Video Interview, Pamela Barres, June 6, 2012

  • PAMELA BARRES: So do you work for XXI, Brian?
  • BRIAN: No.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: He used to.
  • BRIAN: I used to.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I actually used to be
  • his boss for a very short time.
  • BRIAN: Yes, he was.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: And that was fun, wasn't it, Brian?
  • BRIAN: That was a delight.
  • Every day was like Christmas.
  • PAMELA BARRES: Oh, yeah.
  • I'm sure.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Pam, just for a microphone check,
  • can you give us the correct spelling
  • of your first and last name and how you want
  • to be identified on screen?
  • PAMELA BARRES: Pamela Barres, Pamela, P-A-M-E-L-A. Barres,
  • B-A-R-R-E-S. So it's like, you know, if you're going to a bar,
  • you go to another bar.
  • You go to bars.
  • BRIAN: Bars.
  • OK.
  • PAMELA BARRES: Candy bars.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start at the beginning
  • of your transition.
  • When you first started thinking about this for yourself,
  • this personal decision that you had to make,
  • tell me about that story.
  • But then also move it into where were you finding information
  • here in Rochester about it?
  • PAMELA BARRES: OK.
  • My transition from male to female
  • is not that something that happened at one moment.
  • I think for all people really it's a journey.
  • It's not a moment in time.
  • There may be a moment in time when you tell the first person.
  • But it may be a long, long time before you
  • move beyond that first person.
  • I knew that I was different really
  • as far back as I can remember.
  • And I don't know the exact age, but it was certainly
  • I think before I started kindergarten even and maybe
  • further back than that.
  • But I didn't really know what it was.
  • I knew that I wanted to wear the little party
  • dresses to birthday parties that some of my girl cousins wore
  • and the nice black Mary Jane patent leather shoes.
  • But I was told I couldn't do that.
  • And so, you know, you kind of go along.
  • But it never went away.
  • And I know I also learned very early on this
  • was not something that you should tell anybody else,
  • because it didn't get good results.
  • I mean, I wasn't beat up or anything by my parents.
  • But it just wasn't a thing you did.
  • I'm little boy.
  • That's what you are.
  • And this is what you wear.
  • And this is what you do.
  • So I basically built a wall around myself.
  • And I kind of moved into a little shell.
  • And I got along pretty good.
  • I did all the boys things I was supposed to do.
  • And I was in a lot of fights.
  • I was the smallest kid in school at the time
  • and joined the Boy Scouts and, you know, got my merit badges
  • and worked at a scout camp.
  • But secretly, often, I would wear women's clothing,
  • little pieces of underwear-- not little pieces of underwear,
  • I was bigger than that--
  • under my male clothing.
  • Because underneath, I could feel that I really
  • was this woman, this girl.
  • Even though the outside world didn't see it,
  • it made me feel more feminine, I guess,
  • more like it seemed right.
  • It seemed very right.
  • And I actually worked at a scout camp.
  • And I would shoplift from in Tupper Lake from an Eisner's
  • a pair of panties.
  • And I'm not proud of shoplifting, but I did.
  • I was too embarrassed to buy--
  • and a bra.
  • And I would go up in the woods on my day
  • off and put these clothes on and put my clothes back on over it.
  • And I'd sit under a tree and read.
  • And it was not every day, not every day off, but some.
  • So that kind of stuff kind of progressed.
  • And eventually, my parents found my secret stash of clothes
  • one time, my mother did.
  • And we used to play chess together, my father and I.
  • We never played chess for like twenty years after that night.
  • And at the time, I was very serious with the person
  • that became my wife.
  • And they made me promise that I had to tell her.
  • So I got drugged up pretty good.
  • And I got her a little drunk.
  • And I told her.
  • And she was pretty brave about the whole thing.
  • And she wasn't sure.
  • I didn't know.
  • There was no information.
  • This was in the early sixties.
  • There was no information.
  • I used to go to the--
  • I don't even know how I got some of the name--
  • initial words, I guess.
  • But I'd go to the library and look under transportation.
  • Because I could find trans--
  • transvestite.
  • Transsexual wasn't even really coined very much at that point.
  • Looking for information in books,
  • it was generally bad stuff and abnormal psychology.
  • And it didn't make you feel like this
  • is something you really wanted to be to be honest with you.
  • But Sue decided, let's see what happens.
  • She was, as I said, pretty brave.
  • And we experimented with me cross-dressing a little bit.
  • But I looked like a proverbial truck driver in drag.
  • And she laughed at me.
  • And I didn't like being laughed at.
  • So I just kind of suppressed it.
  • And I was going to school.
  • She was working.
  • So I'd come home sometimes, and I
  • could do a few little things being dressed up.
  • And it made me feel good.
  • But I basically just put it tried to suppress it,
  • put it in the background and spent a lot of time drinking.
  • That was my release.
  • And I got a job with Kodak in New York City,
  • a lot of sales jobs.
  • And we'd party and had a good time.
  • And I was abusing alcohol for a lot
  • of years, predominately beer, but other liquor as well.
  • And I started having all kinds of stomach problems.
  • Eventually, I saw a psychiatrist.
  • Because they couldn't find anything really physically
  • wrong with me.
  • And I told him that I thought maybe I wanted to be a woman.
  • And his advice was don't ever do that.
  • Suppress it.
  • It's great being a guy.
  • And so I did.
  • And it ended up, I had a daughter.
  • I had another daughter.
  • I got a job with Kodak back in Rochester
  • traveling internationally--
  • great job, but it was stressful, traveled all around the world.
  • But when you're out five weeks, four weeks at a time,
  • away from home, it's stressful.
  • And this was I bought a night gown in South Africa.
  • I had it gift wrapped.
  • And I would carefully every time I'd get there,
  • I'd open the gift wrapping carefully.
  • And I'd wear it at night.
  • And I'd fold it back up, and put it back in a gift
  • wrapped package, tape it back up again, put it in my suitcase.
  • Figured if I went through customs, it's always--
  • I mean, I was paranoid, if anybody found out,
  • my world would dissolve, that no one would love me.
  • I'd lose everything I got.
  • And I would have to kill myself or something.
  • So I was very, very afraid.
  • And now, when I realized I'm being videotaped here, I get up
  • and make talks at colleges, it's like where
  • did this person come from?
  • How did I get here?
  • And so eventually, it was a series of telling more people.
  • And in 1988, I'd been seeing a psychiatrist again
  • who told me to do nothing about this at all,
  • and we'd get cured.
