Video Interview, Kathryn Rivers, June 6, 2012
- KEITH: I am recording.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so, Kathryn's for a mic check.
- Just give us the correct spelling
- of your first and last name.
- However you want it identified on the screen.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: All right, my name is Kathryn Rivers,
- and it's spelled K-A-T-H-R-Y-N and Rivers is as you'd expect,
- R-I-V-E-R-S. Sound OK?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Good to go.
- KEITH: That sounds great, thank you.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just start with Lambda first,
- before we get into any kind of pre-gay life
- that you may have had.
- Talk to me about that first time that you
- heard about the possible gay network at Kodak.
- Tell me that story.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: All right, well the first time
- I heard about Lambda, was, I was at work and at my office,
- it was a cubicle.
- And the person who shared the wall of the cubicle,
- on the other side, ran the IP Department
- for that organization I was working in.
- And one day, I'm in my office working,
- and I hear someone come in, and say to him,
- "You're never going to guess what's going on.
- Kodak's going to have a gay network
- and they won't even have a veterans network.
- Well, I thought, well, this is interesting.
- So I got on the company intranet and looked around.
- And sure enough, I looked at the networks and yes, there was.
- And by the way, the veterans did get a network
- and it didn't take too long after.
- But it was interesting to hear this over the wall literally.
- So what I did, was I contacted the person who
- was running the site, the company site,
- and found out when they were meeting and started from there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know if your reaction,
- but what first piqued your interest when you heard this?
- What was kind of going through your mind about, you know,
- gee, is this something that I should look into?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, sure it was
- something I wanted to find out what was going on.
- But I also did one other thing.
- I checked the company policy.
- And they had a nondiscrimination policy that
- included sexual orientation.
- It had been there for quite a while, which
- I thought was interesting.
- So, once I found out that there was
- an official policy protecting employees,
- and this was voluntary, Kodak didn't have to do this.
- But someone decided and made that a policy.
- And the other thing I did, was I wanted
- to talk to my supervision, my management,
- to kind of give them a heads up.
- I wasn't so much looking for permission,
- as just letting them know.
- Letting them be prepared if somehow, someone had a problem
- and came storming in their office, they'd be prepared.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, that brings up
- an interesting question then.
- For a gay and lesbian person at Kodak at that time,
- what was the work environment like?
- Were you all very closeted?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, you know Kodak
- had many working environments.
- I worked in the engineering department.
- And that working environment, I wouldn't say was hostile,
- but it was neutral.
- So I didn't know anyone who was out.
- But I also knew a lot of people that just didn't share much
- of their personal life at work.
- That was the environment.
- So that's what I can say.
- Now I do know there were people who
- worked in environments where it was a lot tougher
- and people were nosy.
- And I would say, especially shift workers
- seem to have some difficulties with people
- being a little too nosy.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So you decided to get involved with the Lambda
- Network?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: I did.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Talk to me about your first impression.
- What the network was like, and what was being discussed?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: OK, well, when I first
- got involved with the network, it was early on.
- And it was in the head of what was called the steering
- committee.
- So there was a group of people that were working,
- and what is the network going to be, what will it stand for?
- The company asked for some specific documents
- like a mission statement, and some bylaws, membership rules,
- and provided a template that you could modify.
- But this was the direction that the company wanted the networks
- to be.
- And by the way, it was important that the networks
- didn't behave like unions.
- These were employee support groups.
- Education was certainly a function of the networks,
- both internal for the members, and external for managers
- or company employees in general.
- So there were some guidelines around how
- that needed to be structured.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about the process
- of writing up the bylaws.
- Again, some of the things that you really
- had to be concerned about, with what you put in,
- and what you didn't, what you couldn't put in.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Now you're testing my memory.
- Bylaws and what was in the bylaws?
- Again, there was sort of a template for the bylaws
- and I don't remember anything.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you a different way.
