Video Interview, Karen Hagberg, May 23, 2012

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, you're fine.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
  • CREW: And I am rolling, sir.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Karen.
  • If you would-- and this for a microphone check--
  • just give us the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
  • First time K-A-R-E-N. Last name H-A-G-B-E-R-G.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Sound good?
  • CREW: Sounds good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright.
  • So Karen, we're gonna just pick it right up with the Gay
  • Liberation Front.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Alright.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And talk to me about those first days.
  • How did you get involved?
  • When did you first hear about the Gay Liberation Front,
  • and what first piqued your interest?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I was a graduate student at the Eastman
  • School of Music, and I was actually in a relationship
  • when I first came to the Eastman School.
  • My first relationship, a totally closeted relationship.
  • And that relationship broke up shortly
  • after I got to the Eastman School.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
  • I'm sorry.
  • CREW: Yeah
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: We have this train go
  • by like every twenty minutes.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, I see.
  • OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Who knew there was so much
  • train traffic in Rochester.
  • (pause in recording)
  • You rolling again?
  • CREW: I am rolling.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • So let's just pick it back up from where we started.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
  • Yep.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Being a graduate student at Eastman.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
  • I was a graduate student at the Eastman School of Music,
  • and I had come here from Syracuse University
  • with the woman who was my first partner.
  • And about a year after we arrived here,
  • the relationship ended.
  • It was a totally closeted relationship.
  • And it ended mainly, because she couldn't live as a gay person.
  • So I went through this period of being involved with someone
  • who I really loved.
  • And then having this huge breakup that I couldn't talk
  • to anyone about.
  • I was in, emotionally, a very difficult time of my life.
  • It was really hard.
  • So I began to meet gay men at Eastman.
  • They were slightly out of the closet among themselves.
  • And that was, I think, my saving grace--
  • was that I made a couple of good friends,
  • a couple of gay male friends.
  • And through them began to meet some lesbian women
  • who weren't students, but who were in the community.
  • So I began to make forays into this very, very
  • closeted gay community.
  • It was soon after that time that Stonewall happened.
  • Bob Osborn out on the River Campus
  • started making little announcements
  • that we were going to start gay liberation.
  • I knew the minute I heard the word gay liberation,
  • this had to happen.
  • It just had to happen.
  • And I felt like I had to be a part of it,
  • because I really had--
  • I don't know, socially I had nothing else to do.
  • It was a feeling of being trapped as a gay person.
  • Like just being totally trapped in this strange closet thing,
  • and needing to get out.
  • And I heard those words and I thought, this was the way out.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's talk about those first days
  • of trying to form this gay liberation group.
  • What was it like?
  • What were some of the discussions
  • that were being had?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: We met on the River Campus,
  • and it was very furtive.
  • We'd go into the room, and we'd notice people
  • pacing the hall outside the room,
  • peering in, being afraid to come in, being glad we were
  • in the room.
  • And not pacing outside the room.
  • The discussions had to do with what--
  • it was the beginning of everything.
  • So here we are.
  • We're the Gay Liberation Front.
  • You know, it was a very combative kind of language
  • that we used in those days.
  • So what were we going to do?
  • Where were we going to go?
  • What were our battles going to be?
  • How are we going to do this thing?
  • And we had the Women's Movement.
  • We had the Civil Rights Movement as our models.
  • The conversation had to do with actions, and what actions would
  • we take to try to change things, because we had already
  • some role models for actions in those other movements.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember how
  • you came up with the name, Gay Liberation Front?
  • Why did you call it that?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I think just because it was combative,
  • intentionally.
  • And the word liberation was very important.
  • I don't know.
  • In those days, everything was a front.
  • I think at one point the Women's Liberation Front was a front.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And I want to go back just a little bit
  • to the beginning of what you just said.
  • Get more to the point of why did you think the Gay Liberation
  • Front was needed.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, in those days, in the old days--
  • you know growing up as a gay kid I felt like a total alien.
  • And first of all, there were no role models.
  • There was no language.
  • I didn't even know what I was.
  • And when I did realize that I was attracted to women,
  • and that this male-female heterosexual model didn't apply
  • to me, I really did-- people make a joke of this,
  • but I really did think I was the only one
  • in the world for a while.
