Video Interview, John W. Grace and Nelson Baldo, August 16, 2012

  • CREW: OK, and good.
  • I'll get sound levels from the start.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, John, first and foremost,
  • when we put your name on screen, give us the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name, and how
  • you want it to read on screen.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: OK, it's John, J-O-H-N W. Grace, G-R-A-C-E.
  • W's the middle initial, of course.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And Nelson?
  • NELSON BALDO: Nelson, N-E-L-S-O-N, Baldo, B-A-L-D-O.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Great.
  • The first thing I'm going to start out
  • is just kind of talk about what it's
  • like to be young and gay in--
  • I think it was what, 1960s, your kind of coming of age?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, well--
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I mean, that's when I came to Rochester,
  • was in the sixties.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I forget, how about how old
  • were you during that?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I would have just
  • gotten out of the service, so I would have been twenty-one.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's just start there
  • in the 1960s for both of you.
  • We'll start with you first, John.
  • Gay life in the 1960s-- what was there?
  • And what was available to people back then?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well really, the only thing
  • that was going on in the 1960s and the gay life
  • was the gay bars.
  • But the gay bars at that time were all
  • owned by straight people, and mostly by mafia-type people.
  • I mean, there were no gay bar owners.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But how was that for you socially?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: There was no social life for gay people
  • outside of the bar.
  • And I mean, the bars were pickup places, is what they were.
  • But other than that, there was absolutely nothing
  • to do to socialize.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you actively seeking
  • other alternatives to meet people socially?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: There was no way to do that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No way to do that.
  • NELSON BALDO: No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, what about you?
  • Where were things at for you in the 1960s?
  • NELSON BALDO: Well, I guess it was about the same,
  • that that was the only focal point for gay people at all.
  • It was pretty repressive.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, that was my next question to you--
  • JOHN W. GRACE: See, that's where we were very lucky.
  • Because I got out of the service when
  • I was twenty-one, after four years in the Air Force.
  • And Nelson had got out of the service just the year before.
  • NELSON BALDO: Right.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: And we met almost probably,
  • within me being in Rochester a month.
  • We met, and we just have always been together.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, you were both of you
  • kind of lucky you found each other.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Very lucky.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yes.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: And then what happened
  • is we had an apartment and all that.
  • We had a circle of friends.
  • And really, what happened is the way you socialized in that most
  • through entertaining in your home.
  • People came over for dinner, or just
  • to hang out and listen to music and like that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: The answer's from both of you
  • here, because I know you both had kind of had
  • similar experiences.
  • We'll step back a little bit.
  • Talk to me about being gay and in the military
  • in the late fifties, sixties.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Think something most people do not
  • understand about that period of time in the military
  • is that if they found out you were gay,
  • the first thing that would happen
  • is they would give you something called a Section 8 discharge.
  • Now they didn't even have to catch you
  • in a sexual act or anything.
  • But they would give you a Section 8 discharge.
  • And if you got a Section 8 discharge,
  • you simply did not work again in your life.
  • I mean, if you did, you were relegated to jobs
  • that nobody wanted.
  • Because this would always come up at job interviews.
  • And as soon as it did, the only thing
  • that a Section 8 meant was it meant you were queer.
  • And nobody hired gay people.
  • That's the way it was.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • But I always thought it was an open secret.
  • I mean, where I was stationed, everyone knew who was gay.
  • I mean, I'm sure they all knew I was gay,
  • and I knew who else was gay.
  • But you really didn't do anything about it, at least
  • in the service.
  • And outside of that, I don't know?
  • Did you ever go to-- you went to gay bars in England.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I was in England, and I did go to gay bars.
  • And as a matter of fact, that is the first time
  • I ever really made a connection with a man other
  • than a sexual relationship.
  • I met a guy, he was English.
  • And I fell madly in love with him.
  • And we spent probably about a year together.
  • And then I got discharged and came home.
  • And that experience-- when I got discharged,
  • I promised myself that I would never again
  • allow anybody to intimidate me because of my sexuality.
  • I mean, that was just a promise that I made to myself.
  • And I've lived by that to this day.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to jump way ahead, which I usually
  • don't do it in an interview.
  • But this is actually a good moment to ask this question.
  • When Clinton signed off on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy,
  • do you remember that day?
  • And what were your feelings about that?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I thought it was a cop out.
  • I thought, why are you doing this?
  • Why not just legalize gays in the military?
  • Of course, having spent--
  • and same for you--
  • all that time in Europe, they treated it very differently
  • in the European military.
  • NELSON BALDO: Right.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Because it was non-issue.
  • I mean, it was simply non-issue.
  • NELSON BALDO: And that had changed already.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • NELSON BALDO: I think for the Brits and--
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Oh, for the Brits, definitely.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And the Israeli army.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: The Germans.
  • NELSON BALDO: Right, yeah.