- In working through the process of coming up
- with bylaws for this network, what
- was set for vision, of what this network should be,
- and what it's mission should be?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Working through the mission and other,
- any supporting documents that were part of the bylaws,
- it was important that this was an organization
- that the members could feel free to belong to.
- Now there are other networks like the Women's Forum
- and African-American Network Northstar.
- One of the things that was unique to Lambda,
- is we really had a lot of discussion around
- is a membership available to who?
- Were the management going to know?
- Could people be anonymous?
- Could people come and not be out and still
- be members of the network?
- Could they be on the board of the network and not be out?
- So we had a lot of discussions, that was really a key issue.
- Some of the other things that were needed to discuss,
- and this is before Kodak had domestic partner benefits, was
- are these things they can approach management on?
- And we couldn't, then we weren't going to.
- That wasn't the purpose of the network.
- The purpose of the network, I think, had two main thrusts.
- One was to support employees who might be having some issues,
- through willingness to go talk to people, managers, or someone
- knew someone else, maybe help in those areas.
- And the other was education.
- Help people understand what it's like to be
- gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender in the workplace.
- What are the issues?
- Why do people want to be out?
- Why do people not want to be out?
- So an education process was a big piece of it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about the challenge
- of getting management to buy into this, into approving it.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Getting management
- to buy into the network, well this was before my time
- in some ways, because George Fischer came to Kodak as CEO.
- But before George Fisher, Kay Whitmore was CEO.
- And he was the CEO who endorsed the networks,
- and also supported having a gay network.
- And there have been some pushbacks.
- The company often had town meetings
- where employees would come, and managers
- would talk about what was going on the company.
- And there were some questions that Mr. Whitmore got directly
- in a very hostile way.
- So that period happened, and we got through it.
- Then the network is getting the bylaws,
- we're shifting from a steering committee
- to a board with membership.
- And what does that mean?
- And so George Fisher had come along.
- And so the people, myself included,
- in the network were saying, why don't we
- do something similar to the other networks,
- and have a company wide event?
- A dinner, bring in a speaker, and we called it the Lambda
- Educational Event.
- So what we did, is we contacted the CEO's assistant.
- I sent him a note, and I said, this
- is what we're thinking about, and we'd
- like to get some help from you.
- I would say within hours he sent a note back, and said
- I'm glad to help.
- Let's set up a meeting and get together.
- So George Fischer was very supportive.
- And since the company had gone through that initial not
- at my company kind of stuff by some employees,
- we've gotten through that, and so now it
- seemed like a good time to do something just
- like the other networks did.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you ever in that process feel like wow,
- we're lucky to be working for a company like Kodak?
- To be able to allow it, because not all companies
- would be so receptive.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: And I agree.
- I felt very fortunate because for a couple of things.
- One is George Fisher came in talking
- about employees and diversity right off the get-go.
- So he set the tone.
- It surprised me some, because Kodak had
- a rather conservative history.
- So to see a company that was pretty conservative, careful,
- had a tradition in marketing of families and babies,
- this is a big deal.
- But it seemed to be falling into place in the right way.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, I'm going to save this question till later.
- Let's talk about that Person Management education.
- Well, actually there was one that would, with Deb Price,
- right?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Fundraising, that
- actually didn't go over too well with Kodak management,
- is that correct?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me
- a little bit about that event and the fallbacks of it?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Yeah the first event that the network put on
- was having Deb Price, who
- was a syndicated newspaper columnist, and actually
- part of Gannett newspaper system.
- We invited her to come and speak.
- And actually, she spoke at a local church.
- So this wasn't a Kodak event per se.
- But the network was promoting her
- and the network was using her as a way to raise some funds.
- Now what got confusing, is that since Deb Price was a Gannett
- columnist, the newspaper interviewed her
- when she was in town.
- And the newspaper also called someone,
- who was active in the network, to talk to her
- and say, what are you doing?
- So she had a telephone interview with a reporter.