  • Having no language to know about people like that.
  • And then as time went on, I began
  • to be aware of sort of a queer underclass of people
  • who came out at night, and lived in the bars.
  • You know it had nothing to do with my daily life.
  • There was no one in my daily life.
  • There was no one in normal life.
  • I mean I grew up in a suburb of Boston.
  • I went to the public high school.
  • And everybody was straight.
  • So there was nothing to hang onto, no context.
  • There was no context that was acceptable.
  • There were only words like deviant, and queer,
  • and pervert.
  • Even when I heard those words, I was
  • glad there were words, because I knew there were others.
  • But I didn't like those words.
  • So the need for just normalizing my experience.
  • First of all, realizing there were others like me,
  • and that the experience could be normalized.
  • I mean there were people in everyday life who were gay,
  • and somehow liberation meant acknowledging that.
  • And having a context for it, and having a reality for it.
  • Yeah.
  • As I say, the minute I heard the words Gay Liberation Front,
  • I thought, yeah this is the answer.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: The group gets started.
  • There's campus activities and stuff,
  • but you became really involved with the Speakers Bureaus.
  • Talk to me about you-- what were the Speaker Bureaus, and what
  • are you trying to achieve with those kind of programs.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, just what I was saying,
  • I think that people had no way to dialogue about this topic.
  • I mean we're talking about before psych classes had
  • anything but textbooks that described pathology.
  • That they didn't have gay people in the classrooms
  • to talk about their experience.
  • The gay people who might look like themselves, or be
  • like themselves.
  • They can just read in a textbook,
  • a book about the perverts and the deviants.
  • So that's the context we're talking about.
  • So it was apparent to me immediately that--
  • one thing we needed for liberation--
  • the main thing we needed for liberation
  • was to give, first of all, the world a kind of language
  • with which they could talk about us
  • that was some pathology, that wasn't negative,
  • that wasn't full of pejorative words.
  • That we created a way for curious people
  • to just talk with us.
  • And find out about us, and realize that we are them.
  • They are us.
  • Give students a way to come out of their own classroom.
  • It was just apparent to me that this is what
  • was totally not in the world.
  • And also, again, the model of the Women's Movement,
  • and the Civil Rights Movement, so much of those movements
  • had to do with consciousness raising, changing language,
  • making certain words not OK to use.
  • Coming up with a way to be in the world that was different.
  • Gay people had a rather unique relationship to the world,
  • in so far as, we were invisible.
  • I mean anyone can see an African-American face,
  • or a female face walking down the street,
  • but we had to announce ourselves in a big way,
  • or people didn't know who we were.
  • And I can't tell you how many people,
  • when I was being very vocal, when I was being on TV,
  • when I was being on the radio, when I was going out
  • doing the speaking engagements, how many people would say
  • to me, "OK, it's fine that you're gay,
  • but why do you have to be so public about it?
  • Why do you have to talk about it?
  • Why are you doing this?"
  • And it was because I was invisible.
  • The world made me straight if I didn't shout it in their face.
  • They still do.
  • You cannot--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought
  • while the church bells go off.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, yeah.
  • It must be eleven.
  • I'll take it.
  • (pause in recording)
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Was that eleven?
  • (pause in recording)
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Introduce one of the things
  • we did where these things called Speaker Bureaus.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
  • And one of the things we did early on
  • was form what we call the Speakers Bureau to make
  • ourselves available to groups who
  • wanted us to come out, and just talk about gay liberation,
  • and talk about ourselves.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • OK.
  • So I want to ask you then--
  • that first Speakers Bureau's event,
  • you talked about actually it being
  • held at one of the psychology teachers homes.
  • CREW: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about that experience.
  • What did you come away from after that?
  • What did you bring away from that?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: That was Professor Nolis
  • who was a psych professor at the U of R. Invited us
  • to an evening at his home with one of his classes.
  • Or I don't know if he invited students from various classes
  • or whatever, but he obviously made it an optional event.
  • And he held it at his home.
  • And there were maybe twenty, twenty-five students there.
  • And he invited a few of us to come.
  • I think RJ Alcala was one of the other people,
  • I can't remember, maybe Larry Fine,
  • and I. I'm not sure about that.
