Video Interview, Karen Hagberg, May 23, 2012
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, you're fine.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
- CREW: And I am rolling, sir.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, Karen.
- If you would-- and this for a microphone check--
- just give us the correct spelling
- of your first and last name.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
- First time K-A-R-E-N. Last name H-A-G-B-E-R-G.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Sound good?
- CREW: Sounds good.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright.
- So Karen, we're gonna just pick it right up with the Gay
- Liberation Front.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Alright.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And talk to me about those first days.
- How did you get involved?
- When did you first hear about the Gay Liberation Front,
- and what first piqued your interest?
- KAREN HAGBERG: I was a graduate student at the Eastman
- School of Music, and I was actually in a relationship
- when I first came to the Eastman School.
- My first relationship, a totally closeted relationship.
- And that relationship broke up shortly
- after I got to the Eastman School.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought.
- I'm sorry.
- CREW: Yeah
- KEVIN INDOVINO: We have this train go
- by like every twenty minutes.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, I see.
- OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Who knew there was so much
- train traffic in Rochester.
- (pause in recording)
- You rolling again?
- CREW: I am rolling.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- So let's just pick it back up from where we started.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
- Yep.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Being a graduate student at Eastman.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
- I was a graduate student at the Eastman School of Music,
- and I had come here from Syracuse University
- with the woman who was my first partner.
- And about a year after we arrived here,
- the relationship ended.
- It was a totally closeted relationship.
- And it ended mainly, because she couldn't live as a gay person.
- So I went through this period of being involved with someone
- who I really loved.
- And then having this huge breakup that I couldn't talk
- to anyone about.
- I was in, emotionally, a very difficult time of my life.
- It was really hard.
- So I began to meet gay men at Eastman.
- They were slightly out of the closet among themselves.
- And that was, I think, my saving grace--
- was that I made a couple of good friends,
- a couple of gay male friends.
- And through them began to meet some lesbian women
- who weren't students, but who were in the community.
- So I began to make forays into this very, very
- closeted gay community.
- It was soon after that time that Stonewall happened.
- Bob Osborn out on the River Campus
- started making little announcements
- that we were going to start gay liberation.
- I knew the minute I heard the word gay liberation,
- this had to happen.
- It just had to happen.
- And I felt like I had to be a part of it,
- because I really had--
- I don't know, socially I had nothing else to do.
- It was a feeling of being trapped as a gay person.
- Like just being totally trapped in this strange closet thing,
- and needing to get out.
- And I heard those words and I thought, this was the way out.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's talk about those first days
- of trying to form this gay liberation group.
- What was it like?
- What were some of the discussions
- that were being had?
- KAREN HAGBERG: We met on the River Campus,
- and it was very furtive.
- We'd go into the room, and we'd notice people
- pacing the hall outside the room,
- peering in, being afraid to come in, being glad we were
- in the room.
- And not pacing outside the room.
- The discussions had to do with what--
- it was the beginning of everything.
- So here we are.
- We're the Gay Liberation Front.
- You know, it was a very combative kind of language
- that we used in those days.
- So what were we going to do?
- Where were we going to go?
- What were our battles going to be?
- How are we going to do this thing?
- And we had the Women's Movement.
- We had the Civil Rights Movement as our models.
- The conversation had to do with actions, and what actions would
- we take to try to change things, because we had already
- some role models for actions in those other movements.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember how
- you came up with the name, Gay Liberation Front?
- Why did you call it that?
- KAREN HAGBERG: I think just because it was combative,
- intentionally.
- And the word liberation was very important.
- I don't know.
- In those days, everything was a front.
- I think at one point the Women's Liberation Front was a front.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And I want to go back just a little bit
- to the beginning of what you just said.
- Get more to the point of why did you think the Gay Liberation
- Front was needed.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, in those days, in the old days--
- you know growing up as a gay kid I felt like a total alien.
- And first of all, there were no role models.
- There was no language.
- I didn't even know what I was.