  • Well, we weren't being cured.
  • It was getting worse and worse and worse.
  • I was in my middle forties.
  • I shaved off my mustache for my forty-fifth anniversary
  • because women did not wear--
  • forty-fifth birthday I should say.
  • Women don't have mustaches.
  • Well, some do.
  • But I didn't want to be one that did.
  • I am Italian descent, but anyway.
  • That probably should not be in the thing.
  • And then a couple of months later, my cousin who was
  • like a brother to me--
  • I was an only child-- died unexpectedly
  • on the way to work one morning, dropped over, heart attack.
  • I went home from his funeral and called the Medical Society
  • here in Rochester, Monroe County,
  • and got a name of a therapist that knew something
  • about this subject, transsexualism or transvestism.
  • I thought I was a transsexual.
  • But I didn't know really what it meant exactly.
  • And so I saw this person.
  • She was very helpful.
  • What she did for me was to make me
  • realize I had nothing to be ashamed of.
  • This is who I am.
  • And the question is, how do I live comfortably
  • and deal with my life and be the best person I can
  • be and be as happy as I can be?
  • And I did not want to lose my marriage.
  • At that time, I'd probably been married about forty--
  • excuse me, twenty-five years, when this was all
  • coming to a head between twenty-two, twenty-three,
  • twenty-four, twenty-five years.
  • And actually, my twenty-fifth wedding anniversary,
  • I was convinced that I probably wouldn't have another one,
  • that we would fall apart.
  • But we didn't.
  • And we'll be celebrating our forty-eighth wedding
  • anniversary in October.
  • So it's been a journey.
  • It's been a lot of compromise.
  • Things are not perfect.
  • But I don't know anyone that's really perfect
  • and is always a 100 percent happy all the time.
  • But I'm as close as I can get.
  • I couldn't be happier that I did this.
  • If I could take a pill and say, well, it would go away,
  • I wouldn't do it.
  • Because I've transitioned, I've met wonderful people.
  • I've had great experiences.
  • I got myself involved with the GLBT community
  • here in Rochester and to some degree on a statewide level.
  • And these are experiences I wouldn't
  • have had any other way.
  • So I'm much happier with myself.
  • And my life hasn't fallen apart.
  • My marriage hasn't fallen apart.
  • I have two great daughters that are supportive.
  • So things are good.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Before we get into some of your activism--
  • PAMELA BARRES: Is that too bad?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, it's fine.
  • PAMELA BARRES: It's OK?
  • OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: There's pieces in there
  • I've already gotten in my head.
  • But one thing came up as you were talking
  • that I just wrote down here.
  • And I just want your opinion on this.
  • Is that stereotype from the heterosexual community
  • that gay men all want to be women, really--
  • and that can't be farther from the truth.
  • PAMELA BARRES: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, what is your opinion on that?
  • How do you respond to that stereotype?
  • PAMELA BARRES: Do you want me to answer the question?
  • Do you want me to set up the question?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Set up the question, yeah.
  • PAMELA BARRES: OK.
  • How do I set up the question?
  • First of all, when I was going through this process of trying
  • to figure out what was going on with me,
  • what was wrong with me, one of the things I wondered about
  • was, was I gay?
  • Did I really want to have sex with men?
  • And at the time, I didn't.
  • It didn't seem it just didn't seem right to me somehow.
  • Not morally, it just wasn't something
  • I was really interested in.
  • And I tried to put myself in positions
  • periodically to see if somebody picked me up, and no one did.
  • That was a little disappointing maybe.
  • But anyway-- and this idea is that, well, gay men want
  • to be women, or if you want to be a woman,
  • you must be a gay man.
  • And nothing could be further from the truth.
  • Because first of all, being transgender
  • is about your gender identity.
  • It's not so much who you want to have sex,
  • who you want to go to bed with.
  • It's how you feel internally.
  • And if you're a transsexual, you would
  • identify as a different gender than what people told you
  • you were when you were born.
  • If you're a transvestite, you know what your sex is,
  • but you have this urge that you have to present yourself
  • periodically and in another mode to feel comfortable
  • and relaxed.
  • And there may even be some kind of a sexual fetish
  • to some degree at least initially maybe
  • in that motivation.
  • But gay men don't want to be women.
  • Gay men like men.
  • The thing that women don't have is a penis.
  • Most gay men are attracted to their penises.
  • Most transsexual women don't want to have a penis.
  • And that's not something that they're
  • interested in depending on their sexual orientation.
  • Because the other thing that people get confused about
  • is gender identity and sexual orientation, thinking they're
  • one and the same, that all trans women
  • want to have sex with men.
  • There's lots of trans women that identify as lesbian or bi.
  • And I identify myself as primarily interested in women.
  • Though, I have discovered I probably
  • have some bi interest as well, though I'm not acting on it.
  • Because I'm in a monogamous relationship.
  • But someplace along the line, I think I gave myself permission
  • to look at men differently than I did when I was much younger.
  • So I don't know where this idea--
  • I think in our society, we're so focused on binary.
  • You have to be this or that.
  • And we ignore all the shades of gray.
  • And one of the beauties I have found out
  • is that there's just all kinds of different shadings of gray
  • between maybe the two black and white extremes.
  • And I guess I've always lived my life and looked at it that way.
  • I'm not big on absolutes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I just want to touch a little bit more
  • on maybe the frustration that you
  • had in the lack of information back
  • in those days, you know, at the library,
  • not being able to have access to--
  • PAMELA BARRES: Right, OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --resources that could
  • help you come to terms with what you were feeling at the time.
  • PAMELA BARRES: One of the things that
  • was a problem when you know you're different,
  • and you're going through trying to figure out
  • why you're different and what to do about it,
  • is getting information that's somewhat factual
  • and that you can relate to.
  • And I was lucky enough through my therapist
  • to be introduced to some other people
  • that she was working with who were also trans people.
  • And she also put me in touch with some books
  • that she suggested I read.
  • Conundrum was one of the first books
  • that she suggested that I take a look at.
  • And through some of the friends I met,
  • I got involved with a local support group
  • here in Rochester at the time.
  • It was called the Transvestites Anonymous,
  • which with a name like that was not too anonymous when
  • you went up to get the mail from the post office box.
  • But anyway, first, they had gone out of existence.
  • But they reformed about six, seven months after I
  • started seeing my therapist.
  • And at the first meeting, we changed our name
  • to the CD Network, which was a lot more secretive, I guess,
  • than Transvestites Anonymous.
