Video Interview, Kathryn Rivers, June 6, 2012

  • KEITH: I am recording.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so, Kathryn's for a mic check.
  • Just give us the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name.
  • However you want it identified on the screen.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: All right, my name is Kathryn Rivers,
  • and it's spelled K-A-T-H-R-Y-N and Rivers is as you'd expect,
  • R-I-V-E-R-S. Sound OK?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Good to go.
  • KEITH: That sounds great, thank you.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just start with Lambda first,
  • before we get into any kind of pre-gay life
  • that you may have had.
  • Talk to me about that first time that you
  • heard about the possible gay network at Kodak.
  • Tell me that story.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: All right, well the first time
  • I heard about Lambda, was, I was at work and at my office,
  • it was a cubicle.
  • And the person who shared the wall of the cubicle,
  • on the other side, ran the IP Department
  • for that organization I was working in.
  • And one day, I'm in my office working,
  • and I hear someone come in, and say to him,
  • "You're never going to guess what's going on.
  • Kodak's going to have a gay network
  • and they won't even have a veterans network.
  • Well, I thought, well, this is interesting.
  • So I got on the company intranet and looked around.
  • And sure enough, I looked at the networks and yes, there was.
  • And by the way, the veterans did get a network
  • and it didn't take too long after.
  • But it was interesting to hear this over the wall literally.
  • So what I did, was I contacted the person who
  • was running the site, the company site,
  • and found out when they were meeting and started from there.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know if your reaction,
  • but what first piqued your interest when you heard this?
  • What was kind of going through your mind about, you know,
  • gee, is this something that I should look into?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, sure it was
  • something I wanted to find out what was going on.
  • But I also did one other thing.
  • I checked the company policy.
  • And they had a nondiscrimination policy that
  • included sexual orientation.
  • It had been there for quite a while, which
  • I thought was interesting.
  • So, once I found out that there was
  • an official policy protecting employees,
  • and this was voluntary, Kodak didn't have to do this.
  • But someone decided and made that a policy.
  • And the other thing I did, was I wanted
  • to talk to my supervision, my management,
  • to kind of give them a heads up.
  • I wasn't so much looking for permission,
  • as just letting them know.
  • Letting them be prepared if somehow, someone had a problem
  • and came storming in their office, they'd be prepared.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, that brings up
  • an interesting question then.
  • For a gay and lesbian person at Kodak at that time,
  • what was the work environment like?
  • Were you all very closeted?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, you know Kodak
  • had many working environments.
  • I worked in the engineering department.
  • And that working environment, I wouldn't say was hostile,
  • but it was neutral.
  • So I didn't know anyone who was out.
  • But I also knew a lot of people that just didn't share much
  • of their personal life at work.
  • That was the environment.
  • So that's what I can say.
  • Now I do know there were people who
  • worked in environments where it was a lot tougher
  • and people were nosy.
  • And I would say, especially shift workers
  • seem to have some difficulties with people
  • being a little too nosy.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So you decided to get involved with the Lambda
  • Network?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: I did.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Talk to me about your first impression.
  • What the network was like, and what was being discussed?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: OK, well, when I first
  • got involved with the network, it was early on.
  • And it was in the head of what was called the steering
  • committee.
  • So there was a group of people that were working,
  • and what is the network going to be, what will it stand for?
  • The company asked for some specific documents
  • like a mission statement, and some bylaws, membership rules,
  • and provided a template that you could modify.
  • But this was the direction that the company wanted the networks
  • to be.
  • And by the way, it was important that the networks
  • didn't behave like unions.
  • These were employee support groups.
  • Education was certainly a function of the networks,
  • both internal for the members, and external for managers
  • or company employees in general.
  • So there were some guidelines around how
  • that needed to be structured.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about the process
  • of writing up the bylaws.
  • Again, some of the things that you really
  • had to be concerned about, with what you put in,
  • and what you didn't, what you couldn't put in.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Now you're testing my memory.
  • Bylaws and what was in the bylaws?
  • Again, there was sort of a template for the bylaws
  • and I don't remember anything.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you a different way.
