Video Interview, Pamela Barres, June 6, 2012

PAMELA BARRES: So do you work for XXI, Brian?

BRIAN: No.

KEVIN INDOVINO: He used to.

BRIAN: I used to.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I actually used to be

his boss for a very short time.

BRIAN: Yes, he was.

KEVIN INDOVINO: And that was fun, wasn't it, Brian?

BRIAN: That was a delight.

Every day was like Christmas.

PAMELA BARRES: Oh, yeah.

I'm sure.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Pam, just for a microphone check,

can you give us the correct spelling

of your first and last name and how you want

to be identified on screen?

PAMELA BARRES: Pamela Barres, Pamela, P-A-M-E-L-A. Barres,

B-A-R-R-E-S. So it's like, you know, if you're going to a bar,

you go to another bar.

You go to bars.

BRIAN: Bars.

OK.

PAMELA BARRES: Candy bars.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start at the beginning

of your transition.

When you first started thinking about this for yourself,

this personal decision that you had to make,

tell me about that story.

But then also move it into where were you finding information

here in Rochester about it?

PAMELA BARRES: OK.

My transition from male to female

is not that something that happened at one moment.

I think for all people really it's a journey.

It's not a moment in time.

There may be a moment in time when you tell the first person.

But it may be a long, long time before you

move beyond that first person.

I knew that I was different really

as far back as I can remember.

And I don't know the exact age, but it was certainly

I think before I started kindergarten even and maybe

further back than that.

But I didn't really know what it was.

I knew that I wanted to wear the little party

dresses to birthday parties that some of my girl cousins wore

and the nice black Mary Jane patent leather shoes.

But I was told I couldn't do that.

And so, you know, you kind of go along.

But it never went away.

And I know I also learned very early on this

was not something that you should tell anybody else,

because it didn't get good results.

I mean, I wasn't beat up or anything by my parents.

But it just wasn't a thing you did.

I'm little boy.

That's what you are.

And this is what you wear.

And this is what you do.

So I basically built a wall around myself.

And I kind of moved into a little shell.

And I got along pretty good.

I did all the boys things I was supposed to do.

And I was in a lot of fights.

I was the smallest kid in school at the time

and joined the Boy Scouts and, you know, got my merit badges

and worked at a scout camp.

But secretly, often, I would wear women's clothing,

little pieces of underwear-- not little pieces of underwear,

I was bigger than that--

under my male clothing.

Because underneath, I could feel that I really

was this woman, this girl.

Even though the outside world didn't see it,

it made me feel more feminine, I guess,

more like it seemed right.

It seemed very right.

And I actually worked at a scout camp.

And I would shoplift from in Tupper Lake from an Eisner's

a pair of panties.

And I'm not proud of shoplifting, but I did.

I was too embarrassed to buy--

and a bra.

And I would go up in the woods on my day

off and put these clothes on and put my clothes back on over it.

And I'd sit under a tree and read.

And it was not every day, not every day off, but some.

So that kind of stuff kind of progressed.

And eventually, my parents found my secret stash of clothes

one time, my mother did.

And we used to play chess together, my father and I.

We never played chess for like twenty years after that night.

And at the time, I was very serious with the person

that became my wife.

And they made me promise that I had to tell her.

So I got drugged up pretty good.

And I got her a little drunk.

And I told her.

And she was pretty brave about the whole thing.

And she wasn't sure.

I didn't know.

There was no information.

This was in the early sixties.

There was no information.

I used to go to the--

I don't even know how I got some of the name--

initial words, I guess.

But I'd go to the library and look under transportation.

Because I could find trans--

transvestite.

Transsexual wasn't even really coined very much at that point.

Looking for information in books,

it was generally bad stuff and abnormal psychology.

And it didn't make you feel like this

is something you really wanted to be to be honest with you.

But Sue decided, let's see what happens.

She was, as I said, pretty brave.

And we experimented with me cross-dressing a little bit.

But I looked like a proverbial truck driver in drag.

And she laughed at me.

And I didn't like being laughed at.

So I just kind of suppressed it.

And I was going to school.

She was working.

So I'd come home sometimes, and I

could do a few little things being dressed up.

And it made me feel good.

But I basically just put it tried to suppress it,

put it in the background and spent a lot of time drinking.

That was my release.

And I got a job with Kodak in New York City,

a lot of sales jobs.

And we'd party and had a good time.

And I was abusing alcohol for a lot

of years, predominately beer, but other liquor as well.

And I started having all kinds of stomach problems.

Eventually, I saw a psychiatrist.