- And when I did realize that I was attracted to women,
- and that this male-female heterosexual model didn't apply
- to me, I really did-- people make a joke of this,
- but I really did think I was the only one
- in the world for a while.
- Having no language to know about people like that.
- And then as time went on, I began
- to be aware of sort of a queer underclass of people
- who came out at night, and lived in the bars.
- You know it had nothing to do with my daily life.
- There was no one in my daily life.
- There was no one in normal life.
- I mean I grew up in a suburb of Boston.
- I went to the public high school.
- And everybody was straight.
- So there was nothing to hang onto, no context.
- There was no context that was acceptable.
- There were only words like deviant, and queer,
- and pervert.
- Even when I heard those words, I was
- glad there were words, because I knew there were others.
- But I didn't like those words.
- So the need for just normalizing my experience.
- First of all, realizing there were others like me,
- and that the experience could be normalized.
- I mean there were people in everyday life who were gay,
- and somehow liberation meant acknowledging that.
- And having a context for it, and having a reality for it.
- Yeah.
- As I say, the minute I heard the words Gay Liberation Front,
- I thought, yeah this is the answer.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The group gets started.
- There's campus activities and stuff,
- but you became really involved with the Speakers Bureaus.
- Talk to me about you-- what were the Speaker Bureaus, and what
- are you trying to achieve with those kind of programs.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, just what I was saying,
- I think that people had no way to dialogue about this topic.
- I mean we're talking about before psych classes had
- anything but textbooks that described pathology.
- That they didn't have gay people in the classrooms
- to talk about their experience.
- The gay people who might look like themselves, or be
- like themselves.
- They can just read in a textbook,
- a book about the perverts and the deviants.
- So that's the context we're talking about.
- So it was apparent to me immediately that--
- one thing we needed for liberation--
- the main thing we needed for liberation
- was to give, first of all, the world a kind of language
- with which they could talk about us
- that was some pathology, that wasn't negative,
- that wasn't full of pejorative words.
- That we created a way for curious people
- to just talk with us.
- And find out about us, and realize that we are them.
- They are us.
- Give students a way to come out of their own classroom.
- It was just apparent to me that this is what
- was totally not in the world.
- And also, again, the model of the Women's Movement,
- and the Civil Rights Movement, so much of those movements
- had to do with consciousness raising, changing language,
- making certain words not OK to use.
- Coming up with a way to be in the world that was different.
- Gay people had a rather unique relationship to the world,
- in so far as, we were invisible.
- I mean anyone can see an African-American face,
- or a female face walking down the street,
- but we had to announce ourselves in a big way,
- or people didn't know who we were.
- And I can't tell you how many people,
- when I was being very vocal, when I was being on TV,
- when I was being on the radio, when I was going out
- doing the speaking engagements, how many people would say
- to me, "OK, it's fine that you're gay,
- but why do you have to be so public about it?
- Why do you have to talk about it?
- Why are you doing this?"
- And it was because I was invisible.
- The world made me straight if I didn't shout it in their face.
- They still do.
- You cannot--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought
- while the church bells go off.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, yeah.
- It must be eleven.
- I'll take it.
- (pause in recording)
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was that eleven?
- (pause in recording)
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Introduce one of the things
- we did where these things called Speaker Bureaus.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
- And one of the things we did early on
- was form what we call the Speakers Bureau to make
- ourselves available to groups who
- wanted us to come out, and just talk about gay liberation,
- and talk about ourselves.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- OK.
- So I want to ask you then--
- that first Speakers Bureau's event,
- you talked about actually it being
- held at one of the psychology teachers homes.
- CREW: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about that experience.
- What did you come away from after that?
- What did you bring away from that?
- KAREN HAGBERG: That was Professor Nolis
- who was a psych professor at the U of R. Invited us
- to an evening at his home with one of his classes.
- Or I don't know if he invited students from various classes
- or whatever, but he obviously made it an optional event.
- And he held it at his home.
- And there were maybe twenty, twenty-five students there.
- And he invited a few of us to come.
- I think RJ Alcala was one of the other people,
- I can't remember, maybe Larry Fine,
- and I. I'm not sure about that.