  • In any case, he announced the whole evening
  • as saying that a revolution was about to happen in that room.
  • "You are going to witness a revolution
  • in this room, right now today."
  • That's how he announced it.
  • And you know, I felt that.
  • I felt that.
  • It was a revolution.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Expand on that a little bit.
  • Why?
  • Why did you feel like this was a revolutionary act?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: We had never sat face to face with people,
  • and just said, OK, here we are.
  • We're gay.
  • And we started this movement, because we feel that people
  • don't know about us.
  • Maybe we don't even know about ourselves.
  • We want to have dialogue with people.
  • We want to let you know we're here.
  • And here we are, and just ask us whatever you want to ask us,
  • because you've never had a chance to do anything
  • like this before.
  • And of course, they were just loaded with questions.
  • I mean, that's all we had to say,
  • and the whole evening just took off.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to get to some of the student reactions
  • or some of the community reaction
  • to what you guys were doing out there now in the community
  • with this Speaker Bureaus.
  • What kind of responses were you getting?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: You know I don't remember
  • anything but positive response.
  • Of course there were a few anti-gay zealots in town
  • who would show up.
  • Well, this is actually later, because you
  • know the people who show up with signs at the parades.
  • And I mean there are people like that in town.
  • So I know I'm aware of those people,
  • but when it came to a one on one meetings
  • with classrooms of people, with community groups,
  • these were small little gatherings of people,
  • and I really don't remember negative reaction.
  • Occasionally there would be a student
  • who you knew was gay who would be contentious.
  • And we knew that person was gay, and that's
  • why they were contentious.
  • We felt sorry for the person.
  • We didn't take it personally.
  • I've always felt the only people who really react strongly
  • toward gay people are people who have issues
  • with their own sexuality.
  • So that was something we realized pretty early on.
  • So people who are contentious or obnoxious--
  • I don't know, but most people were
  • extremely grateful for the opportunity
  • to talk with gay people.
  • Sometimes when we talked with parents,
  • they would be concerned about their own children being gay.
  • When it was still not politically
  • incorrect to ask questions like, "How do I make my son not gay?"
  • We would hear questions like that.
  • Or, "What do I need to do so my children aren't gay?
  • What did your parents do wrong to make you gay?"
  • In the beginning, we actually answered questions like that.
  • We actually thought, oh let's see, yeah, maybe
  • they did this wrong with it.
  • But I mean our own consciousness had to be raised along the way.
  • So I remember things like that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I want to expand on that.
  • That was gonna be my next question
  • for you is, along the way you needed to develop--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Absolutely.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --in the way you spoke to people--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Absolutely.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --and kind of language
  • that you needed to use.
  • Talk to me about that.
  • Talk to me about raising your own conscious
  • of how to speak to--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --non-gay people.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, it was a consciousness raising journey
  • to do these speaking engagements.
  • It was just exactly like the Women's Movement
  • with their consciousness raising groups.
  • We would get together after one of these sessions,
  • and say well, you know, "That question.
  • Let's think about that question, what
  • did your parents do to make you gay.
  • Let's think about that question.
  • Did they do anything?
  • I don't think so.
  • Let's learn to turn that question around.
  • Let's ask the person what their parents
  • did to make them not gay.
  • And let them just think about that.
  • And was it because of their parents that they're not gay."
  • We finally came to the conclusion,
  • or I certainly did, that I was born this way.
  • My favorite analogy is with left handedness.
  • That's the way you're wired.
  • And I lived in Japan for a while.
  • They try to change left handed people to right handed people.
  • It is very, very problematic, and it gives people all kinds
  • of psychological problems.
  • And it's a huge issue.
  • And nobody blames anybody for the fact
  • that people are born that way.
  • They just are.
  • I love that Lady Gaga song.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So in this time period,
  • at what point did you realize or did you feel that you
  • were making a difference?
  • How did you know in what you were doing back
  • then was making a difference?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I think immediately
  • we were making a difference.
  • It was very early on that we started the Empty Closet.
  • So here is a publication with words like gay in it.
  • Immediately we were on television
  • where there's a moderator.