  • In working through the process of coming up
  • with bylaws for this network, what
  • was set for vision, of what this network should be,
  • and what it's mission should be?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Working through the mission and other,
  • any supporting documents that were part of the bylaws,
  • it was important that this was an organization
  • that the members could feel free to belong to.
  • Now there are other networks like the Women's Forum
  • and African-American Network Northstar.
  • One of the things that was unique to Lambda,
  • is we really had a lot of discussion around
  • is a membership available to who?
  • Were the management going to know?
  • Could people be anonymous?
  • Could people come and not be out and still
  • be members of the network?
  • Could they be on the board of the network and not be out?
  • So we had a lot of discussions, that was really a key issue.
  • Some of the other things that were needed to discuss,
  • and this is before Kodak had domestic partner benefits, was
  • are these things they can approach management on?
  • And we couldn't, then we weren't going to.
  • That wasn't the purpose of the network.
  • The purpose of the network, I think, had two main thrusts.
  • One was to support employees who might be having some issues,
  • through willingness to go talk to people, managers, or someone
  • knew someone else, maybe help in those areas.
  • And the other was education.
  • Help people understand what it's like to be
  • gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender in the workplace.
  • What are the issues?
  • Why do people want to be out?
  • Why do people not want to be out?
  • So an education process was a big piece of it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me about the challenge
  • of getting management to buy into this, into approving it.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Getting management
  • to buy into the network, well this was before my time
  • in some ways, because George Fischer came to Kodak as CEO.
  • But before George Fisher, Kay Whitmore was CEO.
  • And he was the CEO who endorsed the networks,
  • and also supported having a gay network.
  • And there have been some pushbacks.
  • The company often had town meetings
  • where employees would come, and managers
  • would talk about what was going on the company.
  • And there were some questions that Mr. Whitmore got directly
  • in a very hostile way.
  • So that period happened, and we got through it.
  • Then the network is getting the bylaws,
  • we're shifting from a steering committee
  • to a board with membership.
  • And what does that mean?
  • And so George Fisher had come along.
  • And so the people, myself included,
  • in the network were saying, why don't we
  • do something similar to the other networks,
  • and have a company wide event?
  • A dinner, bring in a speaker, and we called it the Lambda
  • Educational Event.
  • So what we did, is we contacted the CEO's assistant.
  • I sent him a note, and I said, this
  • is what we're thinking about, and we'd
  • like to get some help from you.
  • I would say within hours he sent a note back, and said
  • I'm glad to help.
  • Let's set up a meeting and get together.
  • So George Fischer was very supportive.
  • And since the company had gone through that initial not
  • at my company kind of stuff by some employees,
  • we've gotten through that, and so now it
  • seemed like a good time to do something just
  • like the other networks did.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did you ever in that process feel like wow,
  • we're lucky to be working for a company like Kodak?
  • To be able to allow it, because not all companies
  • would be so receptive.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: And I agree.
  • I felt very fortunate because for a couple of things.
  • One is George Fisher came in talking
  • about employees and diversity right off the get-go.
  • So he set the tone.
  • It surprised me some, because Kodak had
  • a rather conservative history.
  • So to see a company that was pretty conservative, careful,
  • had a tradition in marketing of families and babies,
  • this is a big deal.
  • But it seemed to be falling into place in the right way.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, I'm going to save this question till later.
  • Let's talk about that Person Management education.
  • Well, actually there was one that would, with Deb Price,
  • right?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Fundraising, that
  • actually didn't go over too well with Kodak management,
  • is that correct?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me
  • a little bit about that event and the fallbacks of it?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Yeah the first event that the network put on
  • was having Deb Price, who
  • was a syndicated newspaper columnist, and actually
  • part of Gannett newspaper system.
  • We invited her to come and speak.
  • And actually, she spoke at a local church.
  • So this wasn't a Kodak event per se.
  • But the network was promoting her
  • and the network was using her as a way to raise some funds.
  • Now what got confusing, is that since Deb Price was a Gannett
  • columnist, the newspaper interviewed her
  • when she was in town.
  • And the newspaper also called someone,
  • who was active in the network, to talk to her
  • and say, what are you doing?
  • So she had a telephone interview with a reporter.
