Video Interview, Michael Robertson, May 23, 2012

CREW: OK.

Kevin, I'm all set.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So like I said, this

is just a conversation between you and I.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Ignore all the lights, ignore the camera,

pretend they're not even here.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Alright.

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK?

And again, if you start speaking and you say oh, I

can say something better than that, just stop and say,

let me try that again, and we'll go for it, OK?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Alright.

KEVIN INDOVINO: First and foremost,

because we need a microphone check,

give us the correct spelling of your first and last name.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: OK.

It is Michael, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, Robertson, R-O-B-E-R-T-S-O-N.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Sounded good.

CREW: Sounds good.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright.

So Michael, just to kind of warm up here a little bit--

early seventies--

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --you're here in Rochester--

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --talk to me about what life

was like here in Rochester.

Particularly, what was the gay community

like here in Rochester?

Where did you socialize?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Well a lot of my socialization was actually

through the Gay Alliance and with friends that I met there,

people I met working with there.

So I will say evenings out on weekends, that sort of thing,

was frequently at some of the gay bars in town.

So they were my social venues.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm trying to get

a sense of those social venues as being, really,

some of the only places that a lot of people

had to go socialize-- a lot of gay people.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: That's true.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you talk to me

a little bit about that, that these

were some of the only places that people could go to?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah, exactly.

Some of the-- and of course, there was more than one gay bar

in town--

some turn over-- some of the gay bars came, some went,

and one at the time, Jim's Bar, was perhaps

the biggest and best known.

There were also gay spas for men,

and that was where some people went as well.

And I do think one of the important things we were doing

with the Alliance was, we were trying

to provide an alternative to the bars as a social place to come.

So we for sure had a program on various topics

having to do with the gay community on Sunday nights.

Every Sunday night we had somebody who

would have a program planned.

It was open to the public.

Anybody, of course, could come.

And we were also having potlucks, various activities

on the weekends as an alternative to the bar scene

which some people welcomed and were glad to get away

from that, I think-- from the bar scene,

in particular because of all the alcohol, I think.

So, let's see, what else can I tell you about that?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me just follow up

on two thoughts there.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: We're going to get to the alternative part

in just a moment.

A lot of people talk about Jim's, and I just

want to get a sense about what was Jim's like?

Do you remember your first time when

you went to Jim's and your experience there?

Describe for me what it was like going to Jim's.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Going to Jim's?

Let's see-- it was a large place, multiple rooms,

and when you entered, there was a long bar in that portion

of Jim's, and then there was another room of cafe tables

all around where you could sit, and then

a third room that was the disco room with very loud seventies

disco music, crystal ball, lots of people dancing,

and it was just very unique, I will say, at the time,

to be able to have someplace where you could go and dance

with people of the same sex.

So primarily gay men.

Rarely any gay women at Jim's.

So I think the bar scene was segregated fairly well here

between bars for women, for the lesbian community,

and bars for gay men.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And I just want to expand

upon this a little bit more, about trying

to develop an alternative to the bar scene.

I mean, even back then--

I mean that's still a discussion that even goes on today.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But even back then, that

was something that you guys were concerned about.

Again, talk to me about some of the activities with the Gay

Alliance and such, what you were trying

to provide as an alternative.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah.

Well, we were trying to provide something

that was alcohol free, or at least

had some alcohol free component to it, and, in fact,

we did have people who belonged to the Gay Alliance who came,

who were also members of Alcoholics Anonymous.

And there was a lot of concern about all

of the alcohol in the gay community,

because if you feel like primarily your sole meeting

spot or socialization spot is a bar,

then that encourages drinking, and particularly if you're

a little lonely too, and sitting at the bar

and drinking, that sort of thing--

so we wanted to be sure and provide an alternative to that.

So that's when we got into having potlucks and coffee

houses at the Alliance and evening programs on Sundays.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Thank you.

So let's move on.

OK, I've got it.

I've got to get your time frame correct here.

By this time, the Gay Alliance has already formed, right?

Because there was the GLF which then got

kicked off campus, which eventually

became the Gay Alliance.

