRACE: Oh.

Is that a refreshment cart?

I'm ready.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know.

NELSON BALDO: I don't think so.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I think it's probably

moving furniture or something.

I think they have hot coffee and salt.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, let's pick it up to some of the activities

that you were doing were actually

speaking to professors.

JOHN W. GRACE: Well, yeah.

I mean, one of the things that we did

is we would go and speak to the people in the psychology

department, in the psychiatry department, the interns

and that.

And the way we did it, you would go up,

and you would sit in front of them,

and just open yourself up to questions.

And this goes back to--

I was pretty tough at that time about it.

Because I did not like them telling me that I

needed psychological help.

That did not go down with me at all.

And I would argue with them, and tell them

that I thought they were crazy.

I didn't think there was anything wrong with me.

And then finally, of course, they

accepted it, and took it off the list of diseases

within the department.

And that was a very major breakthrough.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, so that was actually

going to be my next question was in these Speakers Bureaus

and these activities and conferences you

were having with the psychological professors, what

kind of reactions were you getting?

JOHN W. GRACE: It was a mixture.

It was a mixture.

A lot of it was very positive from them.

But there were people that it was not.

I can remember going to a temple.

And we spoke at a temple in Brighton,

I can't even tell you which one.

And there were some people there that were

incredibly intelligent people.

And a couple of them, when we talked about different things

within the gay culture and that, would sit there and just go,

well, I just wish our culture was that open.

And they really understood where we were.

And of course, that's a form of therapy

for me to be able to sit there--

I mean, I can't believe what I worked

through in that time being there,

and just having to respond.

And Danny Scipione--

I mean, too bad Danny is dead.

But he was always at these too.

And he was a real firebrand.

I mean, Danny and I-- there was nothing to the two of us

to get up and start screaming at people

if they started giving us rough time.

We just didn't put up with it.

I remember one time a guy in the audience

stood up and said something about, "Well,

what really bothers me is when a straight man hits on me."

And I mean, I just stood up and looked him dead in the eyes,

and I said, "But you think you have

some kind of God-given right to hit on any woman moving,

don't you?"

And I mean, the audience went crazy.

They started applauding.

He just sort of slunk out.

We confronted a lot of them with what was going on.

Then I can also remember--

I didn't go to the one at Greece High School.

NELSON BALDO: There was a riot.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, the students

started rioting because gay people were in their school.

NELSON BALDO: Timmy brought them in.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, Timmy Mains brought them in.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to actually get back

to the first gay dance at Rochester.

I want to get either one of you--

describe for me just the experience

of walking into that, walking into the dance.

What was it like?

And what did you see?

What did you feel?

JOHN W. GRACE: I think it gave an incredible feeling that you

were arriving as a person.

Because here all of a sudden, you were walking into a room

where you could pretty much--

you did not have to hide your affection

for whoever you were with.

All your friends were there.

It was really a different thing.

Remember that at that time, Nelson and I

had been together--

I don't know, probably about five years.

We could not openly show our affection in any way.

You just could not do that.

That's a very uncomfortable situation,

when you love somebody and you cannot in any way show

your affection.

That's not right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: How about you, Nelson?

And what were you feeling that night?

NELSON BALDO: I think I was a little apprehensive, just

arriving there.

Because it was just weird with all the people looking in.

And as I said, I don't know what they expected to see.

But we all looked pretty much the same as they did.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, I don't know what they expected.

NELSON BALDO: Hippies with hair and flannel shirts,

and all the rest of it.

JOHN W. GRACE: And that in itself

becomes threatening to them.

Because they expect something different.

They expect you to really fit a stereotype or something

like that.

NELSON BALDO: Oh yeah, especially back then.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, and when you don't, you

look just like the person next door, that's

very threatening to people.

NELSON BALDO: Yeah, but it worked both ways.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

NELSON BALDO: There was a bar down on State Street,

and two women owned it.

They wouldn't serve me, because I was a hippie.

And they thought I was there to hustle or whatever.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

NELSON BALDO: But they would not serve me,

because I wasn't gay to them.

JOHN W. GRACE: To them, right.

Exactly.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, speaking of dances,

let's talk about Top of the Plaza, and that dance there.

Tell me the story like I've never heard it before.