  • And the next day in the newspapers,
  • there's an article about Deb Price and this Kodak network
  • and fundraising.
  • And there are people who work in corporate communications,
  • and when they were having their coffee that morning,
  • I am sure that's the last thing they wanted to see.
  • I didn't even know about this and Kodak, a major company,
  • is doing fundraising?
  • That's crazy.
  • So the message got confused.
  • And with some phone calls and people meeting,
  • it got straightened out.
  • But it certainly wasn't something
  • that the communication people wanted
  • to see in the newspapers.
  • So a couple of things happened.
  • One is, we all got some training in communications
  • and how to talk to the press, so that was good.
  • And then the other thing is, the vice president of HR
  • realized that some of the networks
  • were being favored in certain ways over others.
  • And certain managers had some discretionary funding
  • that they were using to support networks.
  • And it was pretty lumpy and uneven.
  • So the other good thing that came out of it
  • was, is they said, OK look, if we're
  • going to have these networks and employees will be involved,
  • then we will provide some resources to them.
  • We need to do it more equitably.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So then there's another management
  • event, a big one, with George Fisher and Elizabeth Birch.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes actually that was the first management
  • event we had.
  • George Fisher had been here, I'm not even sure a year,
  • and we were lucky enough to secure Elizabeth Birch, who
  • was then the head of the Human Rights Campaign,
  • to come and speak.
  • And so we did our due diligence.
  • We rehearsed, and contacted people, and shared scripts,
  • and shared our program.
  • And this is what we're going to do,
  • because we knew everybody wanted to know, what is
  • this thing going to be about?
  • But, again, we're trying to keep in line with what
  • the other networks had done.
  • They had done a company wide event like this
  • with dinner and speakers.
  • When the time came to have it, there
  • was a lot of nervousness about it.
  • But what happened was, let me get my thoughts here.
  • I'm hesitating about saying something,
  • but I guess I because they were open about it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: They probably won't like it,
  • but I'd write it down anyways.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: All right, well here's the deal.
  • So the evening of the event, we're there,
  • we had written some little vignettes
  • to help people understand some of the workplace
  • issues, emergency calls, things like that, that you know,
  • sometimes people catch people unprepared to deal
  • with situations.
  • So we're there at the party house,
  • and you could tell that the Lambda Network
  • people and their supporters were kind of milling around,
  • were working.
  • The managers had come, they're lined up at the bar,
  • they're all looking at what's going on.
  • And in walks George Fisher and Ann Fisher.
  • If you ever wanted a great example of how to work a room,
  • those two did it.
  • George went over and started to engage some of his managers.
  • Ann Fisher came over, started talking to people.
  • And let me back up here a second.
  • George Fisher and Ann Fisher walked in the room,
  • and they immediately engage the crowd.
  • And George Fisher talked to some of his managers,
  • but he also talked to people in the room.
  • Ann Fisher did the same.
  • They came up and they talked to people.
  • They introduced themselves, they talked to just about everybody.
  • And I remember Ann Fisher coming up to me,
  • and extending her hand, and saying, "How do you do,
  • I'm Ann Fisher, and we have this diversity in our family."
  • It was just amazing.
  • So, I would say the evening was easy.
  • But the program went on as planned,
  • and by the end of the evening, I think
  • that tension that was in the room really was gone.
  • It was great.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: From that management event, and your work
  • through the Lambda Network, over the course of,
  • I don't know how many years, but how did you know, or was there
  • any particular moment that told you
  • that we're making an impact here, at this corporation.
  • We're really doing something good?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: I would say I knew that we were really
  • gaining some ground there, the network
  • had an impact, when a couple of things happened.
  • One was, the Lambda Network got a great reputation
  • for putting on good management events.
  • People enjoyed going to them, they
  • felt they got something out of it.
  • So, it was interesting that even hearing the secretary say,
  • let's see, if we put this on the schedule for this manager,
  • or that one, oh, let's make sure he goes to the Lambda event.
  • That's kind of amazing.
  • It was really pretty casual like that.
  • The other thing is, we had people joining the networks
  • that I knew initially weren't going to do it
  • or even hadn't considered it.