Because they couldn't find anything really physically

wrong with me.

And I told him that I thought maybe I wanted to be a woman.

And his advice was don't ever do that.

Suppress it.

It's great being a guy.

And so I did.

And it ended up, I had a daughter.

I had another daughter.

I got a job with Kodak back in Rochester

traveling internationally--

great job, but it was stressful, traveled all around the world.

But when you're out five weeks, four weeks at a time,

away from home, it's stressful.

And this was I bought a night gown in South Africa.

I had it gift wrapped.

And I would carefully every time I'd get there,

I'd open the gift wrapping carefully.

And I'd wear it at night.

And I'd fold it back up, and put it back in a gift

wrapped package, tape it back up again, put it in my suitcase.

Figured if I went through customs, it's always--

I mean, I was paranoid, if anybody found out,

my world would dissolve, that no one would love me.

I'd lose everything I got.

And I would have to kill myself or something.

So I was very, very afraid.

And now, when I realized I'm being videotaped here, I get up

and make talks at colleges, it's like where

did this person come from?

How did I get here?

And so eventually, it was a series of telling more people.

And in 1988, I'd been seeing a psychiatrist again

who told me to do nothing about this at all,

and we'd get cured.

Well, we weren't being cured.

It was getting worse and worse and worse.

I was in my middle forties.

I shaved off my mustache for my forty-fifth anniversary

because women did not wear--

forty-fifth birthday I should say.

Women don't have mustaches.

Well, some do.

But I didn't want to be one that did.

I am Italian descent, but anyway.

That probably should not be in the thing.

And then a couple of months later, my cousin who was

like a brother to me--

I was an only child-- died unexpectedly

on the way to work one morning, dropped over, heart attack.

I went home from his funeral and called the Medical Society

here in Rochester, Monroe County,

and got a name of a therapist that knew something

about this subject, transsexualism or transvestism.

I thought I was a transsexual.

But I didn't know really what it meant exactly.

And so I saw this person.

She was very helpful.

What she did for me was to make me

realize I had nothing to be ashamed of.

This is who I am.

And the question is, how do I live comfortably

and deal with my life and be the best person I can

be and be as happy as I can be?

And I did not want to lose my marriage.

At that time, I'd probably been married about forty--

excuse me, twenty-five years, when this was all

coming to a head between twenty-two, twenty-three,

twenty-four, twenty-five years.

And actually, my twenty-fifth wedding anniversary,

I was convinced that I probably wouldn't have another one,

that we would fall apart.

But we didn't.

And we'll be celebrating our forty-eighth wedding

anniversary in October.

So it's been a journey.

It's been a lot of compromise.

Things are not perfect.

But I don't know anyone that's really perfect

and is always a 100 percent happy all the time.

But I'm as close as I can get.

I couldn't be happier that I did this.

If I could take a pill and say, well, it would go away,

I wouldn't do it.

Because I've transitioned, I've met wonderful people.

I've had great experiences.

I got myself involved with the GLBT community

here in Rochester and to some degree on a statewide level.

And these are experiences I wouldn't

have had any other way.

So I'm much happier with myself.

And my life hasn't fallen apart.

My marriage hasn't fallen apart.

I have two great daughters that are supportive.

So things are good.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Before we get into some of your activism--

PAMELA BARRES: Is that too bad?

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, it's fine.

PAMELA BARRES: It's OK?

OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: There's pieces in there

I've already gotten in my head.

But one thing came up as you were talking

that I just wrote down here.

And I just want your opinion on this.

Is that stereotype from the heterosexual community

that gay men all want to be women, really--

and that can't be farther from the truth.

PAMELA BARRES: Right.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, what is your opinion on that?

How do you respond to that stereotype?

PAMELA BARRES: Do you want me to answer the question?

Do you want me to set up the question?

KEVIN INDOVINO: Set up the question, yeah.

PAMELA BARRES: OK.

How do I set up the question?

First of all, when I was going through this process of trying

to figure out what was going on with me,

what was wrong with me, one of the things I wondered about

was, was I gay?

Did I really want to have sex with men?

And at the time, I didn't.

It didn't seem it just didn't seem right to me somehow.

Not morally, it just wasn't something

I was really interested in.

And I tried to put myself in positions

periodically to see if somebody picked me up, and no one did.

That was a little disappointing maybe.

But anyway-- and this idea is that, well, gay men want

to be women, or if you want to be a woman,

you must be a gay man.

And nothing could be further from the truth.

Because first of all, being transgender

is about your gender identity.

