Video Interview, Larry Fine, March 25, 2013

  • CREW: I'm going to roll the camera.
  • Going to do a quick slate so they have it.
  • This is clip one.
  • And you can start.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: OK, Larry.
  • Talk about coming to terms with your gay identity at college.
  • And hear a brief mention of that psych prof.
  • who facilitated your coming out.
  • LARRY FINE: Well, I entered the U of R in the fall of 1968
  • as a physics major.
  • I was kind of nerdy, Tending toward being a lonely guy.
  • Not very social.
  • Pleasant enough, but not very social.
  • And the first year was very tough.
  • It was tough, in part, because I wasn't doing well in physics.
  • But it was also tough because I was very lonely.
  • The social scene was basically men and women hooking up
  • with each other.
  • And I just didn't fit into that, and really
  • didn't know what to do about it.
  • I knew I was gay, although I didn't
  • know the word gay at the time.
  • I had had no contact whatsoever with any other gay people.
  • I didn't know there was any gay community.
  • I knew nothing, except that I was weird, an outsider.
  • And so the combination of the difficulties
  • with my studies and the difficulties socially,
  • I was fairly unhappy.
  • By the end of that year, I also realized
  • I was going to need to look for another major.
  • And I started to take some psychology courses.
  • And one of them was taught by a very well-liked professor, Jay
  • Efran, who was a short man with shockingly red hair
  • who was very funny.
  • And his classes were, if anything, oversubscribed.
  • And during one of his classes--
  • I don't remember, this might have
  • been the summer between my freshman and sophomore years,
  • or maybe it was the fall of my sophomore year--
  • he mentioned that he was going to be
  • doing some kind of experiment having to do with counseling.
  • And he was looking for volunteers.
  • So I volunteered.
  • Somehow I had a feel like I might get some benefit from it.
  • And the counseling sessions were weekly, I believe.
  • And there was usually a grad student present.
  • And at first we just talked about my loneliness and so on.
  • Eventually he started to ask me about sex,
  • and I didn't want to talk about it.
  • At some point the grad student disappeared.
  • And maybe the experiment ended, but he kept me
  • on for counseling because he could see I was
  • getting something out of it.
  • And he began to press me to talk about sex.
  • And I finally got the courage to tell him
  • that I thought I was a homosexual.
  • It was very difficult for me to get that out of my mouth.
  • And, in fact, he had me repeat it several times
  • to get used to saying it.
  • And then he told me that it was OK, and that blew my mind.
  • I had never imagined that somebody
  • would tell me that it was OK.
  • So for a number of sessions we worked on that.
  • And I don't remember too many details about it,
  • but it was very, very helpful to me.
  • Finally, toward the spring, I think, of--
  • I guess would be the spring of 1970--
  • he told me that he thought it would be of benefit for me
  • to be--
  • to meet other gay students.
  • And he told me that it was really not proper-- according
  • to professional ethics-- for him to be introducing me
  • to other students-- other gay students.
  • But that, in fact, he thought that's exactly what I needed.
  • And that he was going to do that,
  • if it was OK with me, and of course
  • with the permission of the other students.
  • So first he introduced me to somebody
  • who was a little bit wishy-washy about their sexual orientation,
  • and not a very likable person.
  • And that didn't help me very much.
  • But then he finally introduced me
  • to someone who was a very likable guy, very handsome,
  • a graduating senior, active in theater.
  • His name was Jeff.
  • And Jeff told me all about the gay movement, and about
  • San Francisco, and about--
  • that there was a whole community of people like us,
  • and a whole movement going on.
  • And that was the beginning of the rest of my life.
  • And I remember the day that that happened,
  • it was April 28, 1970.
  • And everything changed for me after that.
  • And one of the things that changed
  • was that I decided then and there that come the summer,
  • I was going to have to go out to San Francisco
  • and see for myself what was happening.
  • And my plan was to come back to Rochester in the fall
  • and start a gay liberation group.
  • So that's how it all started.
  • And as an example of my excitement you might say--
  • or as a symptom of that--
  • about a week after my meeting with Jeff I actually put an ad
  • in the Campus Times-- a classified ad--
  • I did it anonymously.
  • I remember it cost fifty cents, and I
  • put my fifty cents and my copy in an envelope
  • and dropped it in the slot through the door at night.
  • And it said, "Take heart, brothers, gay lib is coming."
  • That's all it said.
  • There was no phone number, no name, no nothing.
  • So that was the beginning of--
  • that was the beginning of gay liberation in Rochester,
  • at least for me.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Yeah.
  • And then the next fall--
  • CREW: Well, just before you ask, Pete, could you bring your seat
  • a little bit further over.