  • So even though they didn't want to be out at work,
  • they felt it was valuable to spend their time
  • and get involved.
  • So we saw some of that too.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Which leads me to my next question,
  • that Kodak in a way, is kind of a tale of two city.
  • You know, you have Kodak offices and people
  • more at the professional level, who
  • seem to be probably more inclined to join an employee
  • network.
  • But you also have the manufacturing floors,
  • and you know, maybe people not being so comfortable
  • with being open, or knowing enough to even--
  • that this network even existed.
  • How did you deal with that?
  • How did the network deal with that other part of Kodak,
  • which is really a big, main part of Kodak,
  • in educating those people?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, I would say
  • that Kodak being such a large company,
  • and yes, there is a corporate different environment,
  • and State Street, and the office area,
  • versus Kodak Park, which is manufacturing.
  • And also Elmgrove, which is another large manufacturing
  • area.
  • But also, research is at Kodak Park and the manufacturing.
  • So, one of the places that I think a lot of networks
  • got some early champions was from the technical areas, kind
  • of the research and the engineering.
  • I don't know what reason for, but that's what happened.
  • And I'd say the office environment, sure,
  • we had people there who felt comfortable.
  • When you get into areas where manufacturing,
  • either in the factories areas or some of the support
  • areas like machine shops, first of all
  • they're not working in an office,
  • so they don't have maybe, as easy a way
  • to communicate with people.
  • But also, things are somewhat different.
  • One of the things that the networks did, and all
  • the networks did this, Lambda included,
  • was to put on what they called Brown Bag Sessions.
  • Different departments, let's say in,
  • I'm thinking of one area where we went,
  • which was this machining environment.
  • They had different committees, safety,
  • but they also had a diversity committee.
  • And we met with the Brown Bag Session.
  • And you come in, and you might just
  • have something to share that was recent in the news.
  • But those were informal, and those worked out pretty well.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Beyond the walls of Kodak,
  • what impact did you think Lambda Network at Kodak
  • had in the overall community?
  • Because, you know, you obviously had
  • involvement with the network at Bausch and Lomb, Xerox,
  • and that.
  • But the science of setting up an educational environment
  • for Kodak employees, I think you have
  • your (unintelligible) off of Kodak Park and off of Kodak
  • offices into the community.
  • Did you see any impact, were you able to recognize
  • any impact that your network at Kodak was having communitywide?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: The Lambda Network
  • had impacts both in the local community
  • and the national community.
  • Local community, sure, other large companies
  • like Bausch and Lomb and Xerox had their own initiatives
  • that were different.
  • But I would say we did some good sharing of best practices.
  • And I think Kodak was ahead of the curve.
  • Then also, now it didn't hurt to have
  • Elizabeth Birch, who was the head of the HRC,
  • come and meet with us.
  • And she was the first speaker at the Lambda Educational Event.
  • So she got to meet us, and was, I have to say,
  • was pretty impressed with what we were up to.
  • So that was part of helping us sort of get
  • more of a national stage for what we were doing.
  • We did go to several conferences,
  • Creating Change is one of them, which
  • were gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual focus conferences.
  • But we were doing a lot of sharing of what we were
  • up to with other companies.
  • I would say Kodak, probably in the top, at one point,
  • five companies around, just kind of helping
  • both the employees and the companies learn and grow.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • I'm gonna throw some names of just some key people at Lambda
  • that you got to work with.
  • Just want you to do overall impressions of these people
  • and in your opinion, and what their significant contribution
  • to the Network was.
  • The first one obviously is David, David Kozel.
  • Tell me about David, and why was he
  • so significant in the success of Lambda?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: David Kozel, David
  • was one of the initial steering committee members.
  • Known a lot of people, really somebody
  • that speaks from his heart.
  • And he was instrumental.
  • He had met a woman at a conference,
  • and then his partner had met a woman.
  • And this wasn't by design, but it was just by happenstance.
  • She was part of the senior executive
  • education and development, so they got to know each other.
  • It's great when a few people sort of meet.
  • And it's just kind of like a tipping
  • point that gets things going.