  • We were on this funny morning talk show,
  • this morning local talk show--
  • it was called the Louise Show, where housewives
  • were watching the gay people be one of the segments
  • on her show.
  • It was between two other segments
  • about sewing an interface on a collar,
  • And how to fold a fitted sheet.
  • You know, and in the middle of that
  • was, and now here the gay people.
  • You know must have made everybody drop their spatulas,
  • and look at the TV.
  • It was wild.
  • People never heard from us before.
  • And so, of course, people had that experience,
  • and then they talked about it to other people.
  • And that's how it happens.
  • You know, here's a story.
  • My mother, who's now ninety-one, lives
  • in a community with older people in New Hampshire.
  • And my mother who had some trouble when I first came out
  • with my being gay, but has been very supportive most of my life
  • since I did come out.
  • But she herself has been unable to come out
  • as the parent of a gay person.
  • So she would say things to me like,
  • "Oh you know my friend Ruth.
  • Oh, you know, I think she has a gay son.
  • But we never talk about it."
  • So Ruth couldn't talk to my mother,
  • and my mother couldn't talk to Ruthie.
  • So they're like best friends.
  • So my mother is in the closet as the mother of a gay person.
  • Fast forward to the issue around the gay Episcopalian
  • Bishop in New Hampshire, where she lives.
  • And so there's talk about this issue.
  • She happens to live in a community
  • where there are a number of Episcopalians.
  • She belongs to an Episcopalian church.
  • My sister is an Episcopalian rector.
  • So huge surrounding on the Episcopalians,
  • and this issue about the gay bishop comes up
  • and all of her peers at the old folks home
  • are talking about the gay bishop,
  • and isn't it wonderful that our church supports a gay bishop.
  • They were all very, very supportive.
  • And people in her community were talking
  • about their gay children.
  • And isn't it wonderful for my son
  • now that we have a gay bishop.
  • Well, of course then it became cool to have a gay daughter.
  • And of course she started--
  • she came out.
  • Finally in her late eighties.
  • And now, I mean, I could faint.
  • I go and visit with my partner, and she introduces my partner
  • to her friends as my partner.
  • So it took the community around her talking about it.
  • Her community never talked about it at all in any context.
  • Good, bad, indifferent, they didn't talk about it.
  • So that's why I was so aware that it took dialogue.
  • It took dialogue about the topic.
  • Because the topic itself was in the closet
  • among people who were not gay.
  • It was just not a topic.
  • Didn't exist.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just quick.
  • Do you remember which channel the Louise Show was on?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, boy, no.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it eight, ten, thirteen?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: If I had to guess, I'd say thirteen.
  • Wait, where did we go?
  • Was ten always down on East Avenue?
  • When did it move there?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Seventies I think?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Yeah
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Maybe.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I wonder if we were there,
  • 'cause I remember going there.
  • And I remember going out to thirteen,
  • but I don't think Louise was on thirteen.
  • I think it might have been ten.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Do you remember about what year it was?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: It would have been '72 or '73 I would guess.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: It was early.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Let's talk about some fun stuff here.
  • The first dance for the GLF.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talking about the organization of that,
  • and what your expectations were of that.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, again, it was so amazing that--
  • I mean gay social life was only in the bars.
  • And the bars were all these kind of secret places,
  • and only gay people knew about them.
  • And they were a little dangerous.
  • And now here was the University of Rochester saying OK,
  • have a gay dance in our building.
  • I mean that was the first thing that was--
  • it was mind boggling to me, truly mind boggling.
  • I couldn't even believe it.
  • I was always shaking my head, can you believe this?
  • We're having a gay dance at the university.
  • I just couldn't believe it.
  • Just the validation of that.
  • Putting up posters that said, gay dance,
  • and the university campus.
  • I don't know it was--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What was that experience like for you?
  • 'Cause you were one of the people going out,
  • and putting up the posters.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You were the one--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: It felt kind of dangerous.
  • It felt thrilling, liberating.
  • It just was fabulous.
  • It was wonderful.
  • Yeah, it was just wonderful to be able to be out in the--
  • we had a picnic too early on.
  • And to be out in the daylight as a group of gay people--
  • in the daylight, in the open air during that day
  • as a group of gay people, that was amazing.