- And the next day in the newspapers,
- there's an article about Deb Price and this Kodak network
- and fundraising.
- And there are people who work in corporate communications,
- and when they were having their coffee that morning,
- I am sure that's the last thing they wanted to see.
- I didn't even know about this and Kodak, a major company,
- is doing fundraising?
- That's crazy.
- So the message got confused.
- And with some phone calls and people meeting,
- it got straightened out.
- But it certainly wasn't something
- that the communication people wanted
- to see in the newspapers.
- So a couple of things happened.
- One is, we all got some training in communications
- and how to talk to the press, so that was good.
- And then the other thing is, the vice president of HR
- realized that some of the networks
- were being favored in certain ways over others.
- And certain managers had some discretionary funding
- that they were using to support networks.
- And it was pretty lumpy and uneven.
- So the other good thing that came out of it
- was, is they said, OK look, if we're
- going to have these networks and employees will be involved,
- then we will provide some resources to them.
- We need to do it more equitably.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So then there's another management
- event, a big one, with George Fisher and Elizabeth Birch.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes actually that was the first management
- event we had.
- George Fisher had been here, I'm not even sure a year,
- and we were lucky enough to secure Elizabeth Birch, who
- was then the head of the Human Rights Campaign,
- to come and speak.
- And so we did our due diligence.
- We rehearsed, and contacted people, and shared scripts,
- and shared our program.
- And this is what we're going to do,
- because we knew everybody wanted to know, what is
- this thing going to be about?
- But, again, we're trying to keep in line with what
- the other networks had done.
- They had done a company wide event like this
- with dinner and speakers.
- When the time came to have it, there
- was a lot of nervousness about it.
- But what happened was, let me get my thoughts here.
- I'm hesitating about saying something,
- but I guess I because they were open about it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They probably won't like it,
- but I'd write it down anyways.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: All right, well here's the deal.
- So the evening of the event, we're there,
- we had written some little vignettes
- to help people understand some of the workplace
- issues, emergency calls, things like that, that you know,
- sometimes people catch people unprepared to deal
- with situations.
- So we're there at the party house,
- and you could tell that the Lambda Network
- people and their supporters were kind of milling around,
- were working.
- The managers had come, they're lined up at the bar,
- they're all looking at what's going on.
- And in walks George Fisher and Ann Fisher.
- If you ever wanted a great example of how to work a room,
- those two did it.
- George went over and started to engage some of his managers.
- Ann Fisher came over, started talking to people.
- And let me back up here a second.
- George Fisher and Ann Fisher walked in the room,
- and they immediately engage the crowd.
- And George Fisher talked to some of his managers,
- but he also talked to people in the room.
- Ann Fisher did the same.
- They came up and they talked to people.
- They introduced themselves, they talked to just about everybody.
- And I remember Ann Fisher coming up to me,
- and extending her hand, and saying, "How do you do,
- I'm Ann Fisher, and we have this diversity in our family."
- It was just amazing.
- So, I would say the evening was easy.
- But the program went on as planned,
- and by the end of the evening, I think
- that tension that was in the room really was gone.
- It was great.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: From that management event, and your work
- through the Lambda Network, over the course of,
- I don't know how many years, but how did you know, or was there
- any particular moment that told you
- that we're making an impact here, at this corporation.
- We're really doing something good?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: I would say I knew that we were really
- gaining some ground there, the network
- had an impact, when a couple of things happened.
- One was, the Lambda Network got a great reputation
- for putting on good management events.
- People enjoyed going to them, they
- felt they got something out of it.
- So, it was interesting that even hearing the secretary say,
- let's see, if we put this on the schedule for this manager,
- or that one, oh, let's make sure he goes to the Lambda event.
- That's kind of amazing.
- It was really pretty casual like that.
- The other thing is, we had people joining the networks
- that I knew initially weren't going to do it
- or even hadn't considered it.