But the GLF was still on campus as well.

There was still the GLF on campus, right?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes, the Gay Liberation Front,

as it was called then--

those of us from the community who were not students

at the University of Rochester broke off

from the Gay Liberation Front and left there

in the summer of 1973.

So-- and that was at the request, actually,

of the student government then, who said,

"We're funding an organization here--"

the Gay Liberation Front--

"with student fees, and yet there

are very few students in this organization now.

It's community members."

Which, by the way, just went to show you the great need

to have someplace other than the bars and the growing

consciousness about being gay and out at the time,

that there were so many people who

were coming to these meetings that were not students--

members of the community--

and the power of the Empty Closet newspaper at that time

as well, which the Gay Liberation Front started

and put out and distributed in the community

and drew a lot of people to these meetings.

So, that took place--

the separation of the alliance from the Gay Liberation Front--

as I mentioned, in the summer of 1973, and--

KEVIN INDOVINO: I'm going to stop you here for a second.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So you were with the Gay Liberation Front,

again, just before they split?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes, in the fall of 1972

and spring of 1973, so just the last year.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yes, OK, let me start there.

I was just trying to clarify that in my own mind.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You personally started with the group

on campus, but then you eventually wound up

at the Gay Alliance off-campus.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes.

Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's talk about the GLF on campus

before they split off.

Talk to me about the GLF.

What was it like going to those meetings on campus?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Well, they were on Sunday evenings,

and it was an interesting feeling

to pull up to the campus, park your car outside Todd

Union there, and it felt a little

like you were doing something clandestine, and a little bit

of excitement, though, about being

around other gay people who were actually coming together

for political purposes, to a large extent.

Anyway, going to a meeting--

the group was very unstructured.

Tried to stay away from hierarchies, which I think

was part of the times for political movements.

And there were consciousness raising groups.

It was a real eye-opener for me.

So many people, such a diverse group,

very articulate about being out with your parents,

talking about being out with your parents.

Basically, it was being upfront about being gay, coming out

about being gay, and those are my memories of it.

Organizing social events, gay dances on campus--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's backtrack just a little bit.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember your first meeting?

Remember the first time that you decided, oh, I'm

going to go check this out?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: I don't remember that first meeting.

Yeah.

I do remember some of my impressions of some

of the early meetings were--

that it was really refreshing to be around people

who were so positive and so articulate about being out,

and so sensitive too about all the issues of being

out, and the political consciousness.

There was a pretty active political action committee,

and I was very impressed with the work they were doing.

And they were very up front in approaching local politicians,

surveying them about their attitudes

toward the gay community, and, for that matter,

organizing protests, organizing going to the gay pride

march in New York City, having a good representative group

there from the gay community here.

And just-- out and proud attitude--

one of being so supportive of the gay community

and so supportive of people who are trying to come out.

Organizing groups for people who were just coming out, trying

to deal with that issue.

Consciousness raising groups that

were a very popular item at the time.

But just the broad range of topics and very upfront

attitudes, I think, about it all were really refreshing to me

and really drew me-- particularly

the political action part, and particularly the part

about being proud of being gay.

I mean, there was nothing to hide.

Nothing to be ashamed-- and I really

liked the upfront attitude that these folks had.

KEVIN INDOVINO: In hindsight, looking back at it now

with today's eyes, from your point of view,

how do you think it was so significant, so important,

to have a group like that in a city like Rochester,

a small, little city like Rochester, in the early 1970s?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: I'm not sure I have a good answer for you

on that one, Kevin.

To me, as I look in retrospect, it

seems like it was not surprising at all for Rochester.

I mean, when you look back to the activities

of Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony, even Emma Goldman--

really radical politics there--

and later, even with the founder of Xerox,

and in a way, some of his radical political thinking

at the time in support of the African-American community,

it seems to me to fit and not be surprising

that Rochester would have an educated, politically

active group of people come to the fore

on the issue of gay politics.