  • And that was the only group in town.
  • But through that, I got information
  • about an organization called the IFGE, International Foundation
  • for Gender Education.
  • And they had conferences.
  • Luckily, I had enough money and my job
  • was good enough that allowed me to go
  • to a couple of these conferences and to get and subscribe
  • to their magazine, which was called the Transgender
  • Tapestry.
  • And so I got lots of good information there.
  • And then I met people all around the country, doctors,
  • psychologists, lawyers, ministers, policemen,
  • that were like me, or somewhat like me.
  • We're all slightly different, but there's
  • a lot of commonality.
  • And so that's how I got most of my information.
  • That was before the internet really.
  • And today, there's such a wealth of information out there.
  • And it's on television shows.
  • And it's talked about.
  • I mean, when it used to be on one of these talk shows,
  • the word would pass around.
  • Everybody had to tune on their television
  • that particular afternoon to watch the Sally Jesse Raphael
  • Show or whatever it was, even Jerry Springer sometimes,
  • which I detest the Jerry Springer Show.
  • But that's beside the point.
  • But so it was difficult. Today, there's
  • maybe almost too much information out there.
  • Because you don't know what's the good information
  • and what's the bad information.
  • And like any minority group, we have
  • people that write these long essays about how many angels
  • can dance on the head of a pin.
  • What's the proper term for us?
  • Who's included?
  • Who's not included?
  • And unfortunately, I think that's not only
  • the case in the trans part of the community,
  • but it's also the case in the GLBT community.
  • Sometimes you spend more time fighting among ourselves
  • as to which one of these little organizations is better.
  • And we forget the big enemy out there.
  • And we need to continue to band together, to be united,
  • to get equal rights for all people,
  • not just my little group versus your little group.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: It's interesting that you bring that up.
  • Because, you know, there is so much talk about--
  • as you mentioned, transgender issues
  • isn't really a gay issue.
  • It's an identity issue.
  • But yet, the transgender community
  • has become so aligned with the gay and lesbian community
  • as part of the overall gay rights movement.
  • Why do you think that happened?
  • PAMELA BARRES: One of the things that I
  • had to fight when I first came out
  • was being part of the gay community
  • and using that term in its broadest sense.
  • And a lot of people, including my therapist,
  • who turns out to be lesbian, said "you're not really gay.
  • You're not part of this community.
  • This is about gender."
  • But the thing is, you know, that trans people have always
  • been part of the gay community going back
  • to the beginning of time, probably before words
  • were coined, like homosexual or transvestite or whatever,
  • or transsexual certainly.
  • And there's probably nothing more gender variant
  • to overall society than two men wanting
  • to be intimate with each other or two women wanting
  • to be intimate with each other.
  • I mean, to the straight society today,
  • that's gender variant big time.
  • A lot of women are much more masculine.
  • A lot of men are much more feminine.
  • Does that mean they cross-dress, and they want to be the other?
  • No.
  • But they express their gender different.
  • And the thing that people hate, the thing
  • that people know about us, is our expression.
  • So if you're a very butch woman or a very effeminate man,
  • you're going to be picked on.
  • Because they don't really know who you're sleeping with
  • or care.
  • But you're crossing those gender stereotypes.
  • So I had a friend, David Kosel.
  • And David, while he was always very nice to me
  • and very supportive to me, we used
  • to have long arguments about why does trans people have to march
  • in the gay pride parade.
  • Because it's not about sex.
  • Well, the other thing is that I kept
  • reminding David that for a lot of trans people,
  • it is about sex.
  • Because they want to have sex with the same people
  • that they identify with, the same
  • gender that they identify with.
  • Does that make them gay?
  • Or does that make them straight?
  • Were they gay before they had an operation,
  • or were they straight after they had the operation?
  • So it's a very confusing thing.
  • And we've always been a part of it.
  • Part of it, I think, the reason that
  • in the fifties and the sixties maybe, there was this--
  • we have to assimilate.
  • We want the same rights.
  • Certainly, after Stonewall in '69,
  • it was how do we get the straight people to allow us
  • into their club?
  • And so we'll get rid of these people
  • that don't seem to fit the stereotype of being straight.
  • So the leather men with the chaps and the flamboyant drag
  • queens started less and less showing up
  • in gay pride parades.
  • Because that was the image that they didn't want to show,
  • because that would further separate us
  • from what we wanted, which was to be into the club.
  • And now unfortunately, a lot of people are in the club.
  • But there's still a few of us outside,
  • like transgender people, particularly
  • in New York State who do not have
  • equal rights, who have no nondiscrimination
  • rights protecting them.
  • And we're having a tough time getting back in.
  • We supported marriage equality.
  • We supported hate crimes.
  • We supported SONDA.
  • And yet, gender expression and identity
  • is not explicitly mentioned in any of those bills.
  • And we have no explicit protections.
  • Things are improving.
  • But I would hope by the time that people actually
  • view this documentary, that the GENDA bill,
  • the Gender Expression Nondiscrimination Act
  • will be the law in New York State.
  • Because we need the support of the Gs, the Bs, and the Ls,
  • to make that happen, just like we supported them.
  • And it's getting better.
  • And it's much, much better.
  • I'm on the board of the Empire State Pride Agenda.
  • There's two other trans women on the--
  • or another trans woman on board with me.
  • That organization is very dedicated currently
  • to passing the Gender Expression Nondiscrimination
  • Act and other civil rights bills that
  • will further the life, not only of trans people,
  • but of GLBT people together again.
  • Until all of us have equal rights, really none of us
  • truly have equal rights.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's jump back a little bit.
  • PAMELA BARRES: I will get off the soap box.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, that's good.
  • I don't want to rush through it, that's all.
  • Let's start with your getting involved with Lambda at Kodak.
  • PAMELA BARRES: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Because that was really,
  • I think for you, the first times that you
  • started making efforts of getting transgender language
  • included--
  • PAMELA BARRES: Absolutely.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --in social change and corporate change.
  • PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just start there,
  • getting involved in Lambda and how
  • that I think for you personally--
  • PAMELA BARRES: Give me a date, would you?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know when that--
  • PAMELA BARRES: The first Pride parade
  • I went to is when the AIDS Garden had been dedicated.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That would be '93.
  • PAMELA BARRES: OK.
  • That would be about right.
  • Yeah.
  • That would probably be about right.
  • OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So, yeah, talk to me
  • about getting involved with Lambda and not only
  • what you were finding there, but that it was also doing for you
  • PAMELA BARRES: OK.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: personally in your journey.