- So even though they didn't want to be out at work,
- they felt it was valuable to spend their time
- and get involved.
- So we saw some of that too.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Which leads me to my next question,
- that Kodak in a way, is kind of a tale of two city.
- You know, you have Kodak offices and people
- more at the professional level, who
- seem to be probably more inclined to join an employee
- network.
- But you also have the manufacturing floors,
- and you know, maybe people not being so comfortable
- with being open, or knowing enough to even--
- that this network even existed.
- How did you deal with that?
- How did the network deal with that other part of Kodak,
- which is really a big, main part of Kodak,
- in educating those people?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, I would say
- that Kodak being such a large company,
- and yes, there is a corporate different environment,
- and State Street, and the office area,
- versus Kodak Park, which is manufacturing.
- And also Elmgrove, which is another large manufacturing
- area.
- But also, research is at Kodak Park and the manufacturing.
- So, one of the places that I think a lot of networks
- got some early champions was from the technical areas, kind
- of the research and the engineering.
- I don't know what reason for, but that's what happened.
- And I'd say the office environment, sure,
- we had people there who felt comfortable.
- When you get into areas where manufacturing,
- either in the factories areas or some of the support
- areas like machine shops, first of all
- they're not working in an office,
- so they don't have maybe, as easy a way
- to communicate with people.
- But also, things are somewhat different.
- One of the things that the networks did, and all
- the networks did this, Lambda included,
- was to put on what they called Brown Bag Sessions.
- Different departments, let's say in,
- I'm thinking of one area where we went,
- which was this machining environment.
- They had different committees, safety,
- but they also had a diversity committee.
- And we met with the Brown Bag Session.
- And you come in, and you might just
- have something to share that was recent in the news.
- But those were informal, and those worked out pretty well.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Beyond the walls of Kodak,
- what impact did you think Lambda Network at Kodak
- had in the overall community?
- Because, you know, you obviously had
- involvement with the network at Bausch and Lomb, Xerox,
- and that.
- But the science of setting up an educational environment
- for Kodak employees, I think you have
- your (unintelligible) off of Kodak Park and off of Kodak
- offices into the community.
- Did you see any impact, were you able to recognize
- any impact that your network at Kodak was having communitywide?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: The Lambda Network
- had impacts both in the local community
- and the national community.
- Local community, sure, other large companies
- like Bausch and Lomb and Xerox had their own initiatives
- that were different.
- But I would say we did some good sharing of best practices.
- And I think Kodak was ahead of the curve.
- Then also, now it didn't hurt to have
- Elizabeth Birch, who was the head of the HRC,
- come and meet with us.
- And she was the first speaker at the Lambda Educational Event.
- So she got to meet us, and was, I have to say,
- was pretty impressed with what we were up to.
- So that was part of helping us sort of get
- more of a national stage for what we were doing.
- We did go to several conferences,
- Creating Change is one of them, which
- were gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual focus conferences.
- But we were doing a lot of sharing of what we were
- up to with other companies.
- I would say Kodak, probably in the top, at one point,
- five companies around, just kind of helping
- both the employees and the companies learn and grow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- I'm gonna throw some names of just some key people at Lambda
- that you got to work with.
- Just want you to do overall impressions of these people
- and in your opinion, and what their significant contribution
- to the Network was.
- The first one obviously is David, David Kozel.
- Tell me about David, and why was he
- so significant in the success of Lambda?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: David Kozel, David
- was one of the initial steering committee members.
- Known a lot of people, really somebody
- that speaks from his heart.
- And he was instrumental.
- He had met a woman at a conference,
- and then his partner had met a woman.
- And this wasn't by design, but it was just by happenstance.
- She was part of the senior executive
- education and development, so they got to know each other.
- It's great when a few people sort of meet.
- And it's just kind of like a tipping
- point that gets things going.
- But David isn't shy, and he was certainly one
- to, in a very kind and friendly way,
- make the most out of whatever he could.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Emily.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Emily Jones, I met Emily.