  • A little bit more.
  • There we go, perfect.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: And then the next fall
  • talk about seeing the notice that
  • suddenly appeared at the first meeting of the gay liberation
  • front.
  • And what did you think, and how did you feel when you saw that?
  • LARRY FINE: After I had put that notice in the Campus Times,
  • I stayed on campus for the summer doing some work
  • or taking some courses.
  • And then in August, I put a pack on my back
  • and I hitchhiked to San Francisco from Rochester.
  • Now that was an epic journey as well,
  • although not pertinent to the topic here.
  • Except that I did go out there.
  • I spent a few weeks out there, and found my way
  • to the gay liberation subculture there that was just starting.
  • Interestingly, while I was there someone
  • told me that someone from Rochester
  • had passed through there and was going
  • to start a group in the fall.
  • That was actually my first inkling of it.
  • And I think they gave me a name, although it was not
  • Bob Osborn's name, it was somebody else's name.
  • While I was in San Francisco, I came down
  • with mono, mononucleosis.
  • I got quite sick.
  • And I got myself back to Rochester,
  • but was not able to do anything immediately
  • by starting a group.
  • And then at some point, I saw this notice
  • about a group that was starting.
  • I don't remember where I saw it, whether it was on a bulletin
  • board, or whether there was a notice in the Campus Times.
  • I don't recall.
  • But I did go to the meeting.
  • I don't remember a lot about the meeting.
  • It was in Todd, which was the union--
  • the student union at the time.
  • There were not a lot of people there.
  • Bob Osborn and Pierre Lawson were leading it, along with,
  • I think somebody from a Cornell group
  • that started around that time, or earlier as well.
  • And the three of them talked to the assembled group--
  • and they were I think just a few students--
  • but I don't remember exactly.
  • And part of my feeling was a little bit of envy,
  • because I had wanted to start the group.
  • But I wasn't in a position to because
  • of my illness at that time.
  • I don't remember a lot of what I felt in that meeting.
  • I think mostly I felt great expectations,
  • and curiosity about who else would be there.
  • And that's all I remember really.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Any fear walking into that room?
  • Any hesitation?
  • LARRY FINE: I don't recall fear about it.
  • I can't imagine I might--
  • I must not have felt some nervousness.
  • But remember that I had just been to San Francisco--
  • the center of it all--
  • and had been very pumped up by that.
  • So I think my feelings were more about the opportunities
  • to come than the fear of what might happen
  • or who might see me.
  • CREW: OK, let's stop there.
  • (pause in recording)
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: --those topics.
  • It's moving.
  • That's moved along.
  • That's moved along nicely.
  • CREW: Clip two.
  • And when you're ready.
  • LARRY FINE: What's next on our list?
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: OK.
  • In the early meetings, what kinds of things
  • were talked about?
  • And what were people trying to achieve?
  • And why were the meetings so necessary?
  • LARRY FINE: Well, Bob Osborn had come out
  • of the civil rights movement.
  • And he very much wanted to equate the gay movement
  • with the civil rights movement.
  • To use all of the same terminology, the same concepts,
  • and so on.
  • And he knew, I think, that most of us
  • had no consciousness about our being gay
  • except in extremely personal terms.
  • And he wanted people to know the larger picture.
  • So he had a series of meetings he had planned--
  • that he already planned once a week or once every two weeks,
  • for the next month or two--
  • about the homosexual and the law, the homosexual
  • and the military, and so on and so forth.
  • And for each of them had speakers planned.
  • And I think there was also a subtext, you might say,
  • of the social interactions that would happened
  • was well between people.
  • Although that was not really planned exactly,
  • but that would be an obvious outcome as well.
  • So the meetings were a little bit
  • formal in their organization, at least at the beginning
  • to get things started.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: And could you give us
  • a quick take, just more on Bob?
  • What was he like?
  • And what about his-- you've talk about his leadership--
  • and what contributions do you see that he made
  • to the gay liberation front?
  • LARRY FINE: Well, Bob deserves a lot
  • of credit, obviously, for starting this and putting
  • together programs and bringing speakers in and all that.
  • I got to know Bob quite well, and we became friends.
  • I found him a bit stiff and doctrinaire, to be honest.
  • But he also had a fun side, and a good sense of humor, too.
  • He was very judgmental I would say.
  • And he wanted to put everything in political terms.
  • And, for me in particular, my coming out
  • was recent and was a very personal journey.
  • And although I came to be able to speak the political talk,
  • I never completely bought into it, I think.
  • It was a very personal thing for me.
  • But Bob was there for the first few months,
  • and then he had doctoral research to do in astrophysics.