Well, significant in the sense that as you look down the road,

we've had a lot--

it was very significant that this group

formed to really get the issue of the gay community

in the forefront of politics, and to this day, I mean,

that's one of the reasons we--

when I went to the Empire State Pride Agenda Dinner--

huge, huge group of people at the Riverside Convention

Center--

Rochester has been one of the most politically powerful

groups in the state to be involved with the Empire Pride

Agenda, and very active.

I mean, when you think back about it,

it was actually this group starting--

this little group of people at the Gay Liberation Front--

starting what ended up to eventually

be a huge group of people and base of support

in the Rochester area for marriage equality

and for gay nondiscrimination acts involving employment.

And you can see a clear pattern there,

and one that lasted throughout the years,

when in other cities like New York City, sometimes

there was just chaos, organizations falling apart.

So you can see the seed of that growing into something really

large today (pause) in Rochester.

CREW: OK, we'll take about a two minute break.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That came at actually the right time.

(pause in recording)

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: You know, she was a real activist,

and she was involved from the early days.

She'll remember so much about the University of Rochester Gay

Liberation Front that I have forgotten,

that I don't remember.

And I was thinking about how people

like her, starting out at the Gay Liberation Front,

moved into--

I mean, that led to then Karen, with some other women,

forming the New Women's Times eventually.

It's interesting how, as you were pointing out,

the seeds of something starting and what

that grows into over the years.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me, if you can--

we've touched about it a little bit already,

but, as concisely as you can-- because it's a long story--

but, can you walk me through the GLF

having to break off from the U of R campus

and ultimately becoming the Gay Alliance?

I know there was a whole lot of different things

that happen between those two points,

but talk to me again about why the GLF was asked--

or why the group was asked to leave the campus,

but they still have a student group there,

and where did you guys go, and, ultimately,

where did you guys end up?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Well, let's see.

My understanding was that members of the student

government at the University of Rochester,

primarily out of homophobia, are told

the University of Rochester Gay Liberation

Front and the students that were involved with it that they were

going to cut off money to the Gay Liberation Front coming

from student activity fees, because there were too

few students and it was mostly people

from outside the University of Rochester coming to meetings

and involved with Gay Liberation Front activities.

So that's when some of the folks,

like Whitey LeBlanc, and Bob Crystal, Tim Mains,

a number of us--

decided that we should form our own community group.

And that was in the summer, and we came up

with the name of Gay Alliance.

There was a business owner who offered us

part of his business in the Bull's Head area--

our business space-- in the back of it, part of which--

the building actually had been burned out at one time, so--

but still, it was a place to meet for free.

Money was very hard to come by at the time,

and so in the summer, we moved to Brown Street

in the Bull's Head area of the city,

and we continued to have Sunday evening meetings.

We continued the Speakers Bureau.

The Gay Alliance took with it the Empty Closet newspaper,

and that was very important because the Empty Closet's

always been very important to the gay movement here

and to the gay organization and to the Gay Alliance.

So we continued there for a while.

There was no heat at the time, so it got to be very difficult.

I'm so sorry about the phone.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It's OK.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Let me--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you want to turn it off

and then we'll just pick it up from where you left off there.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah.

Alright.

Let's see-- maybe I should put it in there with my--

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, you can put it on the table.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: OK.

So--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's pick it up to the building with no heat.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: The building with no heat.

Yes.

So our first Gay Alliance facility

there had no heat, so that encouraged us to find a space,

and find a space we did over at the Genesee Co-op

on Monroe Avenue.

And there were what we would call alternative groups there

at the time.

Most of the folks involved with that were

open to having a gay group--

a gay, political-oriented group, although technically just

a portion of the organization was politically involved,

but having us in the building, and--

though there were some people who were uncomfortable with

that in the administration of the co-op--

but they provided us with a nice space there.

So it was nice to move there, and the Empty Closet was still

being edited outside of the premises of the Gay Alliance

at volunteer homes, but the co-op provided a nice place.

I think that's how the gay community was viewed--

the gay political movement--

at the time-- as an alternative group.

An alternative lifestyle, if you will.