  • But David isn't shy, and he was certainly one
  • to, in a very kind and friendly way,
  • make the most out of whatever he could.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Emily.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Emily Jones, I met Emily.
  • I had met Emily, interesting, before Lambda.
  • We had crossed paths in the engineering and research
  • departments, but we really hadn't worked together.
  • Emily is very thoughtful, and has a long vision.
  • And looks ahead to see what's needed,
  • and doesn't drop the ball.
  • Emily stays right on top of what's needed.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Dan Sapper.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Dan Sapper, well, I
  • met Dan through the Lambda Network,
  • and Dan is someone who's, really wants to make
  • sure the details are right.
  • And he's certainly very supportive,
  • and he's very understanding and helpful when it comes to,
  • is there something that needs to get sorted out.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me a little bit, again,
  • back to making Kodak a more gay-friendly place to work.
  • Can you talk to me about Lambda Network
  • making it possible for Kodak to fit that
  • into their work environment?
  • For Kodak to become a more progressive company,
  • to attract better employees to the company?
  • You know, really kind of tied in with everything
  • they were trying to do with diversity.
  • But where did Lambda fit in, in helping Kodak become a more
  • progressive company as far as diversity in gay acceptance
  • comes into play?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: How Lambda, Lambda, I'm sorry here,
  • but I've got to think about this a second.
  • Lambda's impact on the company, particularly in hiring,
  • was interesting.
  • And I heard it a few times, that people who were coming,
  • interviewing for positions at the company,
  • and some people who were recruited
  • as well for specific positions, had commented
  • that when they looked at what Kodak was offering,
  • and they looked at the benefits, and found out
  • that Kodak had domestic partner benefits,
  • they found that very favorable even though they personally
  • didn't need them.
  • I remember one manager kind of remarking, he says,
  • well, this guy is married, and you know, why?
  • But what he told the manager was,
  • it's an indication to me of the kind of company that Kodak is
  • and that's important.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Which leads me to something
  • that I didn't even think about.
  • Lambda had some influence on getting domestic partnership
  • benefits passed that (unintelligible).
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: No, Lambda had no influence
  • on domestic partnerships.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: None, well you can't say, legally.
  • (laughs) Let's put it this way.
  • Kodak came to Lambda seeking some consultation
  • on domestic partnerships at one point, right?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Here's how I think
  • Kodak evolved into having domestic partner benefits.
  • At our very first educational event, George Fisher was there
  • and he made a comment to his vice
  • president of human relations.
  • And he said, why don't we take another look
  • at domestic partner benefits?
  • No one had asked him directly that evening
  • to do anything about it.
  • We were just too scared to do anything
  • that was going to look or feel like anything like that,
  • making demands.
  • What I heard a few weeks or months later,
  • I'm not sure of the frame, there was a committee
  • formed by this vice president.
  • And they worked at it, and they worked at it at least for six
  • months, I think.
  • They looked into what were the options,
  • how much it was going to cost.
  • And one thing I do know, that there
  • was someone who could have headed that committee
  • and wasn't chosen, because it was
  • felt that, that person was too prejudiced against the idea.
  • So, these are things you find out later.
  • But the committee did work on it,
  • and made their recommendations, and it was adopted.
  • The other part of that story is that as the committee was
  • working on these documents, they did share them
  • with the network, and said what do you think?
  • Are we on track?
  • How's it going?
  • But again, it's that relationship and ownership that
  • needed to be done correctly.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk about something more fun.
  • Life before Kodak.
  • You're a gay woman in Rochester.
  • I don't know what years we're speaking of here, '70s?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Early '70s.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • What was life in Rochester like for a lesbian?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Gosh, do we have to?
  • All right, Rochester in the early '70s.
  • You know, things were changing.
  • I mean, there was a lot of social change or unrest,
  • however you want to describe it going on.
  • Certainly the Vietnam War was going on.
  • The women's movement, I had heard
  • about the event in New York City, the Stonewall tavern.
  • For me, coming out, getting to know people,
  • there were a few bars in town.
  • One of them was run by the mafia, a little spooky.
  • One of them was a pretty nice place
  • to go that was kind of like a dance club.
  • But really, most of the gay life was bars.