  • A public group of gay people.
  • It was really mind boggling.
  • So I would say I was just filled with a sense of wonder
  • about the entire happening.
  • And lots and lots of people showed up.
  • It was like, who are all these people?
  • Where did they all come from?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hang on a second.
  • Could you just tell them to keep it down a little bit?
  • CREW: I can hear them.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • CREW: If we could back up a little.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Thanks Joe.
  • Let's just jump forward a little bit, the night of the dance.
  • What was it like?
  • What was it like walking into is event?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, you know, people
  • think I did a lot of courageous things early on.
  • I had a canteen around my neck, a gallon
  • sized canteen filled with red wine.
  • I was a little high.
  • And I got a little more high as the night went on.
  • And it was just a whirlwind for me.
  • It was a whirlwind.
  • And as I say, the number of people there was mind boggling.
  • The fact that people were dancing with same sex partners
  • at the university was--
  • just I mean it all happened so fast.
  • It happened so fast that I was dazzled.
  • I was just dazzled by the whole situation and--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Was there any kind
  • of epiphany for you from that event?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, it was the start
  • of being able to be out in the open publicly as a group.
  • It was the start of that, a damn broke.
  • Somebody let the water out.
  • A damn broke and it wasn't going to go back.
  • And as I said, everything that happened,
  • everything that happened publicly caused dialogue.
  • The result of all of this was dialogue.
  • Even people who weren't at the dance.
  • Did you know?
  • There was a dance, a gay dance at the U
  • of R. Even people who weren't there were talking about it.
  • Gay people, non-gay people, people were talking about it.
  • The dialogue had started.
  • And that was the epiphany for all of these events.
  • It was well, more dialogue, more dialogue, more visibility, more
  • being out, more being recognized as existing.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: At one point, you, and I believe RJ,
  • and a couple other people did a little New York City
  • trip for gay pride.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't need to get a lot of details
  • about the trip itself.
  • More interested in, why did you make that trip.
  • But more importantly, what did you bring back to Rochester
  • from it?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you tell me that in just a little,
  • tiny story?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I think it was the second gay march in New
  • York City that we organized a contingent here to attend.
  • And a number of us went down individually.
  • We didn't travel as a group.
  • I remember I stayed with my cousin who
  • lived on the Upper East Side, and was a student at NYU
  • at the time.
  • And we would meet before these various events
  • that were around the march.
  • I just have some certain images in my mind.
  • Whatever we were doing here was being
  • done to the max in New York.
  • New York was a little ahead of Rochester.
  • I remember a women's dance being held the night
  • before the march at some building
  • on the second or third floor of a building.
  • And I went up there with a few women from Rochester,
  • and we went into this dark room with lots of strobe lights
  • and everything.
  • And all the women were topless, and dancing up a storm.
  • I was like, this is amazing.
  • It was mind boggling.
  • It was more than I could ever, I don't know, imagine.
  • The women in New York, were already
  • very, very radical feminist, and that hadn't quite
  • been imported to Rochester yet.
  • And so I had that experience of the radical feminists.
  • The experience of just marching down
  • the street with these throngs of gay people.
  • Really throngs, I mean the numbers were--
  • that was my feeling at the dance.
  • Wow, look at all these people.
  • Well, in New York there were that many more, thousands
  • and thousands of people.
  • And all kinds of people, and all kinds of signs.
  • And just being a part of that, it was thrilling.
  • It was very thrilling.
  • And we had one member in our group
  • who was really terrified of having her picture end up
  • on the cover of Time magazine.
  • She named cameras squirrels for some reason.
  • And as we marched, she would going, squirrel on the right,
  • squirrel on the left, and hiding her face.
  • And I remember thinking, I would love
  • to be on the front of Time magazine.
  • I'd look right at the camera, and hope
  • they take a picture of me.
  • It was very liberating and very exciting.
  • And just a party.
  • It was a huge party.
  • And people on the sidelines were cheering
  • us, that was the other thing.
  • Of course it was a great tourist attraction.
  • Imagine.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So from that experience,
  • what did you bring back to Rochester as far as where
  • you think may now need to go.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, we needed to have a march.
  • We absolutely needed to do that, which
  • we have done every year since, and just the activity
  • of the march.