It's not so much who you want to have sex,

who you want to go to bed with.

It's how you feel internally.

And if you're a transsexual, you would

identify as a different gender than what people told you

you were when you were born.

If you're a transvestite, you know what your sex is,

but you have this urge that you have to present yourself

periodically and in another mode to feel comfortable

and relaxed.

And there may even be some kind of a sexual fetish

to some degree at least initially maybe

in that motivation.

But gay men don't want to be women.

Gay men like men.

The thing that women don't have is a penis.

Most gay men are attracted to their penises.

Most transsexual women don't want to have a penis.

And that's not something that they're

interested in depending on their sexual orientation.

Because the other thing that people get confused about

is gender identity and sexual orientation, thinking they're

one and the same, that all trans women

want to have sex with men.

There's lots of trans women that identify as lesbian or bi.

And I identify myself as primarily interested in women.

Though, I have discovered I probably

have some bi interest as well, though I'm not acting on it.

Because I'm in a monogamous relationship.

But someplace along the line, I think I gave myself permission

to look at men differently than I did when I was much younger.

So I don't know where this idea--

I think in our society, we're so focused on binary.

You have to be this or that.

And we ignore all the shades of gray.

And one of the beauties I have found out

is that there's just all kinds of different shadings of gray

between maybe the two black and white extremes.

And I guess I've always lived my life and looked at it that way.

I'm not big on absolutes.

KEVIN INDOVINO: I just want to touch a little bit more

on maybe the frustration that you

had in the lack of information back

in those days, you know, at the library,

not being able to have access to--

PAMELA BARRES: Right, OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --resources that could

help you come to terms with what you were feeling at the time.

PAMELA BARRES: One of the things that

was a problem when you know you're different,

and you're going through trying to figure out

why you're different and what to do about it,

is getting information that's somewhat factual

and that you can relate to.

And I was lucky enough through my therapist

to be introduced to some other people

that she was working with who were also trans people.

And she also put me in touch with some books

that she suggested I read.

Conundrum was one of the first books

that she suggested that I take a look at.

And through some of the friends I met,

I got involved with a local support group

here in Rochester at the time.

It was called the Transvestites Anonymous,

which with a name like that was not too anonymous when

you went up to get the mail from the post office box.

But anyway, first, they had gone out of existence.

But they reformed about six, seven months after I

started seeing my therapist.

And at the first meeting, we changed our name

to the CD Network, which was a lot more secretive, I guess,

than Transvestites Anonymous.

And that was the only group in town.

But through that, I got information

about an organization called the IFGE, International Foundation

for Gender Education.

And they had conferences.

Luckily, I had enough money and my job

was good enough that allowed me to go

to a couple of these conferences and to get and subscribe

to their magazine, which was called the Transgender

Tapestry.

And so I got lots of good information there.

And then I met people all around the country, doctors,

psychologists, lawyers, ministers, policemen,

that were like me, or somewhat like me.

We're all slightly different, but there's

a lot of commonality.

And so that's how I got most of my information.

That was before the internet really.

And today, there's such a wealth of information out there.

And it's on television shows.

And it's talked about.

I mean, when it used to be on one of these talk shows,

the word would pass around.

Everybody had to tune on their television

that particular afternoon to watch the Sally Jesse Raphael

Show or whatever it was, even Jerry Springer sometimes,

which I detest the Jerry Springer Show.

But that's beside the point.

But so it was difficult. Today, there's

maybe almost too much information out there.

Because you don't know what's the good information

and what's the bad information.

And like any minority group, we have

people that write these long essays about how many angels

can dance on the head of a pin.

What's the proper term for us?

Who's included?

Who's not included?

And unfortunately, I think that's not only

the case in the trans part of the community,

but it's also the case in the GLBT community.

Sometimes you spend more time fighting among ourselves

as to which one of these little organizations is better.

And we forget the big enemy out there.

And we need to continue to band together, to be united,

to get equal rights for all people,

not just my little group versus your little group.

KEVIN INDOVINO: It's interesting that you bring that up.

Because, you know, there is so much talk about--

as you mentioned, transgender issues

isn't really a gay issue.

It's an identity issue.

But yet, the transgender community

has become so aligned with the gay and lesbian community

as part of the overall gay rights movement.

Why do you think that happened?

PAMELA BARRES: One of the things that I

had to fight when I first came out

was being part of the gay community

and using that term in its broadest sense.

And a lot of people, including my therapist,

who turns out to be lesbian, said "you're not really gay.

You're not part of this community.

This is about gender."