- I had met Emily, interesting, before Lambda.
- We had crossed paths in the engineering and research
- departments, but we really hadn't worked together.
- Emily is very thoughtful, and has a long vision.
- And looks ahead to see what's needed,
- and doesn't drop the ball.
- Emily stays right on top of what's needed.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Dan Sapper.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Dan Sapper, well, I
- met Dan through the Lambda Network,
- and Dan is someone who's, really wants to make
- sure the details are right.
- And he's certainly very supportive,
- and he's very understanding and helpful when it comes to,
- is there something that needs to get sorted out.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me a little bit, again,
- back to making Kodak a more gay-friendly place to work.
- Can you talk to me about Lambda Network
- making it possible for Kodak to fit that
- into their work environment?
- For Kodak to become a more progressive company,
- to attract better employees to the company?
- You know, really kind of tied in with everything
- they were trying to do with diversity.
- But where did Lambda fit in, in helping Kodak become a more
- progressive company as far as diversity in gay acceptance
- comes into play?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: How Lambda, Lambda, I'm sorry here,
- but I've got to think about this a second.
- Lambda's impact on the company, particularly in hiring,
- was interesting.
- And I heard it a few times, that people who were coming,
- interviewing for positions at the company,
- and some people who were recruited
- as well for specific positions, had commented
- that when they looked at what Kodak was offering,
- and they looked at the benefits, and found out
- that Kodak had domestic partner benefits,
- they found that very favorable even though they personally
- didn't need them.
- I remember one manager kind of remarking, he says,
- well, this guy is married, and you know, why?
- But what he told the manager was,
- it's an indication to me of the kind of company that Kodak is
- and that's important.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Which leads me to something
- that I didn't even think about.
- Lambda had some influence on getting domestic partnership
- benefits passed that (unintelligible).
- KATHRYN RIVERS: No, Lambda had no influence
- on domestic partnerships.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: None, well you can't say, legally.
- (laughs) Let's put it this way.
- Kodak came to Lambda seeking some consultation
- on domestic partnerships at one point, right?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Here's how I think
- Kodak evolved into having domestic partner benefits.
- At our very first educational event, George Fisher was there
- and he made a comment to his vice
- president of human relations.
- And he said, why don't we take another look
- at domestic partner benefits?
- No one had asked him directly that evening
- to do anything about it.
- We were just too scared to do anything
- that was going to look or feel like anything like that,
- making demands.
- What I heard a few weeks or months later,
- I'm not sure of the frame, there was a committee
- formed by this vice president.
- And they worked at it, and they worked at it at least for six
- months, I think.
- They looked into what were the options,
- how much it was going to cost.
- And one thing I do know, that there
- was someone who could have headed that committee
- and wasn't chosen, because it was
- felt that, that person was too prejudiced against the idea.
- So, these are things you find out later.
- But the committee did work on it,
- and made their recommendations, and it was adopted.
- The other part of that story is that as the committee was
- working on these documents, they did share them
- with the network, and said what do you think?
- Are we on track?
- How's it going?
- But again, it's that relationship and ownership that
- needed to be done correctly.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about something more fun.
- Life before Kodak.
- You're a gay woman in Rochester.
- I don't know what years we're speaking of here, '70s?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Early '70s.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- What was life in Rochester like for a lesbian?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Gosh, do we have to?
- All right, Rochester in the early '70s.
- You know, things were changing.
- I mean, there was a lot of social change or unrest,
- however you want to describe it going on.
- Certainly the Vietnam War was going on.
- The women's movement, I had heard
- about the event in New York City, the Stonewall tavern.
- For me, coming out, getting to know people,
- there were a few bars in town.
- One of them was run by the mafia, a little spooky.
- One of them was a pretty nice place
- to go that was kind of like a dance club.
- But really, most of the gay life was bars.
- There really wasn't much going on.