  • It just made no sense.
  • But it was a step.
  • Everything's a little step.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
  • OK, well, let's jump back.
  • You're in Rochester, 1960s.
  • Not much to do but go out to bars,
  • maybe have some friends over at the house.
  • At some point-- and you specifically, John, I think--
  • got involved with the university and the Gay Liberation Front.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • I mean, what really happened was in the sixties, Stonewall.
  • And when Stonewall happened, it sort of opened your eyes up
  • to like, well, we really don't have
  • to put up with this anymore.
  • And we got talking, small groups of us amongst our so friends,
  • like Danny Scipione, I can tell you.
  • Buron Borg.
  • We all got talking amongst ourselves,
  • saying well, now, why isn't something
  • happening in Rochester?
  • And we started formulating the idea.
  • I mean, we went to Danny's house,
  • and we started formulating the idea of some kind of gay group.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I've got that note coming up.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But I don't want to pass
  • on this, just some other notes I'm just looking at here first.
  • Again, about gay life in Rochester in the 1960s
  • and seventies, I want to talk about some of the things
  • that you guys witnessed and experienced, police
  • tactics and policies.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
  • There used to be a place called Martha's.
  • Or maybe it was Dick's 43.
  • They were always changing the name back and forth.
  • NELSON BALDO: I think it was Dick's 43 back there.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: At that time?
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: It was the Gruttadauria family.
  • And the police would come.
  • And they would come in, and they would unplug the jukebox.
  • Because everybody-- the guys--
  • would have been dancing.
  • But as soon as you knew the police were coming,
  • everybody stopped dancing.
  • They would unplug the jukebox.
  • And I mean, this was very open.
  • They would just go to the bar, and the bartender
  • would open the cash register, get some money out, give it
  • to the police officer.
  • He would walk over, plug the jukebox back in, and walk out.
  • And it was a common occurrence.
  • And to go a little further with that--
  • because something else interesting happened.
  • Eventually, the gay bars got owned by gay people.
  • And when that happened, there was no more of the police
  • coming in and doing that.
  • But instead, what the police started doing was coming in,
  • and they could tell who was closeted
  • and who wasn't and that.
  • And they would arrest--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought until the squeaky wheel
  • goes by.
  • (pause in recording)
  • CREW: Sit back there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's take it back a little further.
  • Talk about that transition that you
  • made from gay bars being owned by heterosexuals
  • to finally becoming gay-owned.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Right.
  • There became a point where the gay bars
  • got owned by gay people.
  • And one of the first one's was Jim's, and it was on--
  • that's what?
  • NELSON BALDO: Sam's Square.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • Yeah.
  • The square there.
  • And what the police then started doing-- because they couldn't
  • come in and unplug the jukebox, because nobody
  • was paying any attention to the police then.
  • They'd come through the door, and everybody'd
  • continue to dance, and we'd whistle at them
  • and everything else.
  • Instead, the police started doing
  • was they started arresting the people standing around
  • that they could tell were very closeted.
  • And they would arrest them for loitering,
  • and they would leave with them.
  • And then we would never really see those people again.
  • But it started filtering back up.
  • What was happening is, after they got this poor man
  • in the car, who probably had maybe a family with one child,
  • or something like that.
  • Or maybe he was a priest, or maybe he was a policeman.
  • Whatever.
  • They would say to him, well, for a certain amount of money,
  • we can make this disappear.
  • And what they would do, of course,
  • is pay them a certain amount of money.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure, sure.
  • So when did you start seeing things change a little bit
  • with the police department?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, shortly after, Gay Liberation
  • got formed at the U of R. Because it was not
  • going to go anywhere meeting in somebody's living room.
  • And it started at the U of R. And all of us
  • sort of gravitated to it.
  • Now we couldn't really be members,
  • because we weren't students.
  • But that's when it really started to change.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK we'll move up to that point then.
  • Because I do want to get to the point
  • that even before the Gay Liberation Front at the U of R,
  • you were meeting at Eva Scipione's house with Danny.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me that story.
  • Tell me one, what first drove you
  • to start some sort of discussions about this issue?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And then just tell me--
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Again, Stonegate had happened.
  • NELSON BALDO: Stonewall.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Stonewall.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Stonewall, excuse me, had happened.
  • And I mean, that was a very deciding thing for gay people.
  • And it was like, well, if they can do that in New York
  • and change things, why can't we here?
  • And I think the other thing--
  • I know for me, personally-- was they were saying
  • that gays were sick and that.
  • Well, I got news for you, I never felt sick.
  • And I mean, I used to say that to them all the time.
  • I used to say, I don't know what the hell wrong with you,
  • I don't feel sick.
  • I think everything I do is perfectly normal.
  • I mean, I used to say man is not capable of doing
  • an unnormal act.
  • He's just not capable.