  • The activity of having a tourist attraction, if you will,
  • to be out there in the open.
  • And have all these contingents take part.
  • I'm always so moved when in our march
  • here in Rochester at just how many--
  • first it was how many people.
  • Now it's how many organizations, how many groups,
  • how many people representing all the churches,
  • and the parent groups, the groups
  • associated with businesses.
  • I never could have imagined.
  • And I think that anyone standing on the sidelines
  • is impressed with that--
  • can't help but be impressed with that.
  • That was the same of the very first march in New York.
  • I can't imagine being a tourist, and just running into that.
  • You know?
  • Again, how many more people would go home
  • with a story to tell?
  • How many more people could talk about gay people doing
  • this act of coming out?
  • It was a huge snowball thing.
  • So we brought back the idea of having marches.
  • Just the news about how big everything is becoming.
  • The good news, we brought back the good news.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you involved with the first picnic
  • here in Rochester?
  • Just
  • KAREN HAGBERG: The first?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: First picnic.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Yes.
  • Yes, I was.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
  • How that got started, and the importance of an event
  • like that, out in a big public park.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right well, again, a public place,
  • the day time--
  • I remember that people were still afraid.
  • People were still in the closet.
  • We had more people, I think, from other towns,
  • other cities at that event than were
  • from Rochester, the first time.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me take it back a little bit.
  • I need you to set it up for me.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, you know, the first time we
  • did a gay picnic I remember--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Whatever, that kind of thing.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Alright.
  • OK.
  • The first time we announced a picnic in a public park,
  • it was Genesse Valley Park, people were still--
  • the average gay person was still pretty closeted, and pretty
  • afraid here in Rochester.
  • I remember putting up signs for that picnic along Wilson
  • Boulevard.
  • And being a little wary about doing that.
  • I was by myself.
  • Being a little afraid.
  • I don't know if what, but just being
  • out there doing that was a little risky, I felt.
  • I recall more people at that event
  • from other cities in upstate New York
  • than in Rochester, because I think
  • that many Rochesterians were a little wary about coming out
  • to an event like that in the middle of the park,
  • in the middle of the day.
  • What would happen?
  • Who would see them?
  • So, it was furtive, I would say, a little bit.
  • People kind of looking around the edges.
  • Who's noticing we're here?
  • Who's out there?
  • Nothing happened.
  • It was a great day.
  • We had a good time.
  • And since then the picnic has become huge.
  • It seems that everybody goes and has a good time
  • and it's come a long, long way since those days.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, reflecting back on that first picnic,
  • just give me a little soundbite about why
  • it was so significant, why it became
  • such an important catalyst--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, why it keeps coming--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --for where we are today.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Yes, right.
  • Yes.
  • I think the difference between the closeted--
  • the closeted nightlife gay world and going
  • to a picnic in the park, or going
  • to a dance at a university, is the difference
  • between being in the closet and being out.
  • As an individual, as a community,
  • it's extremely significant being out in the open
  • and just saying, here we are, we are here,
  • and if you're one of us, please join us.
  • Very, very different from sorted nightlife.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Just a quick wrap up questions here.
  • Recently, gay marriage in New York State has passed.
  • Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed.
  • Did you ever think you would see the day?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Never.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And how did that make you feel?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: No.
  • I never thought I would see the day.
  • No.
  • Never.
  • You know, since the beginning of all of this,
  • I have constantly been just in the sense of wonder
  • about what's happened and how quickly it's happened,
  • and how profoundly it has happened.
  • The president, the other day--
  • you could knock me over, knock me over now.
  • It's amazing.
  • And at the same time, every step along the way
  • has brought out a certain--
  • an equal and opposite backlash, kind of.
  • The backlash, people are more vocal or vocal
  • for the first time in the beginning,
  • and they get to be more vocal the more vocal we are.
  • So there's that issue to deal with.
  • There's a long, long way to go.
  • We still don't see gay images in advertising, for example.
  • That's huge, it's totally huge because advertising is what
  • we all see, like it or not.
  • We are totally invisible there even to this day,
  • even with all, the gay marriage passing and the president
  • saying whatever he said.
  • You know, we're still, in a way, invisible in very significant
  • areas of life.