And it sort of fit with some of the politics and attitudes

of things going on at the co-op, and I

think the people at the co-op were

seen as a more liberal, open-minded group,

so we moved into space there.

And then, I think, the gender gap became greater and greater,

and I think the lesbians involved in the group

felt like there was more concern for them with feminist issues,

and they decided to break off and form their own group.

And I'm really starting to falter here.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK, because I'm

going to tell you exactly where you can pick it up.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because we have other people talking

about the split of the women and the men and coming together

and all that.

So let's pick it up to where the Gay Alliance became

an umbrella organization--

the women were under it, the men were under it,

some other different groups were under it.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah, that was a little later.

A couple of years into it.

KEVIN INDOVINO: With the formation of the Gay Alliance,

I want to talk about, what were some of the early changes

that you guys were facing as now an umbrella organization,

or in those early years of the formation of the Gay

Alliance, what were some of the challenges-- some

of the community reaction that you were faced with?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Community reaction and our challenges

there.

To me, the biggest challenge the entire time for the Gay

Alliance was always survival--

having enough money to pay the phone bill

so that we could continue to provide counseling

support over the phone to people who are trying to come out,

and staff our office, and have a place to meet,

and continue to be able to print the Empty Closet newspaper--

so survival was the biggest issue that we had to overcome.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you tell me--

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Providing a space--

sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because in a pre-interview,

you talked about some things like getting some threats

from state legislators who were trying to shut you down.

You actually had some death threats or bomb threats.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Oh yeah.

Well, we decided to incorporate the alliance

as a not-for-profit corporation, and once the news

got out to some of the

state legislators--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought for a second.

CREW: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Wait for that train to go by.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Wait for that beeping truck.

(pause in recording)

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, let's pick it up from when the

GAGV was incorporated, and some of the challenges

that you had to deal with that.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah.

CREW: If we could pause--

this truck is still backing up.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Isn't that train by us by now?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: We're pretty near the tracks, aren't we?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.

OK.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes, I--

KEVIN INDOVINO: They're determined

not to let you talk--

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Somebody's doing something

with backing up.

CREW: OK, give it a go.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright, let's try it again.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: OK.

I was a bit surprised at the reaction

we got after we incorporated.

Once we incorporated at the state level, then there--

CREW: Sorry, it's just--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Are you backing all the up Main Street or what?

CREW: It's just so--

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Oh, are we across the street

from a lumber?

That used to be a lumber facility over there.

CREW: I think we're more across the street

from what used to be Corpus Christi.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Oh, alright.

Something's going on with equipment over there, right?

That they're backing up--

KEVIN INDOVINO: We're probably in a construction

zone or something.

We're just going to have to deal with it.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah, I was surprised

at the vehemence we received from some of the state

legislators.

One in particular had said publicly

he was going to do everything he could

to see to it that our incorporation was revoked

at the state level.

There was just generally a reaction

among the anti-gay element politically of shock

that we were allowed to incorporate at the state level.

I think even we were surprised, to tell you the truth,

and a little nervous about it, but thought

it was an important step.

It was a big step forward for us,

to become a not-for-profit 501 (3)(c) corporation.

So that was a big hurdle for us to cross there,

although I'm not sure we realized how big at the time.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But at the time, you also

started to learn how to work with the media

and work with the press.

As you'd stated once, even bad publicity

was good publicity because it got your name out there.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Exactly.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me a little bit about that.

Talk to me about becoming more visible in the community.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah.

Well, one of the things that I felt the best about in my work

with the Gay Alliance was trying to see to it that we

had more media visibility, and even forming a media committee

within the Gay Alliance.

Those of us who got together to think of press

releases we could send out, how to do a press release,

and just getting our name out there all the time,

and, of course, there were plenty of opportunities

with negative reactions from people on gay issues

locally that we could then issue press releases

and get our name out there.

And yeah, we knew that if there was going

to be any change in the community,

and how people saw gay people, and attitudes

towards the gay community, negative publicity was

very important, because it kept us out there,

and gave us an opportunity to contradict and make

a case for the gay community, and also it

kept us from just being kept in our place through silence,

through being an invisible silent minority out there.