  • If he can do it, it's normal.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about those days
  • at Eva's and Danny's house.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
  • There was a very small group of us, four or five.
  • And we would get together and just
  • talk about how we could make change, what we could do,
  • and envision a future when we wouldn't even need it.
  • And then the U of R came around and started a chapter
  • out there, and they called it the Gay Liberation Front.
  • And of course, we had no place, really, to meet.
  • I mean, Eva Scipione, Danny's mother,
  • was getting to the point where she
  • wanted her living room back.
  • So we all gravitated to the U of R, and started going to there.
  • But like I said, we could not-- as being non-U of R people,
  • we were limited to what our involvement could be.
  • But we were very necessary in the movement
  • there, because we were not closeted, really.
  • And they sort of had to be, because the student life
  • out there was still very tragic.
  • These students, if they found out other students were gay,
  • they weren't good to them.
  • Same with professors out there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, as this starts happening,
  • what's your involvement in it?
  • NELSON BALDO: I was just involved peripherally because
  • of work, a job that I had.
  • But I went to the first dance, I remember.
  • And I remember the kids outside the door
  • looking at us as though we were performing monkeys inside.
  • It was so odd.
  • I don't know what they expected to see.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, let's talk about that.
  • Let's talk about that first gay dance.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: It was great.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What was it like?
  • And tell me again, what was the motive behind it?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, what was the motive behind it?
  • To have a dance.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Actually, it wasn't just a dance,
  • it was a whole weekend.
  • And there were seminars.
  • We did seminars about what it was to be gay, and like that.
  • We addressed the youth problem.
  • A lot of things like that, we addressed
  • in different little consciousness groups.
  • And we had a Speakers Bureau that we formed at that time.
  • And we would go out then and speak
  • at different schools and that.
  • And again, this is where not many
  • of the students from the U of R would really want to do that.
  • Because I mean, they were relying
  • on their parents for money and that
  • to continue their education.
  • If their parents found out that one
  • of the things they were doing was going around and telling
  • everybody they were gay, they would probably
  • cut the money off.
  • So I mean, it was really the few of us
  • that were just willing to say, we don't care,
  • we're going to go out there.
  • We're going to do the speaking engagements.
  • We just don't care.
  • And I mean, when you start going into the U of R,
  • and speaking to the professors and that--
  • I mean, I can remember going--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just waiting for this cart to go by again.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Oh.
  • Is that a refreshment cart?
  • I'm ready.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know.
  • NELSON BALDO: I don't think so.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I think it's probably
  • moving furniture or something.
  • I think they have hot coffee and salt.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, let's pick it up to some of the activities
  • that you were doing were actually
  • speaking to professors.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, yeah.
  • I mean, one of the things that we did
  • is we would go and speak to the people in the psychology
  • department, in the psychiatry department, the interns
  • and that.
  • And the way we did it, you would go up,
  • and you would sit in front of them,
  • and just open yourself up to questions.
  • And this goes back to--
  • I was pretty tough at that time about it.
  • Because I did not like them telling me that I
  • needed psychological help.
  • That did not go down with me at all.
  • And I would argue with them, and tell them
  • that I thought they were crazy.
  • I didn't think there was anything wrong with me.
  • And then finally, of course, they
  • accepted it, and took it off the list of diseases
  • within the department.
  • And that was a very major breakthrough.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, so that was actually
  • going to be my next question was in these Speakers Bureaus
  • and these activities and conferences you
  • were having with the psychological professors, what
  • kind of reactions were you getting?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: It was a mixture.
  • It was a mixture.
  • A lot of it was very positive from them.
  • But there were people that it was not.
  • I can remember going to a temple.
  • And we spoke at a temple in Brighton,
  • I can't even tell you which one.
  • And there were some people there that were
  • incredibly intelligent people.
  • And a couple of them, when we talked about different things
  • within the gay culture and that, would sit there and just go,
  • well, I just wish our culture was that open.
  • And they really understood where we were.
  • And of course, that's a form of therapy
  • for me to be able to sit there--
  • I mean, I can't believe what I worked
  • through in that time being there,
  • and just having to respond.
  • And Danny Scipione--
  • I mean, too bad Danny is dead.
  • But he was always at these too.
  • And he was a real firebrand.
  • I mean, Danny and I-- there was nothing to the two of us
  • to get up and start screaming at people
  • if they started giving us rough time.
  • We just didn't put up with it.
  • I remember one time a guy in the audience
  • stood up and said something about, "Well,
  • what really bothers me is when a straight man hits on me."
  • And I mean, I just stood up and looked him dead in the eyes,
  • and I said, "But you think you have
  • some kind of God-given right to hit on any woman moving,
  • don't you?"
  • And I mean, the audience went crazy.
  • They started applauding.
  • He just sort of slunk out.
  • We confronted a lot of them with what was going on.