  • PAMELA BARRES: OK.
  • I'm going to set it up this way.
  • In the early 1990s, '91, '92, I started
  • going to Syracuse a lot.
  • Because I could go to Syracuse, go to the bars, go to groups,
  • dress up.
  • And no one would--
  • I wouldn't run into my aunts or other people
  • that I work with and knew me.
  • And so it was a good place for me to go.
  • And I started marching.
  • I marched in a couple of the Syracuse Pride parades.
  • But I never had the guts to march in the Rochester Pride
  • parade.
  • I think it was 1993 that for some reason
  • I decided to go as Pamela with a friend of mine,
  • another transwoman.
  • And go to the Pride parade here in Rochester,
  • which started on Highland Avenue near the AIDS Garden.
  • I remember there was, I guess, a dedication to it.
  • And so I joined the Kodak because I didn't know anybody.
  • But there was a Kodak contingent.
  • I think it said Lambda.
  • And I started marching and brought my friend
  • with me, who didn't work for Kodak.
  • And we were marching with this contingent.
  • And I talked to a guy who introduced himself a David.
  • And we're marching along.
  • Because I chat a bit.
  • And we were chatting.
  • And he mentioned that there was this group at Kodak.
  • You know, what did I do?
  • And I told him I was in human resources at the time.
  • And you know to come to one of our meetings.
  • So I'm not sure exactly how many meetings, how many weeks
  • or months passed, but I did.
  • I remember going to a meeting.
  • And my office was up on the at this point,
  • I guess it was 1994 that I actually
  • went to my first meeting.
  • Because my office was right outside the conference room
  • that they met in.
  • And so I met after.
  • I think the meeting started at five or something like that.
  • And I sat as far away from the door in that conference room
  • as I could, so no one would walk by and see me in there.
  • And it seemed like a good group of people.
  • I liked them.
  • And I think I went out and had a beer or something with David
  • afterwards.
  • And we talked.
  • And I got to know him a little bit.
  • And I got more and more involved in Lambda.
  • And I was on the planning committee
  • for the first management event that Lambda had.
  • And therefore, I got more involved.
  • And I was a human resource person.
  • So also, it was a good cover, because we were promoting
  • networks at Kodak at that time.
  • They had the Hispanic network and the black network.
  • I think there was North Star and Lambda.
  • And you know, it was a big thing for Kodak.
  • Kay Whitmore was the CEO.
  • He was a Mormon, but he seemed to be
  • very supportiveas Mormons can be as supportive as a Mormon could
  • be perhaps.
  • And he was a decent man, Kay Whitmore.
  • So we were gonna have.
  • And then Kay left.
  • And George Fisher came in all about the time
  • when we were planning the first network event.
  • And so I got very involved in that.
  • And I was the table captain.
  • And we had a representative from management.
  • And I was the only person at the table
  • that would admit that they were a member of Lambda.
  • And I was in my three piece male business suit.
  • But I was in HR, and so it was cool.
  • And I hadn't told anybody.
  • You know, none of my management knew or anything like that.
  • But that's how I first got involved.
  • And I met Emily Jones, Kathryn Rivers, David Kosel.
  • And it was a good organization.
  • And I got on the Board of Directors.
  • They invited me to be on the Board of Directors.
  • And we were doing some reorganization.
  • So you know, I said, well, I've always considered myself
  • a part of the gay community.
  • Ever since I've come out, I felt very comfortable.
  • It's sometimes nice to have my part of the gay community
  • spelled out when we're talking about what we're working for.
  • So I suggest they put gender expression and identity
  • into the bylaws, which I guess were coming up
  • for a general review.
  • We were rewriting the mission and that kind of stuff.
  • And so it was put to a vote of the membership of Lambda.
  • And I had no idea what you had to do to be a member of Lambda.
  • I don't remember if there were dues.
  • You had a sign up, I think, or say something.
  • And it wasn't 100%, but it was a substantial number of people
  • that agreed that that's how that would happen,
  • that we would put gender expression and identity
  • or the word transgender-- at this point,
  • I don't remember which one it was--
  • into the bylaws.
  • And I felt great about that.
  • That was something I feel that I accomplished.
  • And then when I started to transition at Kodak,
  • that was one of the things that I
  • could use to help me transition when
  • I was talking with my management and my coworkers, which
  • I did for quite a while one at a time.
  • I'd have like an hour conversation with them.
  • After I did that for three or four people,
  • it gradually got down to like the two minute, "Hey,
  • by the way, you think I'm a male,
  • but I'm actually a female.
  • Hi."
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • Let's not rush through this.
  • I want to first ask you about, from your point, how
  • significant it was to get gender identity language
  • or transgender language into a corporate I mean,
  • I realize it's just the Lambda network.
  • But it's with a Fortune 500 company
  • that this is happening within.
  • You know, I mean, that was kind of groundbreaking.
  • PAMELA BARRES: You know, I guess,
  • I've been asked did I think this was a big deal that we
  • had this done.
  • Because there weren't all that many companies that did
  • have words, either transgender or gender expression
  • and identity, in their EEO policy.
  • There were a few.
  • I think IBM was quite an early leader.
  • GE was an early leader.
  • But to be honest with you, I never
  • really thought about that significance of it
  • as it came to Kodak.
  • I was more interested in trying to get
  • myself to feel more comfortable and to feel more included.
  • So I was looking for more inclusivity
  • and a part of Lambda.
  • And I thought that having the words transgender let's
  • just use that word, because I'm not sure what the word actually
  • was included would show us to be more open and supportive.
  • But make me feel better once in a while to hear it.
  • Not just to talk about gay and lesbians,
  • but to talk about gay, lesbian, bisexual,
  • and transgender, or GLBT as it eventually became shortened to.
  • So I never really thought about the significance of it
  • as, wow, this was a Fortune 500 company making this big change.
  • Because to me, it didn't seem like a big change.
  • It seemed like it was just an oversight of what always should
  • have been there to begin with.
  • Because we've always been part of it.
  • And I just didn't see the need not to.
  • Now, I have no problem talking about the gay community.
  • Because it's a big mouthful always
  • having to talk about gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender,
  • or spelling it out every single time, or talking about GLBT.
  • But you know, I know lesbians don't
  • like to always have the word gay used
  • and never be have lesbian being used.
  • So we all have our little thing where
  • we like to be a little more comfortable.