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.

We were really tired of the police

coming in to the gay bars and making us stop dancing.

I mean, this was really getting old.

And we had to do something about it.

And we came up with the idea that well,

if we can't dance in our bars, then

we're going to dance in theirs.

So a whole group of us got together,

and we were going to arrive there at a special time,

and we were all going to have partners.

And my partner was Liz Bell.

And she was my, "date" when I arrived there.

And we purposely all dressed very, very much

like straight people on a date.

And it was probably about ten or fifteen of us couples.

And the idea was that we would all go out and start dancing

on the floor to the music.

And we had a signal.

And when it happened, I would leave Liz and start dancing

with a man, and Liz would leave me and start dancing

with a woman.

And at the same time, we had people there with leaflets

to hand out.

And it was about why we were doing this,

that the police were in our bars,

arresting us for dancing together and like that.

And we were saying things, like this is the home of Susan B.

Anthony and that.

And you've just got to understand,

if we can't dance in our bars, we're coming after you.

We're going to dance in yours.

That's the way it is, it's guerrilla theater.

We're after you.

KEVIN INDOVINO: What kind of reaction did you get?

JOHN W. GRACE: We got thrown out.

Yeah, we got thrown out right away.

NELSON BALDO: Wow.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And how did that make you feel?

JOHN W. GRACE: I felt great, because I thought

we had really made a statement.

Up until then-- you got to remember

that up there was all these attorneys, and judges and that.

And that's where they went with their wives and that.

And it was all very quiet, and sedate, and very proper.

And they had never really brushed

against anything like this, and we just threw it in their face.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.

Nelson, were you there?

NELSON BALDO: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No?

OK.

NELSON BALDO: I was not.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk about some of the people

that you were working with in those days with the Speakers

Bureaus, and the gay activism events like Top

of the Plaza and that.

If I throw some names out at you,

I just want to kind of get your opinion

of who these people were, and what they were like.

Remember, Karen Hagberg?

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure, sure.

Karen's still a dear friend of mine.

I mean, Karen-- there was RJ Alcala, Danny Scipione.

There was Richard Reesen's lover--

NELSON BALDO: Oh.

JOHN W. GRACE: Joseph Johns, there we go.

NELSON BALDO: Joseph.

JOHN W. GRACE: Joseph Johns.

Well, Liz Bell.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, talk to me about Karen.

What was she like to work with?

And what kind of person was she?

JOHN W. GRACE: Karen?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

JOHN W. GRACE: Karen was a lot of fun,

but she used to be absolutely amazed by me.

Because I just was very, very out.

And she would say to me things like, "Well, you treat

people like a sexual object."

And she'd say, "But somehow, that's

OK, because they treat you like a sexual object."

And I would say, "Well, that's pretty much what it's about,

isn't it, Karen?"

Karen didn't live far from us either.

And I think Karen had begun to really understand my psyche, as

far as I was not going to be tied into a lot of convention,

and I never have been.

And sometimes that's good, sometimes that's very bad.

And when it's very bad, you just have to take the knocks.

And that's the way it was.

But I was not going to be tied into a lot of convention,

because I don't believe in it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about RJ.

Talk to me about like I've never heard of him before.

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.

RJ was again, U of R. And at that time--

oh!

At that time, he was studying the baroque oboe, I believe,

at the U of R.

NELSON BALDO: It was oboe.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

And I'm trying of remember.

Karen-- I don't know what Karen was.

But they were all out of the Eastman, OK?

And RJ lived with Karen Hagberg.

Karen had a house, and there was about three or four students

lived there with her.

And RJ was always a lot of energy, a lot of energy.

Still is today.

And I never did many speaking engagements with RJ.

But then again, I don't think most of the U of R students

did a lot of the speaking engagements.

And that was really my main thrust

was the speaking engagements.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you work with Marshall Goldman?

JOHN W. GRACE: Yes.

Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, talk to me about who he was

and what he did.

JOHN W. GRACE: Again, Marshall was a U of R student.

And I always thought Marshall was, at first,

a little bit of a lost soul.

And I know a lot of it came from him being gay and coming

from a wealthy Jewish family.

And I think that they just didn't know what

to make of him as a gay man.