  • Then I can also remember--
  • I didn't go to the one at Greece High School.
  • NELSON BALDO: There was a riot.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, the students
  • started rioting because gay people were in their school.
  • NELSON BALDO: Timmy brought them in.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, Timmy Mains brought them in.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to actually get back
  • to the first gay dance at Rochester.
  • I want to get either one of you--
  • describe for me just the experience
  • of walking into that, walking into the dance.
  • What was it like?
  • And what did you see?
  • What did you feel?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I think it gave an incredible feeling that you
  • were arriving as a person.
  • Because here all of a sudden, you were walking into a room
  • where you could pretty much--
  • you did not have to hide your affection
  • for whoever you were with.
  • All your friends were there.
  • It was really a different thing.
  • Remember that at that time, Nelson and I
  • had been together--
  • I don't know, probably about five years.
  • We could not openly show our affection in any way.
  • You just could not do that.
  • That's a very uncomfortable situation,
  • when you love somebody and you cannot in any way show
  • your affection.
  • That's not right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: How about you, Nelson?
  • And what were you feeling that night?
  • NELSON BALDO: I think I was a little apprehensive, just
  • arriving there.
  • Because it was just weird with all the people looking in.
  • And as I said, I don't know what they expected to see.
  • But we all looked pretty much the same as they did.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, I don't know what they expected.
  • NELSON BALDO: Hippies with hair and flannel shirts,
  • and all the rest of it.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: And that in itself
  • becomes threatening to them.
  • Because they expect something different.
  • They expect you to really fit a stereotype or something
  • like that.
  • NELSON BALDO: Oh yeah, especially back then.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, and when you don't, you
  • look just like the person next door, that's
  • very threatening to people.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah, but it worked both ways.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • NELSON BALDO: There was a bar down on State Street,
  • and two women owned it.
  • They wouldn't serve me, because I was a hippie.
  • And they thought I was there to hustle or whatever.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • NELSON BALDO: But they would not serve me,
  • because I wasn't gay to them.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: To them, right.
  • Exactly.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, speaking of dances,
  • let's talk about Top of the Plaza, and that dance there.
  • Tell me the story like I've never heard it before.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
  • We were really tired of the police
  • coming in to the gay bars and making us stop dancing.
  • I mean, this was really getting old.
  • And we had to do something about it.
  • And we came up with the idea that well,
  • if we can't dance in our bars, then
  • we're going to dance in theirs.
  • So a whole group of us got together,
  • and we were going to arrive there at a special time,
  • and we were all going to have partners.
  • And my partner was Liz Bell.
  • And she was my, "date" when I arrived there.
  • And we purposely all dressed very, very much
  • like straight people on a date.
  • And it was probably about ten or fifteen of us couples.
  • And the idea was that we would all go out and start dancing
  • on the floor to the music.
  • And we had a signal.
  • And when it happened, I would leave Liz and start dancing
  • with a man, and Liz would leave me and start dancing
  • with a woman.
  • And at the same time, we had people there with leaflets
  • to hand out.
  • And it was about why we were doing this,
  • that the police were in our bars,
  • arresting us for dancing together and like that.
  • And we were saying things, like this is the home of Susan B.
  • Anthony and that.
  • And you've just got to understand,
  • if we can't dance in our bars, we're coming after you.
  • We're going to dance in yours.
  • That's the way it is, it's guerrilla theater.
  • We're after you.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What kind of reaction did you get?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: We got thrown out.
  • Yeah, we got thrown out right away.
  • NELSON BALDO: Wow.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And how did that make you feel?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I felt great, because I thought
  • we had really made a statement.
  • Up until then-- you got to remember
  • that up there was all these attorneys, and judges and that.
  • And that's where they went with their wives and that.
  • And it was all very quiet, and sedate, and very proper.
  • And they had never really brushed
  • against anything like this, and we just threw it in their face.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
  • Nelson, were you there?
  • NELSON BALDO: No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No?
  • OK.
  • NELSON BALDO: I was not.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk about some of the people
  • that you were working with in those days with the Speakers
  • Bureaus, and the gay activism events like Top
  • of the Plaza and that.
  • If I throw some names out at you,
  • I just want to kind of get your opinion
  • of who these people were, and what they were like.
  • Remember, Karen Hagberg?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure, sure.
  • Karen's still a dear friend of mine.
  • I mean, Karen-- there was RJ Alcala, Danny Scipione.
  • There was Richard Reesen's lover--
  • NELSON BALDO: Oh.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Joseph Johns, there we go.
  • NELSON BALDO: Joseph.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Joseph Johns.
  • Well, Liz Bell.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, talk to me about Karen.
  • What was she like to work with?
  • And what kind of person was she?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Karen?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Karen was a lot of fun,
  • but she used to be absolutely amazed by me.
  • Because I just was very, very out.