  • But generally, we're one big community.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me again
  • PAMELA BARRES: Sorry, I can't do better than that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, that's OK--
  • a little bit about this whole coming out experience for you,
  • coming out in the sense of transgender
  • coming out in the workplace.
  • You touched upon it a little bit.
  • But I can't imagine it was always a bed of roses.
  • PAMELA BARRES: Once I was comfortable socially
  • going to conferences and conventions
  • and going to the bars, the problem
  • was I was working as a guy.
  • And I felt less and less like a guy.
  • And initially, I thought I could pull this off
  • by trying to be a cross-dresser and, you know,
  • dressing on weekends periodically,
  • but living my life basically as a guy.
  • But that was not working for me, because that's not who I was.
  • I would go to these conferences.
  • And they would have the transsexual track
  • and the cross-dressing track.
  • And I quickly learned that I really
  • didn't want to learn how to buy the best falsies
  • or how to get the best beard cover
  • or how many pairs of stockings I needed to wear
  • to hide the hair on my legs.
  • I wanted to grow my own breasts.
  • I wanted to get rid of my beard.
  • And I wanted to shave my legs.
  • And I wanted to grow my hair out long.
  • I didn't want a great wig.
  • So I realized that I have to do something about work.
  • I had to transition.
  • That caused a lot of issues with my marriage,
  • huge number of issues, and rightly so.
  • I mean, it's a big step.
  • How do I know Kodak wouldn't fire me?
  • Because while Lambda network said
  • they supported transgender people,
  • there was nothing in their EEO policy
  • that said anything at all about gender expression and identity
  • and changing one's sex.
  • Now, I knew there had been at least one other person
  • that I was aware of that had changed their gender at Kodak,
  • worked at the office.
  • And I never had the guts to sit down and have lunch with her.
  • I wanted to in the worst way.
  • But I didn't have the guts to do it,
  • because people would make jokes about her.
  • And I worked at Kodak office.
  • And she'd come by with her tray.
  • And all the guys at the table would
  • make these little nasty remarks and stuff.
  • And I felt very sorry for her.
  • But I was too much of a coward to do it.
  • I've talked to her on the phone once or twice.
  • But I never got to talk to her.
  • So this was going to be a big, major step.
  • And how do I go about doing it?
  • And interestingly enough, my wife and I
  • had befriended a young transperson
  • who had a lot of mental issues it turns out.
  • And she sent a series of faxes to Kodak outing me.
  • She sent one to the CEO's office, one
  • to the head of HR's office, one to the employment office.
  • And the people that got them didn't believe them.
  • They got all the ones out of like--
  • I don't know it was Fisher's.
  • I forget who it might have been Fisher's office at the time.
  • But they got it back.
  • And McCarthy's assistant got it, who was the head of HR.
  • And so I forget the guy's name.
  • His first name was Jack--
  • called me in.
  • We chatted for a bit.
  • And he said, you know, we got these things.
  • He said, "do you know this person?"
  • I said, "Yes.
  • She's a kind of mentally ill person
  • that my wife and I tried to help.
  • And she kind of turned on us."
  • And I let it go at that.
  • But I kept my copy.
  • Because she sent me a copy, too, sent a copy to me and my wife,
  • also.
  • You know, they mailed it.
  • So I kept that copy.
  • And a couple of years later, I started
  • using that when I decided, OK, I have my little list,
  • my little portfolio of pictures of myself dressed up.
  • And I marched up to the head of Human Resources in his office.
  • Because the job I had at the time
  • gave me access to that level of management.
  • Because I worked for the Vice President of the Latin American
  • region as his HR Director.
  • So I did have reason to go see the head of Corporate HR.
  • And so I sat down.
  • And I said Mike, remember this thing
  • that came in a few years ago?
  • And I said, well, I said there's some parts of this is true.
  • Now, let me tell you about myself.
  • So when I started coming out, I came out at that level.
  • And then Kodak had a major reorganization.
  • And a lot of people got downgraded.
  • The jobs got changed.
  • I was one of the ones that happened to.
  • And so I went to my boss at that point and said,
  • "This may be OK.
  • I guess I can deal with this.
  • I'm not ready to retire.
  • I'm not able to retire.
  • But I'm going to start coming to work as a woman
  • probably in the next year."
  • And she was pretty cool about it.
  • It turns out she went running down the hallway
  • after I left to see her HR person
  • and say, "What do I do now?"
  • But basically, I started telling my coworkers slowly and slowly.
  • I started going to office parties off-site,
  • a couple of on-site, but mostly off-site, as Pam.
  • And I told them one at a time and you know,
  • I got a pretty good response.
  • I mean, these were people who were supposed
  • to be dealing sensitively with all kinds of people
  • with their problems.
  • So this was a good group.
  • And I actually won a door prize one time.
  • And the assistant head of HR give me a big hug
  • as I went tripping up there in my skirt.
  • So Kodak was pretty good about it.
  • And a couple of my client areas, they
  • asked me what was going on.
  • Because they could see that changes were occurring.
  • I had got my hair permed.
  • It was growing out.
  • I stopped wearing suits and ties.
  • I was dressing more casual, open neck shirts, maybe a sport
  • coat once in a while, a lot of sweaters.
  • And I got rid of the shirt and tie.
  • And so I told them.
  • And they told me, they said, "Well, we're interested in you
  • for your advice.
  • It doesn't really make any difference
  • what your sex or your gender is or really what you wear.
  • We value you for the advice and support you
  • can give us in doing this job."
  • So that made me feel really, really good.
  • And it went well.
  • And because-- I never fully transitioned.
  • Because that was one of the deals,
  • the compromises, that my wife and I, Sue and I,
  • had agreed upon is that as long as we
  • both worked at Kodak office, I wouldn't fully transition.
  • Because she was going to have to transition with me.
  • And it was bad enough that people maybe knew already.
  • And obviously, people knew about it.
  • But it would have been different if she
  • would've seen it every day walking through the halls.
  • And people would say, "Oh, see that?
  • That's her husband."
  • Et cetera, et cetera.
  • So we made that deal.
  • Even though people would come into my office
  • and they'd say, "Pardon me, ma'am,
  • I'm looking for P. Barres."
  • And I'd say, "You found her."
  • Because I was starting to look a little odd in my office.
  • And I had made arrangements with the nurse's office.
  • Because I wasn't comfortable in the men's room anymore.
  • And I knew I would have a tough time trying to use the ladies
  • room at this point.
  • And that's always been an issue when
  • people transition on a job.
  • Shouldn't be, but it is.