- In any case, he announced the whole evening
- as saying that a revolution was about to happen in that room.
- "You are going to witness a revolution
- in this room, right now today."
- That's how he announced it.
- And you know, I felt that.
- I felt that.
- It was a revolution.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Expand on that a little bit.
- Why?
- Why did you feel like this was a revolutionary act?
- KAREN HAGBERG: We had never sat face to face with people,
- and just said, OK, here we are.
- We're gay.
- And we started this movement, because we feel that people
- don't know about us.
- Maybe we don't even know about ourselves.
- We want to have dialogue with people.
- We want to let you know we're here.
- And here we are, and just ask us whatever you want to ask us,
- because you've never had a chance to do anything
- like this before.
- And of course, they were just loaded with questions.
- I mean, that's all we had to say,
- and the whole evening just took off.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to get to some of the student reactions
- or some of the community reaction
- to what you guys were doing out there now in the community
- with this Speaker Bureaus.
- What kind of responses were you getting?
- KAREN HAGBERG: You know I don't remember
- anything but positive response.
- Of course there were a few anti-gay zealots in town
- who would show up.
- Well, this is actually later, because you
- know the people who show up with signs at the parades.
- And I mean there are people like that in town.
- So I know I'm aware of those people,
- but when it came to a one on one meetings
- with classrooms of people, with community groups,
- these were small little gatherings of people,
- and I really don't remember negative reaction.
- Occasionally there would be a student
- who you knew was gay who would be contentious.
- And we knew that person was gay, and that's
- why they were contentious.
- We felt sorry for the person.
- We didn't take it personally.
- I've always felt the only people who really react strongly
- toward gay people are people who have issues
- with their own sexuality.
- So that was something we realized pretty early on.
- So people who are contentious or obnoxious--
- I don't know, but most people were
- extremely grateful for the opportunity
- to talk with gay people.
- Sometimes when we talked with parents,
- they would be concerned about their own children being gay.
- When it was still not politically
- incorrect to ask questions like, "How do I make my son not gay?"
- We would hear questions like that.
- Or, "What do I need to do so my children aren't gay?
- What did your parents do wrong to make you gay?"
- In the beginning, we actually answered questions like that.
- We actually thought, oh let's see, yeah, maybe
- they did this wrong with it.
- But I mean our own consciousness had to be raised along the way.
- So I remember things like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I want to expand on that.
- That was gonna be my next question
- for you is, along the way you needed to develop--
- KAREN HAGBERG: Absolutely.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --in the way you spoke to people--
- KAREN HAGBERG: Absolutely.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --and kind of language
- that you needed to use.
- Talk to me about that.
- Talk to me about raising your own conscious
- of how to speak to--
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --non-gay people.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, it was a consciousness raising journey
- to do these speaking engagements.
- It was just exactly like the Women's Movement
- with their consciousness raising groups.
- We would get together after one of these sessions,
- and say well, you know, "That question.
- Let's think about that question, what
- did your parents do to make you gay.
- Let's think about that question.
- Did they do anything?
- I don't think so.
- Let's learn to turn that question around.
- Let's ask the person what their parents
- did to make them not gay.
- And let them just think about that.
- And was it because of their parents that they're not gay."
- We finally came to the conclusion,
- or I certainly did, that I was born this way.
- My favorite analogy is with left handedness.
- That's the way you're wired.
- And I lived in Japan for a while.
- They try to change left handed people to right handed people.
- It is very, very problematic, and it gives people all kinds
- of psychological problems.
- And it's a huge issue.
- And nobody blames anybody for the fact
- that people are born that way.
- They just are.
- I love that Lady Gaga song.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So in this time period,
- at what point did you realize or did you feel that you
- were making a difference?
- How did you know in what you were doing back
- then was making a difference?
- KAREN HAGBERG: I think immediately
- we were making a difference.
- It was very early on that we started the Empty Closet.
- So here is a publication with words like gay in it.
- Immediately we were on television
- where there's a moderator.