  • And she would say to me things like, "Well, you treat
  • people like a sexual object."
  • And she'd say, "But somehow, that's
  • OK, because they treat you like a sexual object."
  • And I would say, "Well, that's pretty much what it's about,
  • isn't it, Karen?"
  • Karen didn't live far from us either.
  • And I think Karen had begun to really understand my psyche, as
  • far as I was not going to be tied into a lot of convention,
  • and I never have been.
  • And sometimes that's good, sometimes that's very bad.
  • And when it's very bad, you just have to take the knocks.
  • And that's the way it was.
  • But I was not going to be tied into a lot of convention,
  • because I don't believe in it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about RJ.
  • Talk to me about like I've never heard of him before.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
  • RJ was again, U of R. And at that time--
  • oh!
  • At that time, he was studying the baroque oboe, I believe,
  • at the U of R.
  • NELSON BALDO: It was oboe.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • And I'm trying of remember.
  • Karen-- I don't know what Karen was.
  • But they were all out of the Eastman, OK?
  • And RJ lived with Karen Hagberg.
  • Karen had a house, and there was about three or four students
  • lived there with her.
  • And RJ was always a lot of energy, a lot of energy.
  • Still is today.
  • And I never did many speaking engagements with RJ.
  • But then again, I don't think most of the U of R students
  • did a lot of the speaking engagements.
  • And that was really my main thrust
  • was the speaking engagements.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you work with Marshall Goldman?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yes.
  • Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, talk to me about who he was
  • and what he did.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Again, Marshall was a U of R student.
  • And I always thought Marshall was, at first,
  • a little bit of a lost soul.
  • And I know a lot of it came from him being gay and coming
  • from a wealthy Jewish family.
  • And I think that they just didn't know what
  • to make of him as a gay man.
  • And I think it caused an awful lot of problems for Marshall,
  • and he had acceptance problems because of all of it.
  • But of course, in the gay family,
  • you just pull people in.
  • And I mean--
  • OK, so you've had this rough time with it
  • all, and people haven't treated you right.
  • But we're all family, and we stay together.
  • And I think that meant an awful lot to Marshall, I really do.
  • I haven't seen Marshall in a lot of years.
  • And I do mean a lot, like thirty.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: He's out on the west coast, isn't he?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I have no idea, to tell you the truth.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: How about Patti Evans?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Patti, she was always my fave.
  • Patti, again, was U of R. And when
  • we danced at the Top of the Plaza at that time,
  • if my memory is correct, it was Patti that wrote the leaflet
  • and had it produced.
  • And then I think she was the one that was handing it out.
  • But Patti was always there, and Patti was a real good organizer
  • too.
  • She was very active in the community.
  • And didn't Patti start coming into the restaurant
  • with her father?
  • NELSON BALDO: I think so.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's see.
  • How about Whitey LeBlanc?
  • NELSON BALDO: Whitey!
  • JOHN W. GRACE: There we go.
  • Whitey, again, he was always at the meetings,
  • always there pitching in.
  • Doing, doing, doing.
  • And I haven't seen Whitey in a few years.
  • But again, there was a man that just lived
  • his life very out and open, and didn't really care
  • what people thought.
  • And that was very important.
  • Because you take when I was pre-service,
  • I didn't even know about gay people.
  • And I remember there was a Look or Life magazine,
  • and on the front of it, it had about the underground gay life
  • in New York City.
  • And it was actually the first time
  • I ever heard of the word gay associated with homosexuals.
  • And that meant a lot to me when I
  • saw that, because it opened up my eyes, like,
  • well, there's a whole community of us.
  • I'm not this real weird little freak,
  • there's a whole community of us.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: In your activities with the Gay
  • Liberation Front, which eventually
  • became Gay Alliance when it moved off campus,
  • did you realize at the time of significance
  • of what you were doing?
  • And did you have--
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --that kind of fore vision?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, I did.
  • And Danny Scipione and I, we used to--
  • Danny and I were very close friends,
  • and Danny and I used to talk about it.
  • And we used to always say to each other,
  • the whole purpose of what we're doing
  • is to become extinct, that we won't be needed.
  • Everything we're doing is leading to one place
  • where gays are so accepted that our organization and all that
  • simply will not be needed.
  • And the day will come.
  • So yes, we did understand what we were doing.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
  • I was going to ask a question.
  • It's an unfair question-- but the day will come.
  • When do you think it will come?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: It's not here yet.
  • It really is not here yet.
  • And yeah, I believe it will come.
  • But it's not just that attitudes and values are hard to change.
  • It's also it's ingrained in our legal system and everything
  • else.
  • I mean, it's really difficult.
  • I've had a rather bad experience with a US Attorney,
  • and I can't get anybody to do anything about it.
  • They simply-- so what, he called you a queer, big deal,
  • you know?
  • That sort of thing, but it is a big deal.