  • So I was only like a very quick one floor elevator ride
  • from the nurse's office.
  • So I made arrangements to use the restroom
  • up there if I need be.
  • And then shortly thereafter, there
  • was a early retirement offer that I
  • said I'm going to take this and move on with my life.
  • And then I can transition as I wish.
  • And that's what happened.
  • But I had a good experience at Kodak.
  • And I know that I helped other people transition.
  • Because my assistant became very, very helpful
  • to a couple of other people in my client groups
  • that did transition.
  • And I helped get the policy at Kodak
  • changed to actually include gender expression and identity
  • in their EEO policy.
  • So those are two things that I'm quite proud of,
  • both the Lambda thing, which at the time
  • I didn't really understand the full significance of it.
  • But certainly, getting gender expression and identity
  • which did not happen while I was there, but shortly thereafter,
  • into their EEO policy was something
  • that I think I helped make happen.
  • And I'm proud of to do that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: A couple quick things here on some people.
  • Talk to me about the David Kosel, the kind of person
  • he was, the significance of his contributions to Lambda
  • and the corporate environment for gays and lesbians.
  • PAMELA BARRES: David Kosel was a person that I, unfortunately,
  • have lost touch with.
  • But David was a great friend and a great guy.
  • And I would say my life was certainly better,
  • because I got to know David Kosel.
  • First time I met him was when I said, I think,
  • earlier that I marched with him in the Pride parade.
  • And David threw great parties.
  • He had tremendous energy.
  • He was just a person who was so enthusiastic
  • that you couldn't help but want to help him do a great job.
  • And he had great ideas.
  • And David maybe wasn't the most organized person always
  • in the world, but he always had all those balls up in the air.
  • And they never really hit the ground.
  • Somehow he could juggle things and get people to do things.
  • And I know he was the Chairperson for the Out
  • and Equal Conference, the first of Out
  • and Equal Conference here in Rochester.
  • I think that was in '98, 1998.
  • And I went to the organizational meeting
  • with a bunch of other people.
  • I don't know if there was--
  • I think there was like twelve, fifteen people in the room.
  • I'm not sure.
  • And so we went around the table.
  • And we all introduced ourselves, who we were, what did we do,
  • and why were we here.
  • And if it wasn't everybody, there may have been one person
  • in that room that didn't say the reason I'm here is
  • because I'm a friend of David Kosel's.
  • And he was that type of a leader, kind
  • of a natural person that you said, I love this guy.
  • And that's why I'm going to work with him.
  • And he had such what's the word I'm looking for?
  • Bravery, I guess.
  • He would approach anybody and talk to them.
  • He was out.
  • And he was happy being out.
  • And he wasn't ashamed of himself and didn't think anybody else
  • should be ashamed of himself.
  • And what do you mean you're not accepting us?
  • Of course, we belong here.
  • And of course, we have the right to do this.
  • And of course, you're going to do this for us.
  • And David pulled it off and pulled off a lot of things.
  • And he was just a nice, nice guy and a lot of fun.
  • And it took David a long time, I think,
  • to come to grips-- not to come to grips with,
  • but to really understand that transpeople
  • were part of his community.
  • But I think largely he has.
  • He did come around.
  • And certainly, him and I have always
  • had a good relationship and friends.
  • And I have the utmost respect for David.
  • And I hope he's doing very, very well.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: He'll be up here some time this summer.
  • Talk to me about Emily Jones.
  • PAMELA BARRES: OK.
  • Another person that was very, very, very much
  • involved in running Lambda and getting Lambda started along
  • with David and Kathryn Rivers, I guess, was Emily Jones.
  • I never got to know Emily very, very well.
  • Emily almost scares me that she is so efficient and organized.
  • And I'm just like the opposite of that, I guess--
  • a very smart woman, a very caring woman,
  • a woman with tremendous energy, a woman
  • who I think any organization that she's a member of,
  • that organization is probably going to be successful.
  • Particularly an organization she takes any kind
  • of a leadership role in.
  • She knows how to get things done.
  • She has contacts that other people don't have.
  • She's able to look at the need and pinpoint
  • what needs to be done to fulfill that need
  • and has a way of having it happen.
  • She works with other people.
  • And she moves other people around.
  • So Emily as I said, we've never been best friends or anything
  • like that.
  • We run in different circles.
  • But we seem to show up in the same places a lot.
  • And she's always been, I think, understanding
  • and interested in trans in supporting transgender
  • people and the subject itself.
  • And I have nothing but good things to say about Emily.
  • But we've never been good friends.
  • But she's a great resource for Rochester
  • and, actually, the whole country as far
  • as GLBT issues are concerned.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move a little forward,
  • you getting involved with GAGV.
  • Again, did you start up some transgender groups,
  • or were they already in existence?
  • I don't know.
  • PAMELA BARRES: In the mid-nineties,
  • the group the CD Network was a group that had both transgender
  • people--
  • excuse me, transsexual people, people identified
  • as transsexual or very gender variant people,
  • as well as cross-dressers.
  • And somehow that was creating tension in the organization.
  • A lot of the wives of the cross-dressers
  • were very afraid that somehow the transsexual people would
  • somehow infect their husbands.
  • And their husbands would want to become transsexuals, too,
  • which obviously doesn't happen.
  • You either are or you aren't.
  • But so my marriage had gone through some rough times.
  • We had split up for a while.
  • And I was house sitting for someone.
  • So I started having parties where
  • I invited the people that kind identified as transsexuals
  • to come.
  • And we kind of split off from the general CD Network.
  • Eventually, a person, a transwoman
  • about two years later by the name of Perette Barella
  • formed a group called the Rochester Transgender
  • Organization.
  • And I think after the second or third month,
  • I started attending those meetings.
  • And we met at the Gay Alliance of Genesee Valley
  • on Elton Street, which I had not been overly involved
  • with at that point at all.
  • In fact, I don't think I had been involved with them at all
  • up until that point.
  • And I got to know Tanya Smolinsky who was the program
  • director at the time.
  • And we talked a lot about different things
  • about what trans is all about and that kind of stuff.
  • And I took over the leadership of this Rochester Transgendered
  • excuse me, the Rochester Transgendered Organization.
  • And we change the name from organization
  • to group, because there was nothing organized about us.
  • And so she thought I should, you know, get on the board of GAGV.
  • And I guess she recommended me to the members of the board.
  • And so they invited me to get on the board.
  • And I did.