And I think it caused an awful lot of problems for Marshall,

and he had acceptance problems because of all of it.

But of course, in the gay family,

you just pull people in.

And I mean--

OK, so you've had this rough time with it

all, and people haven't treated you right.

But we're all family, and we stay together.

And I think that meant an awful lot to Marshall, I really do.

I haven't seen Marshall in a lot of years.

And I do mean a lot, like thirty.

KEVIN INDOVINO: He's out on the west coast, isn't he?

JOHN W. GRACE: I have no idea, to tell you the truth.

KEVIN INDOVINO: How about Patti Evans?

JOHN W. GRACE: Patti, she was always my fave.

Patti, again, was U of R. And when

we danced at the Top of the Plaza at that time,

if my memory is correct, it was Patti that wrote the leaflet

and had it produced.

And then I think she was the one that was handing it out.

But Patti was always there, and Patti was a real good organizer

too.

She was very active in the community.

And didn't Patti start coming into the restaurant

with her father?

NELSON BALDO: I think so.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's see.

How about Whitey LeBlanc?

NELSON BALDO: Whitey!

JOHN W. GRACE: There we go.

Whitey, again, he was always at the meetings,

always there pitching in.

Doing, doing, doing.

And I haven't seen Whitey in a few years.

But again, there was a man that just lived

his life very out and open, and didn't really care

what people thought.

And that was very important.

Because you take when I was pre-service,

I didn't even know about gay people.

And I remember there was a Look or Life magazine,

and on the front of it, it had about the underground gay life

in New York City.

And it was actually the first time

I ever heard of the word gay associated with homosexuals.

And that meant a lot to me when I

saw that, because it opened up my eyes, like,

well, there's a whole community of us.

I'm not this real weird little freak,

there's a whole community of us.

KEVIN INDOVINO: In your activities with the Gay

Liberation Front, which eventually

became Gay Alliance when it moved off campus,

did you realize at the time of significance

of what you were doing?

And did you have--

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --that kind of fore vision?

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, I did.

And Danny Scipione and I, we used to--

Danny and I were very close friends,

and Danny and I used to talk about it.

And we used to always say to each other,

the whole purpose of what we're doing

is to become extinct, that we won't be needed.

Everything we're doing is leading to one place

where gays are so accepted that our organization and all that

simply will not be needed.

And the day will come.

So yes, we did understand what we were doing.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.

I was going to ask a question.

It's an unfair question-- but the day will come.

When do you think it will come?

JOHN W. GRACE: It's not here yet.

It really is not here yet.

And yeah, I believe it will come.

But it's not just that attitudes and values are hard to change.

It's also it's ingrained in our legal system and everything

else.

I mean, it's really difficult.

I've had a rather bad experience with a US Attorney,

and I can't get anybody to do anything about it.

They simply-- so what, he called you a queer, big deal,

you know?

That sort of thing, but it is a big deal.

And I keep writing my letters to them and that.

But it's changing, but it's still not there yet.

I mean, what the hell?

We can't even get married in every state in the union.

Now that's crazy.

And again, if you think about that in itself--

we can marry in some states, can't marry in other states.

What a mess it's becoming.

I mean, they are creating such an absolute mess

that after it all gels and becomes that anybody

can get married anywhere, then it's

going to take a very long period of time

trying to undo what they've done to keep us from doing that.

I mean, it's stupid.

It's stupid.

Same thing that I thought about Clinton

and Don't Ask, Don't Tell--

why?

And everybody would look at us as gay people

and say, just be patient.

I'm not going to be patient.

I mean, that was my attitude, why should I be patient?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.

I want to talk about some of the fun things.

You came up with the idea of doing the radio show.

Can you talk to me about that, about the culmination

of that idea, and what came of that idea?

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

Well, we had a radio station in town called WCMF at the time.

I guess it's still around.

But at the time, WCMF was what they

called an underground station, and it

didn't play by the rules.

I mean, it was great station, it just didn't play by the rules.

It had all kinds of alternative music

that you wouldn't hear anywhere else.

And it also had a lot of music that was basically,

a little dated but was still great music.

And I was talking with somebody from New York.

And they said, "Do you know in New York,

there is a gay radio hour?" and they said

the name of the call letters.

And I said, "What a great idea."