  • He was a grad student in astrophysics,
  • and he had doctoral research to do in Texas.
  • And he was gone a great deal of the time from--
  • I'm guessing-- December through March or April
  • or something like that.
  • And so he started-- he got the ball rolling--
  • and then he left it for the rest of us
  • to kind of keep things going.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Was Karen Hagberg part of that group?
  • And what do you remember of her contributions and activities?
  • LARRY FINE: Karen was part of the group.
  • I don't have very much recollection of her.
  • CREW: Could you start that over and say her full name?
  • LARRY FINE: Yeah.
  • Karen Hagberg was part of the group.
  • I don't have a great deal of recollection about her.
  • You know, the group was technically a River Campus
  • group, and Karen was at Eastman, along with RJ Alcala.
  • And they did things at Eastman, and I don't remember very much
  • about that.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Could you talk about the first dance
  • that was held on campus?
  • What do you remember about planning it?
  • And then, what about that evening, the atmosphere,
  • the people, the excitement?
  • And then looking back, why do you
  • think this was a significant event for the gay community,
  • particularly Gays on Campus?
  • LARRY FINE: The first dance we had--
  • which was in December, which was co-sponsored
  • by the Women's Liberation Front--
  • was a very significant event for the group.
  • For one thing, it was the most public event
  • we had done up to that point.
  • Although the other meetings we had weren't technically public,
  • this was one to which everyone was invited.
  • And it was also significant in some ways, because at the time
  • a lot of youth culture was centered around dances.
  • Now, that may still be true.
  • I don't know, I have no connection
  • with youth culture today.
  • But dances were really important.
  • And the idea that we would be able to dance
  • with others of the same sex was very, very significant.
  • Now, to be honest, most dancing at that time--
  • and probably today too-- is just a whole lot
  • of wiggle on your own, it really doesn't
  • matter who you are near.
  • But even so, we considered it very significant,
  • and we put a lot of effort into planning.
  • I only remember a few little tidbits about the planning.
  • I remember at the last minute running over
  • to the reserve reading room--
  • at Rush Rhees Library, where I worked part time--
  • to get a rubber stamp that we could
  • used to stamp on people's hands to show they paid.
  • And the one particular rubber stamp I picked up
  • was the one that said score.
  • It was the one that was stamped on musical scores, you know.
  • And it was just by accident that that happened.
  • I think we had beer at the event.
  • I have a vague recollection about having
  • to order kegs of beer or something of that nature.
  • But it was very exciting.
  • It was well-attended, even though it was a snowy evening.
  • And I don't know how many people there were there,
  • but I wouldn't be surprised if there
  • were at least one hundred.
  • It was very big.
  • And we had a great time, really had a great time.
  • I seem to recall that maybe some photos were taken of the event
  • as well.
  • I have some in my mind, that stick out in my mind.
  • One unfortunate thing that happened at the dance--
  • which is not known by most people--
  • is that the monetary proceeds of the dance
  • were ripped off afterwards and never recovered.
  • And that's a whole other story.
  • It was actually ripped off by a member of the group.
  • And we could not get the money back, or we did not try.
  • I don't know exactly what happened.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Could you talk about the birth
  • of the Empty Closet in the newspaper?
  • And whose idea was it?
  • And what did the early issues look like?
  • And what was it that Gay Liberation Front
  • members were trying to achieve with the publication?
  • LARRY FINE: Concerning the birth of the Empty Closet you know,
  • every organization has to have a newsletter of some kind.
  • And that was certainly as true then as it is today.
  • It was a lot more of a chore then to put a newsletter out
  • than it is today.
  • There was no internet and no websites, no computers.
  • And so everything was done either with printing presses
  • or mimeograph machines.
  • We started the Empty Closet as a combination
  • of a newsletter and a literary magazine, you might say.
  • And it was a eight-and-a-half by eleven folded in half
  • and stapled in the middle kind of thing.
  • And I don't remember how many pages, maybe sixteen
  • or thirty-two pages.
  • And I believe it was mimeographed.
  • I have a recollection for the first issue
  • of Bob Osborn taking a number of us
  • downtown to a friend of his who ran a print shop--
  • and who did printing for what was known as The Movement,
  • meaning the left-- the leftist groups--
  • and showing us how to run the mimeograph machine,
  • or showing us how to type stencils up
  • or something like that.
  • So the first few issues had a mixture
  • of news announcements, poetry, stories, coming out stories.
  • Coming out stories were very big around that time.
  • During those days, the first thing
  • you would do when you got to know someone who was gay
  • would be to exchange coming out stories.
  • That was the central way that you'd communicate at first.