- We were on this funny morning talk show,
- this morning local talk show--
- it was called the Louise Show, where housewives
- were watching the gay people be one of the segments
- on her show.
- It was between two other segments
- about sewing an interface on a collar,
- And how to fold a fitted sheet.
- You know, and in the middle of that
- was, and now here the gay people.
- You know must have made everybody drop their spatulas,
- and look at the TV.
- It was wild.
- People never heard from us before.
- And so, of course, people had that experience,
- and then they talked about it to other people.
- And that's how it happens.
- You know, here's a story.
- My mother, who's now ninety-one, lives
- in a community with older people in New Hampshire.
- And my mother who had some trouble when I first came out
- with my being gay, but has been very supportive most of my life
- since I did come out.
- But she herself has been unable to come out
- as the parent of a gay person.
- So she would say things to me like,
- "Oh you know my friend Ruth.
- Oh, you know, I think she has a gay son.
- But we never talk about it."
- So Ruth couldn't talk to my mother,
- and my mother couldn't talk to Ruthie.
- So they're like best friends.
- So my mother is in the closet as the mother of a gay person.
- Fast forward to the issue around the gay Episcopalian
- Bishop in New Hampshire, where she lives.
- And so there's talk about this issue.
- She happens to live in a community
- where there are a number of Episcopalians.
- She belongs to an Episcopalian church.
- My sister is an Episcopalian rector.
- So huge surrounding on the Episcopalians,
- and this issue about the gay bishop comes up
- and all of her peers at the old folks home
- are talking about the gay bishop,
- and isn't it wonderful that our church supports a gay bishop.
- They were all very, very supportive.
- And people in her community were talking
- about their gay children.
- And isn't it wonderful for my son
- now that we have a gay bishop.
- Well, of course then it became cool to have a gay daughter.
- And of course she started--
- she came out.
- Finally in her late eighties.
- And now, I mean, I could faint.
- I go and visit with my partner, and she introduces my partner
- to her friends as my partner.
- So it took the community around her talking about it.
- Her community never talked about it at all in any context.
- Good, bad, indifferent, they didn't talk about it.
- So that's why I was so aware that it took dialogue.
- It took dialogue about the topic.
- Because the topic itself was in the closet
- among people who were not gay.
- It was just not a topic.
- Didn't exist.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just quick.
- Do you remember which channel the Louise Show was on?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, boy, no.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was it eight, ten, thirteen?
- KAREN HAGBERG: If I had to guess, I'd say thirteen.
- Wait, where did we go?
- Was ten always down on East Avenue?
- When did it move there?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Seventies I think?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Yeah
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Maybe.
- KAREN HAGBERG: I wonder if we were there,
- 'cause I remember going there.
- And I remember going out to thirteen,
- but I don't think Louise was on thirteen.
- I think it might have been ten.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Do you remember about what year it was?
- KAREN HAGBERG: It would have been '72 or '73 I would guess.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- KAREN HAGBERG: It was early.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Let's talk about some fun stuff here.
- The first dance for the GLF.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talking about the organization of that,
- and what your expectations were of that.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, again, it was so amazing that--
- I mean gay social life was only in the bars.
- And the bars were all these kind of secret places,
- and only gay people knew about them.
- And they were a little dangerous.
- And now here was the University of Rochester saying OK,
- have a gay dance in our building.
- I mean that was the first thing that was--
- it was mind boggling to me, truly mind boggling.
- I couldn't even believe it.
- I was always shaking my head, can you believe this?
- We're having a gay dance at the university.
- I just couldn't believe it.
- Just the validation of that.
- Putting up posters that said, gay dance,
- and the university campus.
- I don't know it was--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What was that experience like for you?
- 'Cause you were one of the people going out,
- and putting up the posters.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You were the one--
- KAREN HAGBERG: It felt kind of dangerous.
- It felt thrilling, liberating.
- It just was fabulous.
- It was wonderful.
- Yeah, it was just wonderful to be able to be out in the--
- we had a picnic too early on.
- And to be out in the daylight as a group of gay people--
- in the daylight, in the open air during that day
- as a group of gay people, that was amazing.