- But at that time, there was a student group
- at the University of Rochester that was starting to form.
- And they called themselves the Gay Liberation Front
- at the University of Rochester.
- What was happening though, and it wasn't by design,
- but some of the people who were friends with students
- who were in the community, started
- to come to the meetings.
- All of a sudden, this organization that was really
- designed to be a student group was starting
- to become a community group.
- And there was a need to kind of break that
- off, and let the student group be the student group.
- Then the people who had gotten involved with this
- started to create some groups in the community,
- so that was evolving too.
- So there was a lot going on.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you actively seeking alternatives
- to the bars?
- Were there alternatives out there
- for you other than what was on the university campus?
- Was it frustrating, that the bar scene was pretty much it?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, the bar scene for me
- was frustrating because it wasn't
- that, what am I going to say?
- The bar scene was frustrating, it was limiting,
- but a lot of these bars weren't in great neighborhoods.
- I mean, I was really, like wow, this is it?
- It's kind of disappointing.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Lot of the women have
- talked about the Riverview.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Remember the Riverview?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Oh yeah, yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me about the Riverview.
- What was it like?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: The Riverview?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Why did you go there?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: The Riverview was a women's bar,
- somewhat accidental.
- The woman who owned it was this great Italian grandmother type
- figure.
- Just a little woman who was very caring,
- and she had run this bar earlier with her husband.
- He wasn't in good health, but she wanted to keep running it.
- And I don't know how it evolved into a women's bar,
- but it was in kind of an odd location, and kind of a place
- that you wouldn't normally just drive by.
- But anyways, it was this bar.
- And it was a nice place.
- It wasn't a great place, you know, it had a bar
- and it had a pool table in the other room.
- But you could go there any night of the week,
- and either watch a television show
- or visit with some friends.
- On the weekend, it got pretty packed.
- And it was a place that you really kind of felt at home.
- It wasn't like some of the other bars.
- Like I mentioned, there was a bar run by the mafia.
- I never felt at home there.
- But here's this little woman, and everybody protected her,
- and she cared about everybody.
- It was a really nice atmosphere.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What I'm trying to get a sense of too is,
- you know, in the bar scene in the '70s and '80s,
- whatever, back in the time, because that really
- was some of the social outlets for gays and lesbians,
- what was being talked about?
- What were some of the conversations like?
- You know, was activism coming into the conversations?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: What was being, oh my God.
- I guess it depends on who you talk to.
- Some people were just fine with it being 100% social.
- There were some discussions about politics.
- But politics, I mean compared to where we are today,
- I mean, New York State, we have a marriage equity.
- And the military, with the don't ask,
- don't tell, is gone by the wayside.
- And now we've evolved, so that supposedly everyone
- can be open in who they are.
- So, to think about where we are today,
- and backtrack 40 years to the early '70s,
- the political thing, it was pretty limited.
- It was just how do we get organizations together,
- and to provide what?
- We know some people need some support.
- Some people just need to meet people
- in healthier environments.
- At the time, the drinking law was 18,
- so that was a pretty low barrier for most people.
- Now that it's 21, having places where younger adults can
- get together is important.
- Needs change, thinking changes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You mentioned the GLS started
- at the university campus, and then expanding out
- into community organizations, which eventually became the Gay
- Alliance.
- Did you go to any of the GLS meetings
- while it was on campus?
- Did you get involved?
- Or when they moved off campus?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: I did go to the meetings at the Gay Liberation
- Front, and I met some good friends there,
- lifelong friends.
- But I wasn't a student.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, let's pick it up from the beginning now.
- What drew you to--
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Oh, what drew me.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The GLS?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: I don't know what happened.
- I can't remember why I, how did I hear?
- And I walked in by myself.
- I had heard about it somehow.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well then, let's
- pick it up from there then.
- Talk to me about the first time you
- went in there, what your first impression was.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: OK, the first time
- I met, I went to the University of Rochester's Gay Liberation
- Front meeting.