But the thing is, you know, that trans people have always

been part of the gay community going back

to the beginning of time, probably before words

were coined, like homosexual or transvestite or whatever,

or transsexual certainly.

And there's probably nothing more gender variant

to overall society than two men wanting

to be intimate with each other or two women wanting

to be intimate with each other.

I mean, to the straight society today,

that's gender variant big time.

A lot of women are much more masculine.

A lot of men are much more feminine.

Does that mean they cross-dress, and they want to be the other?

No.

But they express their gender different.

And the thing that people hate, the thing

that people know about us, is our expression.

So if you're a very butch woman or a very effeminate man,

you're going to be picked on.

Because they don't really know who you're sleeping with

or care.

But you're crossing those gender stereotypes.

So I had a friend, David Kosel.

And David, while he was always very nice to me

and very supportive to me, we used

to have long arguments about why does trans people have to march

in the gay pride parade.

Because it's not about sex.

Well, the other thing is that I kept

reminding David that for a lot of trans people,

it is about sex.

Because they want to have sex with the same people

that they identify with, the same

gender that they identify with.

Does that make them gay?

Or does that make them straight?

Were they gay before they had an operation,

or were they straight after they had the operation?

So it's a very confusing thing.

And we've always been a part of it.

Part of it, I think, the reason that

in the fifties and the sixties maybe, there was this--

we have to assimilate.

We want the same rights.

Certainly, after Stonewall in '69,

it was how do we get the straight people to allow us

into their club?

And so we'll get rid of these people

that don't seem to fit the stereotype of being straight.

So the leather men with the chaps and the flamboyant drag

queens started less and less showing up

in gay pride parades.

Because that was the image that they didn't want to show,

because that would further separate us

from what we wanted, which was to be into the club.

And now unfortunately, a lot of people are in the club.

But there's still a few of us outside,

like transgender people, particularly

in New York State who do not have

equal rights, who have no nondiscrimination

rights protecting them.

And we're having a tough time getting back in.

We supported marriage equality.

We supported hate crimes.

We supported SONDA.

And yet, gender expression and identity

is not explicitly mentioned in any of those bills.

And we have no explicit protections.

Things are improving.

But I would hope by the time that people actually

view this documentary, that the GENDA bill,

the Gender Expression Nondiscrimination Act

will be the law in New York State.

Because we need the support of the Gs, the Bs, and the Ls,

to make that happen, just like we supported them.

And it's getting better.

And it's much, much better.

I'm on the board of the Empire State Pride Agenda.

There's two other trans women on the--

or another trans woman on board with me.

That organization is very dedicated currently

to passing the Gender Expression Nondiscrimination

Act and other civil rights bills that

will further the life, not only of trans people,

but of GLBT people together again.

Until all of us have equal rights, really none of us

truly have equal rights.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's jump back a little bit.

PAMELA BARRES: I will get off the soap box.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, that's good.

I don't want to rush through it, that's all.

Let's start with your getting involved with Lambda at Kodak.

PAMELA BARRES: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: Because that was really,

I think for you, the first times that you

started making efforts of getting transgender language

included--

PAMELA BARRES: Absolutely.

KEVIN INDOVINO: --in social change and corporate change.

PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just start there,

getting involved in Lambda and how

that I think for you personally--

PAMELA BARRES: Give me a date, would you?

KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know when that--

PAMELA BARRES: The first Pride parade

I went to is when the AIDS Garden had been dedicated.

KEVIN INDOVINO: That would be '93.

PAMELA BARRES: OK.

That would be about right.

Yeah.

That would probably be about right.

OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So, yeah, talk to me

about getting involved with Lambda and not only

what you were finding there, but that it was also doing for you

PAMELA BARRES: OK.

KEVIN INDOVINO: personally in your journey.

PAMELA BARRES: OK.

I'm going to set it up this way.

In the early 1990s, '91, '92, I started

going to Syracuse a lot.

Because I could go to Syracuse, go to the bars, go to groups,

dress up.

And no one would--

I wouldn't run into my aunts or other people

that I work with and knew me.

And so it was a good place for me to go.

And I started marching.

I marched in a couple of the Syracuse Pride parades.

But I never had the guts to march in the Rochester Pride

parade.

I think it was 1993 that for some reason

I decided to go as Pamela with a friend of mine,

another transwoman.

And go to the Pride parade here in Rochester,

which started on Highland Avenue near the AIDS Garden.

I remember there was, I guess, a dedication to it.

And so I joined the Kodak because I didn't know anybody.

But there was a Kodak contingent.

I think it said Lambda.