  • There really wasn't much going on.
  • But at that time, there was a student group
  • at the University of Rochester that was starting to form.
  • And they called themselves the Gay Liberation Front
  • at the University of Rochester.
  • What was happening though, and it wasn't by design,
  • but some of the people who were friends with students
  • who were in the community, started
  • to come to the meetings.
  • All of a sudden, this organization that was really
  • designed to be a student group was starting
  • to become a community group.
  • And there was a need to kind of break that
  • off, and let the student group be the student group.
  • Then the people who had gotten involved with this
  • started to create some groups in the community,
  • so that was evolving too.
  • So there was a lot going on.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you actively seeking alternatives
  • to the bars?
  • Were there alternatives out there
  • for you other than what was on the university campus?
  • Was it frustrating, that the bar scene was pretty much it?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, the bar scene for me
  • was frustrating because it wasn't
  • that, what am I going to say?
  • The bar scene was frustrating, it was limiting,
  • but a lot of these bars weren't in great neighborhoods.
  • I mean, I was really, like wow, this is it?
  • It's kind of disappointing.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Lot of the women have
  • talked about the Riverview.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Remember the Riverview?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Oh yeah, yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me about the Riverview.
  • What was it like?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: The Riverview?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Why did you go there?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: The Riverview was a women's bar,
  • somewhat accidental.
  • The woman who owned it was this great Italian grandmother type
  • figure.
  • Just a little woman who was very caring,
  • and she had run this bar earlier with her husband.
  • He wasn't in good health, but she wanted to keep running it.
  • And I don't know how it evolved into a women's bar,
  • but it was in kind of an odd location, and kind of a place
  • that you wouldn't normally just drive by.
  • But anyways, it was this bar.
  • And it was a nice place.
  • It wasn't a great place, you know, it had a bar
  • and it had a pool table in the other room.
  • But you could go there any night of the week,
  • and either watch a television show
  • or visit with some friends.
  • On the weekend, it got pretty packed.
  • And it was a place that you really kind of felt at home.
  • It wasn't like some of the other bars.
  • Like I mentioned, there was a bar run by the mafia.
  • I never felt at home there.
  • But here's this little woman, and everybody protected her,
  • and she cared about everybody.
  • It was a really nice atmosphere.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What I'm trying to get a sense of too is,
  • you know, in the bar scene in the '70s and '80s,
  • whatever, back in the time, because that really
  • was some of the social outlets for gays and lesbians,
  • what was being talked about?
  • What were some of the conversations like?
  • You know, was activism coming into the conversations?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: What was being, oh my God.
  • I guess it depends on who you talk to.
  • Some people were just fine with it being 100% social.
  • There were some discussions about politics.
  • But politics, I mean compared to where we are today,
  • I mean, New York State, we have a marriage equity.
  • And the military, with the don't ask,
  • don't tell, is gone by the wayside.
  • And now we've evolved, so that supposedly everyone
  • can be open in who they are.
  • So, to think about where we are today,
  • and backtrack 40 years to the early '70s,
  • the political thing, it was pretty limited.
  • It was just how do we get organizations together,
  • and to provide what?
  • We know some people need some support.
  • Some people just need to meet people
  • in healthier environments.
  • At the time, the drinking law was 18,
  • so that was a pretty low barrier for most people.
  • Now that it's 21, having places where younger adults can
  • get together is important.
  • Needs change, thinking changes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You mentioned the GLS started
  • at the university campus, and then expanding out
  • into community organizations, which eventually became the Gay
  • Alliance.
  • Did you go to any of the GLS meetings
  • while it was on campus?
  • Did you get involved?
  • Or when they moved off campus?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: I did go to the meetings at the Gay Liberation
  • Front, and I met some good friends there,
  • lifelong friends.
  • But I wasn't a student.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, let's pick it up from the beginning now.
  • What drew you to--
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Oh, what drew me.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: The GLS?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: I don't know what happened.
  • I can't remember why I, how did I hear?
  • And I walked in by myself.
  • I had heard about it somehow.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, well then, let's
  • pick it up from there then.