  • And I became eventually on the Board of Directors
  • of the Gay Alliance--
  • excuse me, let me stop for a second.
  • I got myself all (unintelligible).
  • After I got on the board for a year or two--
  • I had to be elected.
  • And that seemed to go fine.
  • And then I got on the executive committee and at one point
  • was the Finance Director for the Board for the Gay Alliance.
  • And we needed to make a change in our executive director
  • level.
  • And prior to that, however, I want to just touch
  • on one other thing.
  • After I was on the board, about the same time
  • we decided to hire our first executive director,
  • about a year after I got on the board I believe it was,
  • we had got a grant from the State
  • of New York that allowed us to hire a full-time paid executive
  • director.
  • In the process of doing that, we reorganized.
  • We did all of our mission statement over again
  • and, you know, all of those things that you do.
  • And we rewrote our bylaws.
  • And I suggested at that point, like I had done with Lambda,
  • that it was time to add gender expression
  • and identity into the bylaws.
  • And I know Ellen Yacknin and Harry Bronson were both also
  • on the Board at that point.
  • Harry might have been--
  • or Ellen or Kim Brumber, one of those folks
  • were, in fact, the President of the Board.
  • And this was, I think, unanimously agreed
  • to that, yes, this was the right thing to do.
  • And so the GAGV became not just a gay and lesbian organization,
  • but a gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender organization.
  • And that was added to the bylaws.
  • Once we made a change about two Executive Directors down,
  • we ended up terminating the Executive Director of the Gay
  • Alliance at that time.
  • We needed an interim Executive Director.
  • And I had recently retired.
  • And somehow it seemed like my career, my skill set,
  • seemed to fit the need at the moment,
  • or I get the short straw.
  • One is never sure how that works out.
  • But I was asked if I would be the interim Executive Director.
  • And I took it.
  • I'm happy I did.
  • It was a great experience.
  • I was there for nine months.
  • The organization was falling apart.
  • The morale of the staff at that point was at a low.
  • We had lost a couple of valuable employees.
  • Our finances were in a little bit of a shambles.
  • And I took over.
  • And the second day I was there, the only person that
  • had any idea how any of the systems works
  • came into my office and said he was leaving.
  • Nothing that I said "How could you hate me yet?
  • I've only been here a day."
  • He said, "But I already had the job lined up,
  • and the offer came through."
  • So we then had the blind literally leading the blind.
  • In 2002, in June when I took over,
  • it turns out that we had the picnic coming up.
  • And no one had got the license to allow us to serve
  • legal beverages at the picnic.
  • That would have been a real problem.
  • There was a lot of frantic phone calls and almost a drive
  • to Buffalo to get the license.
  • But that finally arrived, I think,
  • the day before the picnic was to start.
  • I couldn't pay any bills unless I checked with the bank
  • first to make sure we had enough cash at that particular moment
  • to come in.
  • And then the picnic came in.
  • And we're counting money.
  • And wow, we had enough money to pay the bills for the picnic.
  • And it was an amazing time.
  • And I loved the job, absolutely, dearly loved the job.
  • I never worked so hard in my life, spent so many hours
  • in the office.
  • And I was making at least half I was making, yeah,
  • half my salary at Kodak and working probably twice as
  • long for it.
  • But it was a great job.
  • I had no social life other than the Gay Alliance.
  • And my spouse wasn't overly thrilled
  • with the hours I was putting in.
  • But it was super.
  • And for me, it was the biggest growth experience
  • I'd had probably in a lot, a lot of years.
  • Because you know, I was out.
  • But I wasn't necessarily 100% out to everyone.
  • I'd still go to family picnics kind of pretty androgynously.
  • But if you're interviewed on TV once or twice
  • and you're quoted in a newspaper a couple of times,
  • there's no way possible to be the Executive
  • Director of the Gay Alliance interim
  • or permanent without being out to everyone.
  • And so, I blossomed.
  • I think, personally, I felt that I learned
  • so much from the other women.
  • I learned what being a woman is about.
  • It's not about fancy makeup.
  • It's not about high heeled shoes.
  • It's about being who you are and being true to yourself.
  • And you can be a great woman.
  • And you don't have to look like a model and a fashion
  • plate every day of the week.
  • And I never have since, never sure I did before.
  • But I definitely haven't since.
  • I use it as shorthand to say, I learned
  • about comfortable shoes.
  • And that's obviously the small part of it.
  • But it was a great experience for me.
  • And I'm proud of what I was able to accomplish.
  • Not only did I put the organization morale-wise
  • for the nine months I was there in a much better position,
  • the staff, we had fun again.
  • It was a pleasant place to work.
  • And I left with a balanced budget
  • and left with two hundred thousand dollars in the bank.
  • So I think I did my job.
  • And while we were there, New York State Legislature
  • passed the SONDA bill in December of 2002.
  • And I was interviewed in the newspaper
  • and on television about that.
  • And I was very happy for it.
  • But I said, there's part of our organization,
  • part of our community, that's still been left out.
  • And you've done nothing for gender expression and identity.
  • And that was in 2002.
  • As we record this, it's 2012, ten years later.
  • And I would put lots of money on it's not
  • going to happen in 2012.
  • But I do hope strongly it will happen in 2013.
  • Did I cover enough?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You did.
  • I just got two brief questions here.
  • And you may have an answer for this, and you may not.
  • But
  • PAMELA BARRES: I can make one up, can't I?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, you can make one up.
  • PAMELA BARRES: What do you think I'm doing?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: When you look at the history
  • of the gay community throughout the decades,
  • Rochester has always had a key place
  • within the social activism and gay rights.
  • We've always been at the forefront.
  • From your point of view, what does that
  • say about Rochester, of who we are
  • in this community and the way this community has stepped up
  • for gay rights and transgender issues?
  • PAMELA BARRES: People ask me where I'm from.
  • And I tell him I'm from Rochester, New York.
  • And interestingly in our community, a lot of people
  • know about Rochester, New York.
  • And they have a very positive opinion of Rochester.
  • And I don't know if it's something in the water
  • or what it is.
  • But this is a good place to be gay.
  • It's a good place to be GLBT in Rochester, and more so
  • than some of the other cities in New York State like Syracuse
  • and Buffalo.
  • And I think part of it is that we've always had an educated
  • workforce in Rochester.
  • We've always had good education in Rochester.
  • While there are certainly factory jobs
  • at all the corporations in Rochester, a lot of them
  • require some skill, required maybe more education
  • than just putting widgets in a box on an assembly line
  • someplace else.