  • And I keep writing my letters to them and that.
  • But it's changing, but it's still not there yet.
  • I mean, what the hell?
  • We can't even get married in every state in the union.
  • Now that's crazy.
  • And again, if you think about that in itself--
  • we can marry in some states, can't marry in other states.
  • What a mess it's becoming.
  • I mean, they are creating such an absolute mess
  • that after it all gels and becomes that anybody
  • can get married anywhere, then it's
  • going to take a very long period of time
  • trying to undo what they've done to keep us from doing that.
  • I mean, it's stupid.
  • It's stupid.
  • Same thing that I thought about Clinton
  • and Don't Ask, Don't Tell--
  • why?
  • And everybody would look at us as gay people
  • and say, just be patient.
  • I'm not going to be patient.
  • I mean, that was my attitude, why should I be patient?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
  • I want to talk about some of the fun things.
  • You came up with the idea of doing the radio show.
  • Can you talk to me about that, about the culmination
  • of that idea, and what came of that idea?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • Well, we had a radio station in town called WCMF at the time.
  • I guess it's still around.
  • But at the time, WCMF was what they
  • called an underground station, and it
  • didn't play by the rules.
  • I mean, it was great station, it just didn't play by the rules.
  • It had all kinds of alternative music
  • that you wouldn't hear anywhere else.
  • And it also had a lot of music that was basically,
  • a little dated but was still great music.
  • And I was talking with somebody from New York.
  • And they said, "Do you know in New York,
  • there is a gay radio hour?" and they said
  • the name of the call letters.
  • And I said, "What a great idea."
  • So I sat down--
  • and I was always pretty good in the phone originally.
  • I sat down and picked up the phone, and I called WCMF.
  • And I said, "I'd like to speak to somebody about starting
  • a gay radio hour."
  • And I thought, well, the phone would just go bang.
  • And instead, they said "Well, you want to speak to so-and-so,
  • he's our general manager.
  • Hang on, we'll get him."
  • And of course, I'm sure this was like a one-room place.
  • And he got on the phone, and we talked about it.
  • And he said an hour a week.
  • And I said, "Yep."
  • And he said, "Yeah, I'd like to meet with you."
  • And I said, well, "I don't think I'm the person you
  • should meet with.
  • I think really, you need somebody
  • that sort of understands music and like that,
  • and that's not really my bend."
  • And he said, "Well, can you pass this
  • through the channels, whatever, and have somebody
  • get a hold of us?"
  • And I said, "Certainly."
  • So I got a hold of-- and I think it was Patti Evans that I
  • told about it.
  • And I think Patti was the first one
  • to grab it and start running with it.
  • But then there was somebody else involved.
  • Can't even remember the guy's name.
  • But there was a guy involved too that was a DJ,
  • and Patti was a DJ for it.
  • And it was one hour a week.
  • But again, the significance of it
  • is teenagers sitting at home, knowing
  • he's gay, doesn't know who to tell,
  • doesn't know who to talk to about it,
  • feels totally alone, totally isolated, and guess what?
  • There's the gay radio hour.
  • And that's pretty incredible.
  • I never heard a gay radio hour, you know?
  • Yeah, that's all pretty incredible.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just on site, do you remember off hand,
  • which year?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure, that would have been about 1971.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So that early, yes?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • Oh yeah, that early, yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And how long did it run, do you know?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I really don't.
  • I don't think it was long-lived, actually.
  • Because CMF got bought, for one thing.
  • And then became much more of a conventional radio station.
  • I mean, CMF, when it was underground, was pretty wild.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You had opportunities
  • to work on Tim Mains campaign?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, can you talk to me about that?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Sure.
  • When we had the restaurant, Tim was running for mayor
  • at that time, right?
  • NELSON BALDO: Was it mayor or councilman?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Maybe it was councilman.
  • NELSON BALDO: I think it was councilman.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • And we donated the food, and we did all the prep work and that.
  • We basically got together with Marge David,
  • who has Cheesy Eddie's.
  • She donated cheesecakes, and like that.
  • And we put together the catering and then that.
  • And we did it up at Geva.
  • NELSON BALDO: It was fun.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
  • NELSON BALDO: Lorraine was there.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • And it was a fundraiser for Tim.
  • And this, again, was a big deal.
  • I mean, here he is going to be a councilman, hopefully.
  • And that's a big deal.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It was a big deal
  • because first openly gay man--
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Absolutely.
  • We had had gay mayors.
  • The city of Rochester never wanted to admit it,
  • but we had had gay mayors.
  • There was Stephen May, and who was the other?
  • Barry, Mayor Barry.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Peter, wasn't it?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, Peter Barry.
  • And Peter Barry used to have gay parties at his house over
  • on Monroe Avenue.
  • I guess they were drag balls, really,
  • but it was the sort of thing that nobody talked about.