  • Now, kids come out in high school, and it's no big deal.
  • But back then it was a big deal.
  • You know, what did your parents say and all that kind of stuff.
  • After a while this literary magazine--
  • I think we only put out one or two
  • issues of this little magazine.
  • After that we realized it wasn't going
  • to get done if we had to do that much work.
  • So we changed it to a two sided sheet
  • that came out once every couple of weeks or something.
  • I do remember about the name.
  • We were debating the name, and I still
  • remember the room in which we were seated.
  • There were several of us there, and somebody mentioned
  • Fag Rag as a name, but that was considered too male oriented
  • and a little bit derogatory.
  • And then the word closet was mentioned, because coming out
  • of the closet was a big theme.
  • And then RJ, RJ Alcala, said, how about the Empty Closet?
  • And that name stuck.
  • That's the name that was used.
  • CREW: OK.
  • Let's reset again.
  • (pause in recording)
  • LARRY FINE: Yeah, I know.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Yeah.
  • CREW: Clip three.
  • LARRY FINE: So a little bit more about the Empty Closet--
  • what I remember.
  • One thing I remember is that--
  • well, first of all, I wrote an article called Feelin' Gay
  • for--
  • actually not for the Empty Closet, but for the UR Journal.
  • The UR Journal was a literary magazine
  • that was-- that the student body put out at that time.
  • And my article was potentially very controversial.
  • It was actually very explicit.
  • It was about my own coming out journey,
  • and I connected it with some political themes.
  • But it contained some things in it
  • that were sexually somewhat explicit,
  • and might even be considered controversial today.
  • But to their credit, they ran it.
  • And then the Empty Closet reprinted it pretty soon
  • after that.
  • I actually got very good feedback about that article.
  • And that was my big coming out to the campus actually.
  • Even though I had been--
  • I was very involved with the group
  • through the winter and the spring--
  • and in fact probably did as much work
  • for the organization as anybody at that time
  • especially while Bob Osborn was gone.
  • That was my first big coming out to the campus at large.
  • And I got a lot of really good feedback
  • from people who were very happy to see that I had found myself.
  • That was what they said.
  • That I had found myself.
  • CREW: No, let's start back.
  • (pause in recording)
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: --main issues that the political process
  • was going to push for.
  • For instance, today it's gay marriage.
  • CREW: Clip four.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: But for them it would have been--
  • would it have been simply the sodomy laws?
  • Is that-- whatever.
  • Is
  • LARRY FINE: Right.
  • Well--
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: OK.
  • Ready?
  • LARRY FINE: The Empty Closet had in it
  • a large variety of articles.
  • You have to remember that this was a new organization,
  • and a new movement.
  • It wasn't specialized.
  • It wasn't one group that just did legislative work,
  • and one group that did social work, et cetera.
  • One group had to do everything.
  • And so the organization did a little of everything.
  • And the Empty Closet had a little of everything in it.
  • There were articles about gays and the law, about sodomy law.
  • The group had done some work with the New York State
  • Assembly to revise the sodomy law,
  • to get rid of the sodomy law, and also revise
  • other laws that affected gays.
  • And there were some reports about that.
  • There was a very large march on the state capitol in Albany
  • by gays throughout New York State in the spring,
  • in March of 1971.
  • That was reported on extensively.
  • There were coming out stories.
  • There were-- there was poetry celebrating gay love.
  • It was just a little of everything
  • in the magazine at that time--
  • in the Empty Closet-- whether it was a magazine
  • or a brief newsletter.
  • So it covered the gamut really.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: And did the--
  • so the social activism circa 1970, that was rampant
  • certainly on the campus.
  • And how did that actions of the day
  • influence or even propel some more of your actions
  • for gay lib?
  • LARRY FINE: Concerning the effect
  • that the social movements of the day
  • had on the gay movement in Rochester,
  • clearly it had a big effect.
  • Everything from what we named the group--
  • Gay Liberation Front-- which was after the Women's Liberation
  • Front, which was after something that had to do with Vietnam,
  • I don't remember exactly.
  • Certainly the anti-war movement was a very big deal there.
  • And the terminologies were similar that
  • were used to talk about it.
  • It also made everyone more accepting
  • of any group that was coming out and proclaiming its liberation.
  • So there was a lot more acceptance
  • at that time of basically any group that
  • would come out that way.
  • CREW: Just repeat that--
  • those last few lines.
  • LARRY FINE: OK.
  • CREW: Did you lose your thought?
  • LARRY FINE: I lost my thought, yeah.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: About-- in general
  • about how the activist groups, and so much
  • activity and the anti-war movement,
  • allowed for things to be more accepted or more open.