  • And we also have a history in Rochester
  • of being a leader going back into the 1800s, women's rights.
  • Susan B. Anthony, obviously, was a huge part
  • in the Women's Suffrage Movement here in Rochester and also
  • the areas a little bit to the south and east of here
  • down to Seneca Falls and Auburn and stuff.
  • So the Abolitionist Movement was very strong here
  • Frederick Douglass published his paper here.
  • So Rochester has always had kind of a social conscience,
  • I guess, for want of another word.
  • It's also been kind of a standoffish city
  • in many respects.
  • There used to be a book called Smugtown, USA.
  • But we were prosperous.
  • We had George Eastman, who was a great philanthropist.
  • No matter what you think of George Eastman and some
  • of his criminalistic policies, he
  • was a tremendous humanitarian and philanthropist
  • in what he funded, great hospitals, great Eastman
  • theater, Eastman School of Music, dental clinics,
  • money he gave to all kinds of educational needs.
  • And he provided a comfortable setting for his employees
  • to work in from a security standpoint.
  • They made good salaries.
  • Rochester products, Delco, the General Motors facility,
  • affiliates did very, very well here.
  • Xerox came up, became a major, major player.
  • Bausch and Lomb had been here for a long time.
  • So people were not economically depressed
  • too often in Rochester.
  • And I think if you're not struggling
  • to look for where your next meal is coming from,
  • you're not necessarily worried about losing your job,
  • you can become a little bit more progressive
  • in your points of view.
  • Sure we had a lot of Republicans.
  • But they weren't the type of Republicans
  • we're talking about today.
  • We were talking about smaller versus bigger government.
  • But socially, this has always been a good place.
  • So I'm not sure exactly why Rochester has been so open.
  • But it has been.
  • And there were Italian immigrants.
  • There were German immigrants.
  • There were Irish immigrants.
  • And they kind of melded together in Rochester.
  • And maybe some of it was there was
  • a large Catholic population, which in some degrees
  • can be even more progressive socially in some areas.
  • Not necessarily on the subject of homosexuality,
  • but generally.
  • And so there's maybe somewhat of a liberal atmosphere
  • in the Rochester area that has played into this acceptance.
  • And I think that higher educational level that
  • maybe is higher than some of the surrounding cities
  • have helped make this atmosphere available.
  • But other than that, I guess I'm as much of--
  • what's the word I'm looking for--
  • I have no idea what the word I'm looking for is.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: No, it's all right.
  • Because the last question is--
  • PAMELA BARRES: Do you agree with that, by the way?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I do.
  • I think it has to do with back like Eastman and Carlson
  • and Xerox and trying to make this the best city
  • to attract the best workers.
  • PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.
  • Yeah, yeah.
  • That's good.
  • I forgot that part of it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Future generations looking back
  • at our history, what do you want them to know about who
  • Pam Barres was and your contributions to making
  • this a better place for LGBT people?
  • PAMELA BARRES: When I think back about what
  • I've done over the years since I've been involved
  • in this community, and I was basically a latecomer
  • to the community.
  • I didn't get involved with this community until my forties.
  • And I'm now almost seventy.
  • I will be seventy this year.
  • So it's been a interesting journey for me,
  • a very interesting journey.
  • And the thing I'm proudest of is that I've never considered
  • myself to be a trans activist.
  • I've considered myself to be a GLBT activist, an activist
  • for the whole community.
  • And hence, I was very happy to be part of the Lambda network.
  • I was very happy to be part of the GAGV
  • prior to them including gender expression
  • and identity into their EEO policies or their--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Mission statement.
  • PAMELA BARRES: --mission statements,
  • thank you, into their mission statements.
  • Because I strongly believe we're all one community.
  • So I'm very happy about that.
  • I'm happy I got involved with the Empire State Pride Agenda.
  • Which, you know, it took them a long time
  • to also come around to having a EEO--
  • or excuse me, mission statements that include gender expression
  • and identity.
  • But they did.
  • They did.
  • And I think I was a part of having that happen.
  • I think I set an example of someone that can be trusted,
  • someone that's honest, that's hard working,
  • and tries to do their part, and someone you can count on.
  • If you ask them to do something, I generally
  • try very hard to do it.
  • I think it was my Boy Scout training.
  • I once said being in Boy Scouts helped me
  • make me the woman I am today.
  • which I did not mean that as a joke actually.
  • But I think the person that heard it thought it was a joke.
  • But it was true.
  • So I'm proudest of the accomplishments
  • I've made of I was an example of a trans person that's
  • part of the community and is looking
  • at the welfare of the overall community as a whole.
  • And I'm proudest of the specific things
  • I've done to be able to get the words gender
  • expression and identity into some of the mission statements.
  • Because it helps.
  • It's like passing a non-discrimination law.
  • It doesn't end discrimination, but it's
  • a step in the right direction.
  • When it's written down someplace,
  • somehow it carries more weight than that it's just assumed.
  • So those are the things that I think
  • I want people to know about me.
  • And I've had a great time.
  • This is my home.
  • This is my family.
  • This community means a great deal to me.
  • And I'm happy I did it in Rochester very, very much so.
  • And I'm happy that I can be an example that you
  • can live your life, maintain your life, you can be yourself,
  • come out, transition.
  • And you don't have to be afraid.
  • And you know, it doesn't mean you got to lose everything.
  • Things work out very, very well.
  • And it's only getting better as we progress
  • and as the society becomes more and more accepting
  • of people that are different.
  • And if we don't come out, and if we
  • don't tell people about who we are, things will never improve.
  • Because they won't know we're there.
  • So I say, you know, come out.
  • It's great out here.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: The water's fine.
  • PAMELA BARRES: Yup.
  • That's it.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: They have a merit badge for transgenders
  • now, right, for Boy Scouts?
  • PAMELA BARRES: I have no fucking idea.
  • I doubt it.
  • There was a guy from the Otetiana Council.
  • We were going around when Gay Alliance was
  • working with the Council, trying to get
  • him to become less homophobic.
  • And so we went around the room.
  • And the President of their Council and their CEO
  • or their President, whoever it was, the President and their ED
  • were there and a bunch of other people.
  • And I said, well, you know, I worked at Camp Massawepie.
  • And I got my twenty-one merit badges
  • to be an Eagle, even though I never got the award itself.
  • And I said, you know, Boy Scouts are great.
  • I said, you know, being in the Scouts helped
  • make me the woman I am today.
  • And I thought the guy was going to fall over.