  • And Stephen May was gay, but you would have never known it.
  • And everybody in the gay community
  • used to call him Suzie Wong, because Stephen May
  • has that little bit of a Chinese look to him.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Not so politically correct back then,
  • were we?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, when Bette Midler came to town
  • and did a show here at the auditorium,
  • she referred to him as Suzie Wong.
  • And I'm sure he did not like it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's so funny.
  • You guys, you've seen a lot.
  • If you could just kind of encompass
  • it one statement, really, how have things changed?
  • What have you seen change along the way?
  • But more importantly, where do you think we still need to go?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I think one of the things that
  • is happening right now is we're becoming more mainstream.
  • But in the same vein, we are becoming more--
  • I hate to use the word socialized.
  • But I guess, socialized in the straight community.
  • And I think number one, that may actually
  • hurt some of the gay people.
  • I mean, it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
  • to me to all of a sudden declare yourself
  • white almost-heterosexual and move
  • to the suburbs sort of thing.
  • I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me.
  • Because as a gay person, you are living outside of your culture,
  • and it gives you a tremendous amount
  • of insight into your culture.
  • And I think it's the one thing that spurs
  • creativity in a gay person.
  • Because most gay people that I know
  • are incredibly creative people.
  • And I think it's one of the reasons.
  • I mean, you are living outside of that culture,
  • and you really get insight into it.
  • And you're not bound by the things like--
  • I mean, I know religion.
  • I have never had any use for organized religion.
  • I just haven't, and I've always thought that they--
  • in fact, organized religion--
  • always was trying to control me and control my sexuality.
  • And so I just think you're really different,
  • and I'm hoping that we don't become
  • just that blend of white heterosexual
  • that's out there in the suburbs.
  • NELSON BALDO: And it's happening.
  • I saw a headline recently, something about
  • are gays becoming boring?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah, exactly.
  • NELSON BALDO: And I would have to say that they are.
  • Because the great mix is not going on any longer.
  • If you were traveling and had to find out
  • where the local bar was, you went in,
  • and you would meet a doctor, or you would meet a carpenter,
  • or you'd meet a truck driver.
  • And that's how it was.
  • But now, I think the stratas setting up,
  • where all the educated men are together.
  • And I see that all the time.
  • And I think gays are in danger of becoming boring,
  • just because of that.
  • There's not the mixture anymore--
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • NELSON BALDO: --the way it used to be.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, if you were
  • to speak to the young gay people today,
  • what would you tell them as far as what they should
  • be doing to champion their--
  • I don't know if they championed their rights,
  • but make life better for themselves?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, I think probably,
  • the most important thing right now that we have to do
  • is straighten out the marriage mess.
  • That's got to get straightened out,
  • because it's not only about getting married.
  • It's the whole legal system that goes with it.
  • For instance, we've been together forty-five years.
  • If I was to die--
  • I mean, now we have it controlled
  • under living wills and that.
  • But who knows?
  • Can they be broke?
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah, it's very difficult.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: You just don't know.
  • And so I think it's incredibly important that that's the one
  • thing they really work on.
  • There seems to be a fascination within the gay community
  • with adopting children.
  • I've never had that desire.
  • I do have a son.
  • But I've never had that desire to raise a child,
  • or have a child in the home.
  • It's not something I find the least bit appealing.
  • But there seems to be an awful attraction to that with people.
  • And I think they need to be a little bit careful about that.
  • Because once again, I think that they're
  • making changes that they may not fully understand, I really do.
  • And unless we can get the society to a point where
  • it truly doesn't matter--
  • but I don't think we're there yet--
  • and I think it's a little difficult on some
  • of the children.
  • I really do.
  • And life's hard enough.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So years from now,
  • if future generations look back at all our history here,
  • what do you want them to know most about who you were?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Who I was?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, and what you've done.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: They're not going to know who I am.
  • I mean, that's--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But what do you want them to know about you?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: About me?
  • About what--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What you've done to kind of--
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Well, we were the pioneers
  • that started this whole thing.
  • I mean, that's what we were.
  • And yeah, I think it would be very nice if people knew that.
  • That's not going to happen.
  • There's people that have bigger names than me
  • that they all know about.
  • But I'll tell you the one thing that I thought was one
  • of the most progressive things we did together,
  • and that was open up the restaurant Iggy's.
  • And when we opened it, from day one,
  • we said anybody that walks through those doors
  • and knows how to behave and act accordingly
  • gets treated like anybody else, and we take care of them.
  • It doesn't matter what color they are, what sex they are,
  • anything else.
  • Green is green, and that's what the money is.
  • And that's how you deal with it.
  • And that's what we did.
  • And that's how we hired people and everything else.
  • I remember we went through a period
  • where we didn't have any African-Americans working
  • for us on the floor.
  • And we didn't like that.