  • LARRY FINE: The anti-war movement and the movement
  • for black liberation and women's liberation,
  • it set the whole tone that made it easier for gay liberation
  • to be accepted.
  • People at least, were-- had their minds open to it,
  • even if they weren't quite sure what to do with it.
  • And the terminology was similar, and it
  • was just a whole atmosphere of openness to new ideas.
  • And the backlash to the gay movement
  • really didn't start for a while.
  • It took a while for people to think about it,
  • and to develop arguments against it
  • or reasons for arguments against it, if they were so inclined.
  • One of the byproducts that I'm particularly
  • aware of of this tying of the gay movement
  • to the larger leftist movement, is that anyone who came out
  • as a gay person I think felt inclined
  • or almost compelled to accept the entire leftist line--
  • political line, whatever it was--
  • as being part of what they were going into,
  • part of what they were accepting when they came out.
  • And I was able to talk the political talk as well
  • as anyone.
  • But I think that it was on some level I didn't buy all of it.
  • In part because I didn't think America was terrible,
  • and other things like that.
  • And it took a while for me-- and probably
  • for a lot of other people-- to sort out exactly where
  • their politics were.
  • But at the beginning, I think everybody just
  • accepted the whole thing.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Now, looking back on those days,
  • what are you most proud of in terms of your involvement
  • with the Gay Liberation Front and with the Empty Closet?
  • LARRY FINE: Well, I didn't set out really to change society
  • in a big way.
  • I think, for me, it was very intensely personal.
  • And I didn't speak in political terms
  • as much as say Bob Osborn did.
  • I think that the biggest effect I have on other people
  • was just living my life and being an example.
  • And as an example of that, about twenty years later
  • I reconnected with some people I had known at Rochester
  • as a freshman and sophomore--
  • some gay people-- but people who were not at the time
  • that I was there.
  • And much to my surprise--
  • I mean, I thought they wouldn't even remember me--
  • much to my surprise I was a hero to them.
  • The article I had written in the UR Journal and other things
  • I had done had made a profound effect on them,
  • and it helped them to come out a few years later.
  • It's surprised me, but it also taught
  • me a lesson that just be who you are
  • can have a tremendous effect on other people,
  • even if you don't realize it at the time.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Now, how should history
  • reflect upon the work that was being done back then,
  • and example?
  • And the foundation that was being
  • set for the future LGBT activists,
  • and what about the courage that it
  • took for people to step forward back in those days
  • and demand to be acknowledged?
  • CREW: Hold on, before--
  • (pause in recording)
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: --people's fears about being
  • able to step forward and do things publicly.
  • Not fears in that regard.
  • LARRY FINE: You know, everybody's situation
  • is different.
  • I didn't have a lot of fears about coming out.
  • Actually, my biggest fears about coming out
  • were telling my parents, and that I
  • didn't do it for quite a while.
  • I did that at the time I was--
  • at the same time I told them I was dropping out of college.
  • And I'm not sure which was more troublesome to them.
  • The River Campus was it was a pretty sheltered place,
  • and people were very accepting.
  • There are a lot of other situations
  • where I can imagine it would be a lot more
  • frightening to people to come out,
  • perhaps in the workplace or other things.
  • I didn't have a lot of fears about that.
  • And I also-- in general-- tend to be a bit of a risk taker,
  • and tend to see more opportunities than risks.
  • And I think I did things then that I'd probably
  • be afraid to do today.
  • You know, partly out of , naivety and because I was
  • in a sheltered environment.
  • But everybody has to determine these things for themselves
  • as to when to take risks, and what the effect may be.
  • It's not something you can make a blanket statement about.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: Spirit of the times maybe, too.
  • CREW: Is that it?
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: That's it.
  • (pause in recording)
  • LARRY FINE: Actually, they did fund us,
  • but there was some controversy about that.
  • I don't know.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: OK.
  • That's cool.
  • CREW: Is there anything that you-- that pops out
  • to you that you might want to share or add?
  • LARRY FINE: You know, we already did
  • a two hour audiotape on this.
  • And I got all of it.
  • CREW: You've exhausted the subject.
  • LARRY FINE: I've exhausted the subject.
  • You know, it's too bad that can't be integrated into this.
  • Because there's probably a lot of things that were on there
  • that are of interest.
  • But do you recall anything that we talked about?
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: I think that these are chief topics.
  • It's just it's just great.
  • And things that you had also--
  • I mean, you'd talked, again, about your professor
  • and just how really, really lucky you were, and what
  • a wonderful man he was.
  • LARRY FINE: Yeah, he was.
  • Yeah.
  • BRUCE WOOLLEY: I think we've got a lot of--