So I sat down--

and I was always pretty good in the phone originally.

I sat down and picked up the phone, and I called WCMF.

And I said, "I'd like to speak to somebody about starting

a gay radio hour."

And I thought, well, the phone would just go bang.

And instead, they said "Well, you want to speak to so-and-so,

he's our general manager.

Hang on, we'll get him."

And of course, I'm sure this was like a one-room place.

And he got on the phone, and we talked about it.

And he said an hour a week.

And I said, "Yep."

And he said, "Yeah, I'd like to meet with you."

And I said, well, "I don't think I'm the person you

should meet with.

I think really, you need somebody

that sort of understands music and like that,

and that's not really my bend."

And he said, "Well, can you pass this

through the channels, whatever, and have somebody

get a hold of us?"

And I said, "Certainly."

So I got a hold of-- and I think it was Patti Evans that I

told about it.

And I think Patti was the first one

to grab it and start running with it.

But then there was somebody else involved.

Can't even remember the guy's name.

But there was a guy involved too that was a DJ,

and Patti was a DJ for it.

And it was one hour a week.

But again, the significance of it

is teenagers sitting at home, knowing

he's gay, doesn't know who to tell,

doesn't know who to talk to about it,

feels totally alone, totally isolated, and guess what?

There's the gay radio hour.

And that's pretty incredible.

I never heard a gay radio hour, you know?

Yeah, that's all pretty incredible.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Just on site, do you remember off hand,

which year?

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure, that would have been about 1971.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So that early, yes?

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

Oh yeah, that early, yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And how long did it run, do you know?

JOHN W. GRACE: I really don't.

I don't think it was long-lived, actually.

Because CMF got bought, for one thing.

And then became much more of a conventional radio station.

I mean, CMF, when it was underground, was pretty wild.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You had opportunities

to work on Tim Mains campaign?

JOHN W. GRACE: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, can you talk to me about that?

JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.

When we had the restaurant, Tim was running for mayor

at that time, right?

NELSON BALDO: Was it mayor or councilman?

JOHN W. GRACE: Maybe it was councilman.

NELSON BALDO: I think it was councilman.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

And we donated the food, and we did all the prep work and that.

We basically got together with Marge David,

who has Cheesy Eddie's.

She donated cheesecakes, and like that.

And we put together the catering and then that.

And we did it up at Geva.

NELSON BALDO: It was fun.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

NELSON BALDO: Lorraine was there.

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.

And it was a fundraiser for Tim.

And this, again, was a big deal.

I mean, here he is going to be a councilman, hopefully.

And that's a big deal.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It was a big deal

because first openly gay man--

JOHN W. GRACE: Absolutely.

We had had gay mayors.

The city of Rochester never wanted to admit it,

but we had had gay mayors.

There was Stephen May, and who was the other?

Barry, Mayor Barry.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Peter, wasn't it?

JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, Peter Barry.

And Peter Barry used to have gay parties at his house over

on Monroe Avenue.

I guess they were drag balls, really,

but it was the sort of thing that nobody talked about.

And Stephen May was gay, but you would have never known it.

And everybody in the gay community

used to call him Suzie Wong, because Stephen May

has that little bit of a Chinese look to him.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Not so politically correct back then,

were we?

JOHN W. GRACE: Well, when Bette Midler came to town

and did a show here at the auditorium,

she referred to him as Suzie Wong.

And I'm sure he did not like it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's so funny.

You guys, you've seen a lot.

If you could just kind of encompass

it one statement, really, how have things changed?

What have you seen change along the way?

But more importantly, where do you think we still need to go?

JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I think one of the things that

is happening right now is we're becoming more mainstream.

But in the same vein, we are becoming more--

I hate to use the word socialized.

But I guess, socialized in the straight community.

And I think number one, that may actually

hurt some of the gay people.

I mean, it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense

to me to all of a sudden declare yourself

white almost-heterosexual and move

to the suburbs sort of thing.

I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Because as a gay person, you are living outside of your culture,

and it gives you a tremendous amount

of insight into your culture.

And I think it's the one thing that spurs

creativity in a gay person.

Because most gay people that I know

are incredibly creative people.

And I think it's one of the reasons.

I mean, you are living outside of that culture,