- A public group of gay people.
- It was really mind boggling.
- So I would say I was just filled with a sense of wonder
- about the entire happening.
- And lots and lots of people showed up.
- It was like, who are all these people?
- Where did they all come from?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hang on a second.
- Could you just tell them to keep it down a little bit?
- CREW: I can hear them.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- CREW: If we could back up a little.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Thanks Joe.
- Let's just jump forward a little bit, the night of the dance.
- What was it like?
- What was it like walking into is event?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, you know, people
- think I did a lot of courageous things early on.
- I had a canteen around my neck, a gallon
- sized canteen filled with red wine.
- I was a little high.
- And I got a little more high as the night went on.
- And it was just a whirlwind for me.
- It was a whirlwind.
- And as I say, the number of people there was mind boggling.
- The fact that people were dancing with same sex partners
- at the university was--
- just I mean it all happened so fast.
- It happened so fast that I was dazzled.
- I was just dazzled by the whole situation and--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Was there any kind
- of epiphany for you from that event?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, it was the start
- of being able to be out in the open publicly as a group.
- It was the start of that, a damn broke.
- Somebody let the water out.
- A damn broke and it wasn't going to go back.
- And as I said, everything that happened,
- everything that happened publicly caused dialogue.
- The result of all of this was dialogue.
- Even people who weren't at the dance.
- Did you know?
- There was a dance, a gay dance at the U
- of R. Even people who weren't there were talking about it.
- Gay people, non-gay people, people were talking about it.
- The dialogue had started.
- And that was the epiphany for all of these events.
- It was well, more dialogue, more dialogue, more visibility, more
- being out, more being recognized as existing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: At one point, you, and I believe RJ,
- and a couple other people did a little New York City
- trip for gay pride.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't need to get a lot of details
- about the trip itself.
- More interested in, why did you make that trip.
- But more importantly, what did you bring back to Rochester
- from it?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you tell me that in just a little,
- tiny story?
- KAREN HAGBERG: I think it was the second gay march in New
- York City that we organized a contingent here to attend.
- And a number of us went down individually.
- We didn't travel as a group.
- I remember I stayed with my cousin who
- lived on the Upper East Side, and was a student at NYU
- at the time.
- And we would meet before these various events
- that were around the march.
- I just have some certain images in my mind.
- Whatever we were doing here was being
- done to the max in New York.
- New York was a little ahead of Rochester.
- I remember a women's dance being held the night
- before the march at some building
- on the second or third floor of a building.
- And I went up there with a few women from Rochester,
- and we went into this dark room with lots of strobe lights
- and everything.
- And all the women were topless, and dancing up a storm.
- I was like, this is amazing.
- It was mind boggling.
- It was more than I could ever, I don't know, imagine.
- The women in New York, were already
- very, very radical feminist, and that hadn't quite
- been imported to Rochester yet.
- And so I had that experience of the radical feminists.
- The experience of just marching down
- the street with these throngs of gay people.
- Really throngs, I mean the numbers were--
- that was my feeling at the dance.
- Wow, look at all these people.
- Well, in New York there were that many more, thousands
- and thousands of people.
- And all kinds of people, and all kinds of signs.
- And just being a part of that, it was thrilling.
- It was very thrilling.
- And we had one member in our group
- who was really terrified of having her picture end up
- on the cover of Time magazine.
- She named cameras squirrels for some reason.
- And as we marched, she would going, squirrel on the right,
- squirrel on the left, and hiding her face.
- And I remember thinking, I would love
- to be on the front of Time magazine.
- I'd look right at the camera, and hope
- they take a picture of me.
- It was very liberating and very exciting.
- And just a party.
- It was a huge party.
- And people on the sidelines were cheering
- us, that was the other thing.
- Of course it was a great tourist attraction.
- Imagine.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So from that experience,
- what did you bring back to Rochester as far as where
- you think may now need to go.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, we needed to have a march.
- We absolutely needed to do that, which
- we have done every year since, and just the activity
- of the march.