  • We really did not like that.
  • And then we got a hold of a friend of ours, Josephine.
  • And she started working for us, and then
  • her sister, Chocolate Chip, and the two of them
  • were working for us.
  • But what happened at Iggy's was an extension of how we felt,
  • and what we wanted to see happen in the future.
  • That what did it matter?
  • And I mean, Iggy's was a pretty special place.
  • There could be a motorcycle couple
  • sitting at a table eating.
  • Right next to them could be a judge.
  • And then there could be two gay people, or two lesbians,
  • whatever.
  • And none of it mattered.
  • Everybody just got along, and it just didn't matter.
  • Well, guess what?
  • It's a big world.
  • That's just the way it should be.
  • It takes a lot of energy to hate.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you ever public with the fact
  • or promoted the fact that Iggy's was gay-owned business?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Oh, I don't think we had to.
  • NELSON BALDO: No.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: We were so well known.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • And we didn't feel that we should be doing that, either.
  • Because then you start to scare away your straight people too.
  • We wanted everybody there.
  • We wanted it known that we were a cosmopolitan restaurant.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, what about you?
  • How do you want history to reflect upon your life?
  • NELSON BALDO: I think, probably, much the same.
  • I remember an incident with a woman who worked for us.
  • Her younger brother asked to speak to John
  • and myself up in the office.
  • And I thought it was so strange.
  • What could he possibly want?
  • And he decided to come out.
  • He had not been out to his family.
  • And he thanked us for living our lives openly.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • NELSON BALDO: And that meant a lot to me.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Pretty rewarding, yeah.
  • NELSON BALDO: Yeah.
  • And I think that, more than anything.
  • And we never made a big deal out of it.
  • It's like, this is it.
  • Just deal with it or walk away.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: Yeah.
  • We never flaunted it, we never hid it.
  • NELSON BALDO: No.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I mean, it's just--
  • there it is.
  • And what I discovered by being like that
  • is that people got to like you, really as a person,
  • they got to like you, and then they
  • made the discovery that you're gay, well,
  • now they got a conflict.
  • And I mean, if you're not backing away from it,
  • it's their conflict, not yours.
  • And it becomes very quick apparent to them
  • that it's their problem, they're the one with the problem.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Similar question, just asked
  • in a slightly different way.
  • I'm going to ask you both individually.
  • But John, I'll start with you.
  • Over the years of your work of activism,
  • and political campaigns, and speakers bureaus and all that,
  • what do you think has been your most significant contribution?
  • What are you most proud of?
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I would say just living my life,
  • and being very out, being very open,
  • and being very out about what I am.
  • And I mean with everybody.
  • Just this is it.
  • You tell me you don't know somebody gay?
  • Guess what, you do right here.
  • And that is, I think, my biggest contribution to this world,
  • is that even back as far as I can remember,
  • when we were declared to be psychotic
  • and everything else, I never thought that.
  • And I just never acted that way.
  • And I think that's the biggest part of it.
  • I think we changed--
  • and I really think that a lot of it
  • happened here with the Gay Liberation Front in Rochester--
  • we changed the definition of homosexuality
  • in the psychiatry world.
  • I really believe it started here.
  • Because we did a lot of work with the students
  • who were psychiatrists, and that are becoming psychiatrists then
  • at the U of R, making them understand.
  • I mean, I used to sit there and say, I
  • would like to know what I do so differently in bed that you
  • don't do.
  • I mean, could you please tell me?
  • What do you do that I don't do?
  • And I really think that that whole seed--
  • I mean, the U of R School of Psychiatry
  • is not small potatoes.
  • And I think it had a lot to do with it changing.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Nelson, what about you?
  • What are you most proud of?
  • NELSON BALDO: I think it's probably
  • along those lines, just that--
  • just lived very openly, and not made a big deal out of it.
  • Just better to be presented as a person first.
  • Remember, I was bartending downtown here,
  • and I worked with a guy, I trained him behind the bar.
  • And I worked with him for months.
  • And then he found out somehow that I was gay.
  • He was angry because I didn't tell him that I was gay.
  • And I was-- it seemed so odd to me.
  • Because I'm not going to meet someone and say hi, I'm Nelson,
  • and I'm gay.
  • What the hell does it matter?
  • You just, as John's saying, just live your life openly.
  • And you have no idea who you are influencing by doing that.
  • And I've been surprised and gratified quite often,
  • actually.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: And I actually think I deserve a medal.
  • For forty-five years, I put up with this one.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm not sure who deserves the medal.
  • NELSON BALDO: That's right.
  • Thank you.
  • JOHN W. GRACE: I think you're right on that one.
  • I won't argue.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And on that note-- well, thank you both.
  • NELSON BALDO: Bu-duh-bum.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Brian will get those microphones off of you.
  • NELSON BALDO: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And so, before you go--