- I went by myself.
- There was, I would say, five or six people there.
- I did meet a good friend, who turned into a lifelong friend,
- there.
- And since I wasn't a student, some people who were there were
- students and some people weren't.
- It was just eye opening.
- It was like, here we're talking about what should this group
- be, and what's its purpose, and actually, it was really good.
- It was good to be in a different kind of environment like that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Did it spark a different kind
- of thinking for you, as far as who you were
- and where wanted to go in life?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: That experience at that first meeting
- did get me thinking.
- But it was hard to know just what it meant, you know.
- But it did open up some, just a way of being, I guess.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: To wrap it up, when
- way in the future, when somebody's looking back
- at Rochester's gay and lesbian history for the past 40,
- 50 years now, when they look back at your story, what
- do you want them to know most about who you were,
- and more importantly, what you personally did
- for making this a better place for gay and lesbian people
- to live and work?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: What do I want people to know, or think of?
- I guess I'd like people to think that, just I
- was part of what was going on, and what
- was needed at the time.
- I think for people who are coming of age now,
- they see the world in a different way
- than I saw a world that was presented
- to me when I was in my 20s.
- So, I guess I'd just like to be given credit
- for doing what was needed.
- I'm not saying anything specific,
- and I hope people appreciate that what's needed today
- is a continuation of what we're handed from other people.
- KEITH: Kevin.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- KEITH: That was really explained what a network is, that Kodak.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, kind of good, but yeah, let's do that.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Keith's noticing that no one like,
- (interposing voices)
- Or somebody has specifically explained
- what a network at Kodak is.
- And maybe, if you touched base on that very fine line
- that you had to walk, because Kodak's a non-union company
- and you couldn't appear to be union.
- But what were networks at Kodak and how were they set up?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Networks at Kodak,
- and other companies call them employee resource groups.
- There may be some other terms out there as well.
- But the idea was to help employees,
- diverse employees have a place to connect
- with other employees.
- I want to make sure I'm not making something up here,
- but the networks' purpose was to help employees,
- I don't know if I have a, let's see what are the,
- let's say forget the purpose business.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: From my mind, I think there was two purposes.
- One was how to connect an employee.
- But also, the other was to help educate management.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, that's what happened.
- I'm wondering if that was the stated purpose though.
- I'm thinking of the mission statement,
- and I helped work on it.
- The networks really were a resource for employees,
- to help them connect with each other.
- Sometimes people felt that they were maybe too disconnected,
- you know, separated from other employees
- that they would have common ground with, or common thinking
- or interests.
- But the other thing that the networks, I think,
- did an outstanding job was to educate the company
- and management on what diversity meant
- through many different lenses.
- Does that fit?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- KEITH: Yeah, we're good.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You got a clear picture now?
- KEITH: I do.
- (laughter)
- KATHRYN RIVERS: OK, because we did
- do a lot of tiptoeing around.
- KEITH: Oh yeah.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: And again, I think in a good way
- to try to collaborate instead of make demands.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: What is Lambda?
- KATHRYN RIVERS: What is Lambda?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- KEITH: It's an old Greek term.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: It is, and it doesn't have,
- I mean I don't know if anybody's really nailed it, but yeah.
- Maybe it's someone's Ph project, that they're working
- on it today as we speak.
- But who knows.
- KEITH: From what I understand, it's
- an old Greek term that represents gay people, I think.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Somehow, I mean, it's
- a letter of the Greek alphabet.
- KEITH: Right.
- But it has some sort of connection, particularly
- gay men back in ancient Greek times.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Maybe, but you know there
- were so many closeted things.
- Even like gay was like an undercover,
- you know, a word to sort of.
- Not today, but at that time, way back when.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, way back I mean, they always
- (unintelligible) oh, he's just doing stuff.
- KATHRYN RIVERS: Lots of things came from undercover,
- kind of covert.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right, yeah.