- The activity of having a tourist attraction, if you will,
- to be out there in the open.
- And have all these contingents take part.
- I'm always so moved when in our march
- here in Rochester at just how many--
- first it was how many people.
- Now it's how many organizations, how many groups,
- how many people representing all the churches,
- and the parent groups, the groups
- associated with businesses.
- I never could have imagined.
- And I think that anyone standing on the sidelines
- is impressed with that--
- can't help but be impressed with that.
- That was the same of the very first march in New York.
- I can't imagine being a tourist, and just running into that.
- You know?
- Again, how many more people would go home
- with a story to tell?
- How many more people could talk about gay people doing
- this act of coming out?
- It was a huge snowball thing.
- So we brought back the idea of having marches.
- Just the news about how big everything is becoming.
- The good news, we brought back the good news.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you involved with the first picnic
- here in Rochester?
- Just
- KAREN HAGBERG: The first?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: First picnic.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Yes.
- Yes, I was.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
- How that got started, and the importance of an event
- like that, out in a big public park.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right well, again, a public place,
- the day time--
- I remember that people were still afraid.
- People were still in the closet.
- We had more people, I think, from other towns,
- other cities at that event than were
- from Rochester, the first time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me take it back a little bit.
- I need you to set it up for me.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, you know, the first time we
- did a gay picnic I remember--
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Whatever, that kind of thing.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Alright.
- OK.
- The first time we announced a picnic in a public park,
- it was Genesse Valley Park, people were still--
- the average gay person was still pretty closeted, and pretty
- afraid here in Rochester.
- I remember putting up signs for that picnic along Wilson
- Boulevard.
- And being a little wary about doing that.
- I was by myself.
- Being a little afraid.
- I don't know if what, but just being
- out there doing that was a little risky, I felt.
- I recall more people at that event
- from other cities in upstate New York
- than in Rochester, because I think
- that many Rochesterians were a little wary about coming out
- to an event like that in the middle of the park,
- in the middle of the day.
- What would happen?
- Who would see them?
- So, it was furtive, I would say, a little bit.
- People kind of looking around the edges.
- Who's noticing we're here?
- Who's out there?
- Nothing happened.
- It was a great day.
- We had a good time.
- And since then the picnic has become huge.
- It seems that everybody goes and has a good time
- and it's come a long, long way since those days.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, reflecting back on that first picnic,
- just give me a little soundbite about why
- it was so significant, why it became
- such an important catalyst--
- KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, why it keeps coming--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --for where we are today.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Yes, right.
- Yes.
- I think the difference between the closeted--
- the closeted nightlife gay world and going
- to a picnic in the park, or going
- to a dance at a university, is the difference
- between being in the closet and being out.
- As an individual, as a community,
- it's extremely significant being out in the open
- and just saying, here we are, we are here,
- and if you're one of us, please join us.
- Very, very different from sorted nightlife.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just a quick wrap up questions here.
- Recently, gay marriage in New York State has passed.
- Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed.
- Did you ever think you would see the day?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Never.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And how did that make you feel?
- KAREN HAGBERG: No.
- I never thought I would see the day.
- No.
- Never.
- You know, since the beginning of all of this,
- I have constantly been just in the sense of wonder
- about what's happened and how quickly it's happened,
- and how profoundly it has happened.
- The president, the other day--
- you could knock me over, knock me over now.
- It's amazing.
- And at the same time, every step along the way
- has brought out a certain--
- an equal and opposite backlash, kind of.
- The backlash, people are more vocal or vocal
- for the first time in the beginning,
- and they get to be more vocal the more vocal we are.
- So there's that issue to deal with.
- There's a long, long way to go.
- We still don't see gay images in advertising, for example.
- That's huge, it's totally huge because advertising is what
- we all see, like it or not.
- We are totally invisible there even to this day,
- even with all, the gay marriage passing and the president
- saying whatever he said.
- You know, we're still, in a way, invisible in very significant
- areas of life.
- So there's a long, long way to go,
- but I'm still bowled over by what's happened so far now.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: In retrospect, in everything
- that you've been involved in, what are you most proud of?