So we were delighted when people in the community like Michael

Macaluso, a very anti-gay Catholic in the community,

would rear up his head and comment

on some issue involving us.

There were plenty of issues, actually, that came up then.

I'm thinking of Anita Bryant and her anti-gay comments,

the orange juice boycott when Anita Bryant was

the spokesperson for the orange juice industry,

so there were plenty of opportunities to get

some good press out there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch on something that you just

mentioned about how silence was your biggest

foe, about remaining silent was not helping your cause at all.

Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Well, if you don't have an opportunity

to counter the stereotypes of the gay community

and you don't have an opportunity

to present yourselves visibly so people can see,

gee, gay men, gay women--

they're just like us, now aren't they?

That we're not so different, that we don't all

fit the stereotype that the public seem

to have of gay people, that we were good people.

And I think also, this attitude of there

were not any gay people out there in the community,

or I don't know any gay people in the community,

and just being silent contributed

to that, that sense of, well, there

aren't any gay people that I know of in our area,

or in my legislative district, or--

KEVIN INDOVINO: So at one point you

became president of the Gay Alliance.

Talk to me a little bit about that,

being president of the Gay Alliance.

What was the state of the Gay Alliance at that time,

and what were, maybe, some of the challenges

or concerns that you had to address during your tenure

as the president?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: I always--

one of the first things that comes to the fore

is the same thing for all volunteer organizations,

and that is struggling financially and finding ways

to bring enough money into the organization

to pay the rent every month and pay the phone bill, because it

was extremely important for us to continue to exist,

and be there for the gay community,

and have a visible presence, and break the silence.

And I think reaching out to the media

was a big challenge for us then too.

How could we get our names out there?

And a big challenge at the time too was political action.

How can we get some anti-gay legislation passed?

How can Rochester be a part of that--

Rochester's gay community-- in working with the rest

of the state to try and get some anti-discrimination laws

passed--

get it passed at the city council level,

get domestic partner registration

at the Rochester city level, so some political activities

there.

And then just trying to keep peer

counseling, as we called it, going in the gay community.

It took a lot of volunteers to staff the offices,

for folks to be trained, and how to be supportive, be good peer

counselors with folks that needed that--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me touch on that a little bit,

because I don't want to just briefly pass by that.

With the peer counseling programs

at the Gay Alliance center--

what were you seeing?

What were you recognizing as the need in our community

for some sort of peer counseling programs for people?

What were people coming to you for, basically?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Well, basically

for coming out, and being terrified about.

Having somebody just even to talk

to about being gay, because perhaps they

had no one that they could talk to openly about that,

just exploring their beginning awareness that maybe they

have feelings for people of the same gender,

and/or perhaps bisexual feelings.

And then there were some folks in the transgender community

too who needed some support, and talking to them over the phone

was sometimes a first step, and then encouraging them to stop

by the Gay Alliance-- we had a small library there,

we had places to sit, have some coffee,

and you could chat with a peer counselor--

then you could also come to our Sunday night meetings,

so peer counselors would encourage folks

to-- if they were comfortable with it,

a big first step for these folks might be coming to a Gay

Alliance Sunday night meeting, and so

peer counseling sort of opened the door with that telephone

call to all of that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: To kind of wrap that up,

why did you feel it was so important that the Gay Alliance

had that kind of program?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Basically because I

think the most radical thing any one person could

do with the public to help change attitudes

and to help themselves was come out.

Come out of the closet and be comfortable with who

they are, and acknowledge who they are,

and talk to them about ways that they

could talk to their parents about the fact

that they're gay.

Coming out with their parents and how

to do that, and supportive books they

could read about coming out and the gay community.

But just basically, just to me, nothing more radical

could happen than for people to be

comfortable with their own identity, come

to realize that they were, in fact, perhaps gay or bisexual,

and then being open with that, being out in the community.

So that was just vital.