  • So there's a long, long way to go,
  • but I'm still bowled over by what's happened so far now.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: In retrospect, in everything
  • that you've been involved in, what are you most proud of?
  • What do you look back and say, god, we really
  • made a difference there?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I think--
  • I mean, myself personally, it's the Speakers Bureau,
  • that was so important, and it just started the dialogue.
  • But in general, just that I jumped in,
  • that I heard the words and said, yeah, we have to go with this.
  • And I don't like to say I'm proud of it
  • because it's sort of like I was at the right place
  • at the right time, and the right mindset,
  • and the right time of my life.
  • You know, everything was just--
  • it seemed like fate, I was just there
  • riding that wave when the wave came along.
  • I'm really glad I was part of it.
  • I like that I was part of it.
  • And I'm really glad to see the results.
  • I can't believe the results sometimes.
  • It's astonishing to me that we've
  • come this far in such a short time,
  • and yet we have a long way to go.
  • So there's still work to be done.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: This next question, and I purposefully
  • say this question to last because I know it's
  • an emotional thing for you.
  • Very early on, when you came to Rochester
  • you talked about it at one point,
  • going to a psychologist's office at the U of R--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --to try and come to terms
  • with what you were feeling at the time.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I'm crying already.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me--
  • because I think it's important that people
  • realize that struggle that gay people go through.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And really how lucky
  • you were that you found a psychologist that kind of told
  • you.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right, right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you tell me just a little bit
  • about that part of your life?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
  • I was single at the time.
  • And I had a friend who I was attracted to, who--
  • when I finally came out to her, suggested that, you know,
  • I was sick and that I should see a psychiatrist.
  • And I-- you know, at that point, I really
  • didn't know if that would be a good thing to do or what.
  • I kind of did it because she said I should, and I said, OK,
  • I'll do this.
  • Maybe it'll make me feel better.
  • This is before gay liberation and that all, OK?
  • So I was a graduate student.
  • So I went to a doctor at the U of R. Wish
  • I remembered his name.
  • I went I think to only two sessions.
  • And basically, first of all, it was really difficult for me
  • to tell him why I was even there.
  • No language to use, I didn't know what to say.
  • When he found out that I was there because I was lesbian
  • and I worried about what to do about that, and da-da-da.
  • He asked a few questions.
  • He found out I had been in a relationship
  • and that had broken up.
  • And he asked me if I was happy in that relationship,
  • happy being in that relationship.
  • And, you know, I said, "Yeah, I was happier than I've ever
  • been in my life."
  • And he said, "Well, would you like
  • to be in another relationship like that one?"
  • I said, "Oh yeah, I would really like that."
  • And he basically looked at me and said, "Well,
  • then, and the problem is?
  • What's your problem?"
  • And I said, "Well, it just doesn't seem to be OK,
  • you know?"
  • And he said, "Well, if you were happy, though,
  • and having another relationship like
  • that then you would be happy, then
  • you will get in another relationship like that
  • and you'll be happy, and you don't really have to change."
  • So that was wonderful.
  • I'd like to find the man.
  • Anyway, I'm glad I found him and not any number of other people
  • I might have found who would make my life a misery.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: If you were to give advice to a young person
  • now, who may be questioning same things,
  • the up and coming generation.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What advice would you be giving them?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, you know, advice really doesn't--
  • advice really doesn't help.
  • I guess-- well, maybe it does, I don't know.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you this then.
  • For the up and coming generation,
  • those young people that are coming up behind us--
  • KAREN HAGBERG: I've got to blow my nose.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What-- do you want them to know
  • about what you guys did.
  • What do you want them to know about Karen Hagberg
  • and who she is and what she did for them?
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Well, you know, I was just
  • a gay person who knew I was gay from the time I was pretty
  • young, and I grew up in a world where there
  • were no other people like me.
  • And I struggled until my early twenties
  • to find people who were like me, and find my people.
  • And I found my people, and it made my life good.
  • So I would say, find your people.
  • And now it might be a little bit easier to find your people,
  • but you need to find your people and be with them.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And we're going to leave it there.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: There it is.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Joe will take that microphone off of you.
  • KAREN HAGBERG: OK.