- What do you look back and say, god, we really
- made a difference there?
- KAREN HAGBERG: I think--
- I mean, myself personally, it's the Speakers Bureau,
- that was so important, and it just started the dialogue.
- But in general, just that I jumped in,
- that I heard the words and said, yeah, we have to go with this.
- And I don't like to say I'm proud of it
- because it's sort of like I was at the right place
- at the right time, and the right mindset,
- and the right time of my life.
- You know, everything was just--
- it seemed like fate, I was just there
- riding that wave when the wave came along.
- I'm really glad I was part of it.
- I like that I was part of it.
- And I'm really glad to see the results.
- I can't believe the results sometimes.
- It's astonishing to me that we've
- come this far in such a short time,
- and yet we have a long way to go.
- So there's still work to be done.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: This next question, and I purposefully
- say this question to last because I know it's
- an emotional thing for you.
- Very early on, when you came to Rochester
- you talked about it at one point,
- going to a psychologist's office at the U of R--
- KAREN HAGBERG: Oh, right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --to try and come to terms
- with what you were feeling at the time.
- KAREN HAGBERG: I'm crying already.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me--
- because I think it's important that people
- realize that struggle that gay people go through.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And really how lucky
- you were that you found a psychologist that kind of told
- you.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right, right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you tell me just a little bit
- about that part of your life?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
- I was single at the time.
- And I had a friend who I was attracted to, who--
- when I finally came out to her, suggested that, you know,
- I was sick and that I should see a psychiatrist.
- And I-- you know, at that point, I really
- didn't know if that would be a good thing to do or what.
- I kind of did it because she said I should, and I said, OK,
- I'll do this.
- Maybe it'll make me feel better.
- This is before gay liberation and that all, OK?
- So I was a graduate student.
- So I went to a doctor at the U of R. Wish
- I remembered his name.
- I went I think to only two sessions.
- And basically, first of all, it was really difficult for me
- to tell him why I was even there.
- No language to use, I didn't know what to say.
- When he found out that I was there because I was lesbian
- and I worried about what to do about that, and da-da-da.
- He asked a few questions.
- He found out I had been in a relationship
- and that had broken up.
- And he asked me if I was happy in that relationship,
- happy being in that relationship.
- And, you know, I said, "Yeah, I was happier than I've ever
- been in my life."
- And he said, "Well, would you like
- to be in another relationship like that one?"
- I said, "Oh yeah, I would really like that."
- And he basically looked at me and said, "Well,
- then, and the problem is?
- What's your problem?"
- And I said, "Well, it just doesn't seem to be OK,
- you know?"
- And he said, "Well, if you were happy, though,
- and having another relationship like
- that then you would be happy, then
- you will get in another relationship like that
- and you'll be happy, and you don't really have to change."
- So that was wonderful.
- I'd like to find the man.
- Anyway, I'm glad I found him and not any number of other people
- I might have found who would make my life a misery.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: If you were to give advice to a young person
- now, who may be questioning same things,
- the up and coming generation.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What advice would you be giving them?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, you know, advice really doesn't--
- advice really doesn't help.
- I guess-- well, maybe it does, I don't know.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you this then.
- For the up and coming generation,
- those young people that are coming up behind us--
- KAREN HAGBERG: I've got to blow my nose.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What-- do you want them to know
- about what you guys did.
- What do you want them to know about Karen Hagberg
- and who she is and what she did for them?
- KAREN HAGBERG: Well, you know, I was just
- a gay person who knew I was gay from the time I was pretty
- young, and I grew up in a world where there
- were no other people like me.
- And I struggled until my early twenties
- to find people who were like me, and find my people.
- And I found my people, and it made my life good.
- So I would say, find your people.
- And now it might be a little bit easier to find your people,
- but you need to find your people and be with them.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good.
- KAREN HAGBERG: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And we're going to leave it there.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.
- KAREN HAGBERG: There it is.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Joe will take that microphone off of you.
- KAREN HAGBERG: OK.