KEVIN INDOVINO: But the Gay Alliance

saw it within the mission to be able to help people do that,

right?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Absolutely, yeah.

To offer support to people who were dealing

with their sexual preference.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You were with the alliance

with the whole CETA funding issue?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes, Comprehensive Employment

and Training Act.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me a little bit about that.

What was that all about?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: John Noble, who

had helped us form a little subcommittee we called

the Rochester Gay Task Force, said

he saw an opportunity for us to get some funding

to have a full-time person, or perhaps two,

or perhaps even three.

The Gay Alliance could do some employment training

with these folks in supporting our counseling program,

in supporting the Empty Closet newspaper,

training them in newspaper production,

and he felt that we would qualify

for this federal program--

the Comprehensive Employment Training Act.

It was being administered at the time by the Red Cross.

Now--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Red Cross or United Way?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: I'm sorry, not the Red Cross.

United--

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's take it back and just

give that to me again.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yep.

The Comprehensive Employment Training Act

was being administered at the time

by the United Way of Rochester.

And so we applied, and we did in fact qualify, because John

wrote an excellent application that met all the criteria,

so there was no legal way they could turn us down,

really, since we did meet those qualifications,

and once word got out to the public

from the United Way of who had been funded,

what projects for the Comprehensive Employment

Training Act, or CETA, as you called it,

and that the Gay Alliance was one of the recipients,

it was the biggest media event in my activities

in the five or six years I worked with the gay community

here and the Gay Alliance that could happen here.

I mean, it was an explosion.

And it caused so much controversy for the United Way,

they came under so much pressure,

there was so much anti-gay sentiment out in the community

then, that people said, "Well I'm

not getting any money to the United Way

because they're giving money to the Gay Alliance."

Well, it wasn't the United Way's money

going for the Gay Alliance.

All they were doing was acting as an administrative agent.

They were being paid by the federal government

to administer the Comprehensive Employment Training Act.

So we were in the media constantly with this.

It went before the Rochester City Council,

they were involved, it was a controversy there.

And this was just excellent publicity for us.

It really gave us a lot of media visibility,

which was very important, and--

well, I just lost my thread here.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.

Actually, we got enough.

So to wrap things up here a little bit,

I'm just going to throw some names out to you,

and I just want you to give me just

your brief impressions or your brief experiences

with these people and how important they were,

how these people are people who have shoulders

that we have stood on.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So the first person

that you've already mentioned is John Noble, his contributions

to the gay community.

Talk to me-- what was John like, who was he,

what did he contribute?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: John was a very articulate person who

was very active in local democratic politics,

and politics actually in general in the community,

but particularly in the Democratic Committee of Monroe

County, and he saw the clear advantage

to having us get out there and get involved more in politics

in the local arena.

So he was one of the people who helped

us start surveying candidates running

for political office, which, in my eyes,

got to be a really big deal.

Thanks to John organizing the surveys

and sending them out to all the candidates

on where they stood on issues important to the gay community,

then the results of that would be

published in the Empty Closet at election time so that people--

and there were thousands of people in the gay community who

read the Empty Closet--

could know where their local representatives--

or representative wannabes-- stood on gay issues.

So that was really important.

He knew how to apply for grant funding

and how to meet the letter of the law for things

like the Comprehensive Employment Training Act.

These are things that we would never have done without John.

KEVIN INDOVINO: How about Patti Evans?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Patti Evans was just

a stalwart when it came to political action

and being committed out there in the community,

so I really looked to her as a role model

in terms of being involved in politics.

She was relentless in her own quiet way

of making sure that we were involved with the labor

community here.

She was comfortable interacting with the head of the labor

unions here at the time, who was very

receptive to the gay community.

She would, on her own volition, for example--

let me give you a good example here.

The police department here, some of the undercover agents were

going into the parks-- the public parks and doing what we

viewed as enticement--

enticing men who came to the parks

to look for hookups with other men,

to entice them into some type of sexual encounter or approach

to a sexual encounter and then arresting them.

And, of course, that was made public.

It literally ruined people's lives at the time.