  • Talk to me about the first time you
  • went in there, what your first impression was.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: OK, the first time
  • I met, I went to the University of Rochester's Gay Liberation
  • Front meeting.
  • I went by myself.
  • There was, I would say, five or six people there.
  • I did meet a good friend, who turned into a lifelong friend,
  • there.
  • And since I wasn't a student, some people who were there were
  • students and some people weren't.
  • It was just eye opening.
  • It was like, here we're talking about what should this group
  • be, and what's its purpose, and actually, it was really good.
  • It was good to be in a different kind of environment like that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Did it spark a different kind
  • of thinking for you, as far as who you were
  • and where wanted to go in life?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: That experience at that first meeting
  • did get me thinking.
  • But it was hard to know just what it meant, you know.
  • But it did open up some, just a way of being, I guess.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: To wrap it up, when
  • way in the future, when somebody's looking back
  • at Rochester's gay and lesbian history for the past 40,
  • 50 years now, when they look back at your story, what
  • do you want them to know most about who you were,
  • and more importantly, what you personally did
  • for making this a better place for gay and lesbian people
  • to live and work?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: What do I want people to know, or think of?
  • I guess I'd like people to think that, just I
  • was part of what was going on, and what
  • was needed at the time.
  • I think for people who are coming of age now,
  • they see the world in a different way
  • than I saw a world that was presented
  • to me when I was in my 20s.
  • So, I guess I'd just like to be given credit
  • for doing what was needed.
  • I'm not saying anything specific,
  • and I hope people appreciate that what's needed today
  • is a continuation of what we're handed from other people.
  • KEITH: Kevin.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • KEITH: That was really explained what a network is, that Kodak.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, kind of good, but yeah, let's do that.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Keith's noticing that no one like,
  • (interposing voices)
  • Or somebody has specifically explained
  • what a network at Kodak is.
  • And maybe, if you touched base on that very fine line
  • that you had to walk, because Kodak's a non-union company
  • and you couldn't appear to be union.
  • But what were networks at Kodak and how were they set up?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Networks at Kodak,
  • and other companies call them employee resource groups.
  • There may be some other terms out there as well.
  • But the idea was to help employees,
  • diverse employees have a place to connect
  • with other employees.
  • I want to make sure I'm not making something up here,
  • but the networks' purpose was to help employees,
  • I don't know if I have a, let's see what are the,
  • let's say forget the purpose business.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: From my mind, I think there was two purposes.
  • One was how to connect an employee.
  • But also, the other was to help educate management.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Well, that's what happened.
  • I'm wondering if that was the stated purpose though.
  • I'm thinking of the mission statement,
  • and I helped work on it.
  • The networks really were a resource for employees,
  • to help them connect with each other.
  • Sometimes people felt that they were maybe too disconnected,
  • you know, separated from other employees
  • that they would have common ground with, or common thinking
  • or interests.
  • But the other thing that the networks, I think,
  • did an outstanding job was to educate the company
  • and management on what diversity meant
  • through many different lenses.
  • Does that fit?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • KEITH: Yeah, we're good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You got a clear picture now?
  • KEITH: I do.
  • (laughter)
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: OK, because we did
  • do a lot of tiptoeing around.
  • KEITH: Oh yeah.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: And again, I think in a good way
  • to try to collaborate instead of make demands.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: What is Lambda?
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: What is Lambda?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
  • KEITH: It's an old Greek term.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: It is, and it doesn't have,
  • I mean I don't know if anybody's really nailed it, but yeah.
  • Maybe it's someone's Ph project, that they're working
  • on it today as we speak.
  • But who knows.
  • KEITH: From what I understand, it's
  • an old Greek term that represents gay people, I think.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Somehow, I mean, it's
  • a letter of the Greek alphabet.
  • KEITH: Right.
  • But it has some sort of connection, particularly
  • gay men back in ancient Greek times.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Maybe, but you know there
  • were so many closeted things.
  • Even like gay was like an undercover,
  • you know, a word to sort of.
  • Not today, but at that time, way back when.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, way back I mean, they always
  • (unintelligible) oh, he's just doing stuff.
  • KATHRYN RIVERS: Lots of things came from undercover,
  • kind of covert.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Right, yeah.