Well, Patti got wind of it ahead of time,

that the police were going to be going

to the park on a particular day.

She'd whip up a flyer and go to the park,

and any men she saw around, she'd just

hand them this flyer saying, "The police are here today.

Be careful."

That was a big deal.

I very impressed that she would do that,

and that was a big political act of bravery,

as far as I was concerned, and really commitment.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Which also then led to some involvment

on your part, especially Patti's, with Gordon Urlacher.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to about Gordon

and some of the experiences that you've had with him.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Chief of Police at the time,

and I was very surprised that the Chief of Police

in Rochester would want to meet with me,

and that was because of my position with the Gay Alliance

at the time.

But I had gotten word ahead of time

that he was friendly to the gay community, not an antagonist,

and that there was a Times Union reporter who

wanted to interview him about the arrests of men

in the parks.

And so Gordon Urlacher had this Times Union reporter

come, and made sure that I was there, and in the interview,

while the reporter was interviewing me

about the arrests that were going on in the parks,

Chief Urlacher would hand me a little note with responses

I could give to the reporter.

Like, the reporter would ask, "Why is this activity going on

in the parks?"

And Chief Urlacher would hand me a note saying, "Well it

wouldn't happen if society were more open to the gay community.

This kind of secretive activity wouldn't

occur in the first place."

And I was just stunned by his openness.

And later, in talking with him privately,

realized that he had had a gay friend in college,

and so it was no big deal to him that there

were gay people out there.

KEVIN INDOVINO: You mentioned her before-- is she here yet?

Nope?

OK.

Karen Hagberg.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Karen was another very, very upfront,

very bright person politically, and very energized, very

organized, very articulate, was a good writer, and a leader,

a person who exuded leadership qualities,

so I always admired Karen.

She was another good role model for me--

John Noble, Patti Evans, Karen--

because of her activist mentality at the time.

And she did a lot of consciousness

raising for me on lots of gay issues, feminist issues, so--

KEVIN INDOVINO: Tim Mains.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Tim was so important for the Gay Alliance

in his helping us with the organization itself,

and writing our first constitution,

and working on the Empty Closet--

he edited the Empty Closet for a while--

and then when he decided to run for City Council,

he was one of the first people in the state,

one of the early few to be out as a gay person

and run for political office when he ran for City Council.

And I thought that was-- we all thought that was a very

brave thing to do at the time.

That was just unheard of for a person

to be open about being gay and then

being elected to public office.

I think people might not realize that, although still

seems to me today that's still an issue.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Now you remember a little incident

with Tim one night at the Bachelor Forum in the parking

lot.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me about that.

Tell me that story.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: Well, we had been

having a meeting, a group of us, at the Bachelor Forum,

and we were leaving the meeting, and we

were going through the parking lot outside the Bachelor Forum,

and word apparently was out-- we were aware

that there were undercover agents who were writing down

license plate numbers of the cars around the Bachelor Forum

and that this was an activity that

in fact had been going on for a while in the Rochester

gay community.

And Tim had a confrontation with the undercover agent who--

somehow it was--

I can't remember if Tim approached him or the officer

approached him, but Tim was openly defiant with him

about why are you doing this, and there

was an angry exchange between the two

of them, and the person that was with me--

we were both like, OK Tim.

You're going to get arrested here.

Let's back off here.

But Tim was very confrontational with him

and wasn't going to back down with this undercover agent who

was doing this.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Just a couple quick wrap-up questions here.

Looking back at everything that you

were involved with with the Gay Alliance and other activities

in the gay community, what are you most proud of?

MICHAEL ROBERTSON: I thought about that long and hard

on the way over here for this interview.

I guess the thing I'm the proudest

of is that I helped the Gay Alliance continue

to exist at a time when there were not a lot of people

and not much money for the organization.

I helped the Gay Alliance to continue to exist.

I mean, I thought that was extremely important

that the Gay Alliance continue on.

So just by volunteering my time, I

felt like I was a cog in the wheel that

let the alliance continue to exist,

and that's something I felt really good about.

And I think the other thing I felt