And I started marching and brought my friend

with me, who didn't work for Kodak.

And we were marching with this contingent.

And I talked to a guy who introduced himself a David.

And we're marching along.

Because I chat a bit.

And we were chatting.

And he mentioned that there was this group at Kodak.

You know, what did I do?

And I told him I was in human resources at the time.

And you know to come to one of our meetings.

So I'm not sure exactly how many meetings, how many weeks

or months passed, but I did.

I remember going to a meeting.

And my office was up on the at this point,

I guess it was 1994 that I actually

went to my first meeting.

Because my office was right outside the conference room

that they met in.

And so I met after.

I think the meeting started at five or something like that.

And I sat as far away from the door in that conference room

as I could, so no one would walk by and see me in there.

And it seemed like a good group of people.

I liked them.

And I think I went out and had a beer or something with David

afterwards.

And we talked.

And I got to know him a little bit.

And I got more and more involved in Lambda.

And I was on the planning committee

for the first management event that Lambda had.

And therefore, I got more involved.

And I was a human resource person.

So also, it was a good cover, because we were promoting

networks at Kodak at that time.

They had the Hispanic network and the black network.

I think there was North Star and Lambda.

And you know, it was a big thing for Kodak.

Kay Whitmore was the CEO.

He was a Mormon, but he seemed to be

very supportiveas Mormons can be as supportive as a Mormon could

be perhaps.

And he was a decent man, Kay Whitmore.

So we were gonna have.

And then Kay left.

And George Fisher came in all about the time

when we were planning the first network event.

And so I got very involved in that.

And I was the table captain.

And we had a representative from management.

And I was the only person at the table

that would admit that they were a member of Lambda.

And I was in my three piece male business suit.

But I was in HR, and so it was cool.

And I hadn't told anybody.

You know, none of my management knew or anything like that.

But that's how I first got involved.

And I met Emily Jones, Kathryn Rivers, David Kosel.

And it was a good organization.

And I got on the Board of Directors.

They invited me to be on the Board of Directors.

And we were doing some reorganization.

So you know, I said, well, I've always considered myself

a part of the gay community.

Ever since I've come out, I felt very comfortable.

It's sometimes nice to have my part of the gay community

spelled out when we're talking about what we're working for.

So I suggest they put gender expression and identity

into the bylaws, which I guess were coming up

for a general review.

We were rewriting the mission and that kind of stuff.

And so it was put to a vote of the membership of Lambda.

And I had no idea what you had to do to be a member of Lambda.

I don't remember if there were dues.

You had a sign up, I think, or say something.

And it wasn't 100%, but it was a substantial number of people

that agreed that that's how that would happen,

that we would put gender expression and identity

or the word transgender-- at this point,

I don't remember which one it was--

into the bylaws.

And I felt great about that.

That was something I feel that I accomplished.

And then when I started to transition at Kodak,

that was one of the things that I

could use to help me transition when

I was talking with my management and my coworkers, which

I did for quite a while one at a time.

I'd have like an hour conversation with them.

After I did that for three or four people,

it gradually got down to like the two minute, "Hey,

by the way, you think I'm a male,

but I'm actually a female.

Hi."

KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.

Let's not rush through this.

I want to first ask you about, from your point, how

significant it was to get gender identity language

or transgender language into a corporate I mean,

I realize it's just the Lambda network.

But it's with a Fortune 500 company

that this is happening within.

You know, I mean, that was kind of groundbreaking.

PAMELA BARRES: You know, I guess,

I've been asked did I think this was a big deal that we

had this done.

Because there weren't all that many companies that did

have words, either transgender or gender expression

and identity, in their EEO policy.

There were a few.

I think IBM was quite an early leader.

GE was an early leader.

But to be honest with you, I never

really thought about that significance of it

as it came to Kodak.

I was more interested in trying to get

myself to feel more comfortable and to feel more included.

So I was looking for more inclusivity

and a part of Lambda.

And I thought that having the words transgender let's

just use that word, because I'm not sure what the word actually

was included would show us to be more open and supportive.

But make me feel better once in a while to hear it.

Not just to talk about gay and lesbians,

but to talk about gay, lesbian, bisexual,

and transgender, or GLBT as it eventually became shortened to.

So I never really thought about the significance of it

as, wow, this was a Fortune 500 company making this big change.

Because to me, it didn't seem like a big change.

It seemed like it was just an oversight of what always should

have been there to begin with.

Because we've always been part of it.

And I just didn't see the need not to.

Now, I have no problem talking about the gay community.

Because it's a big mouthful always

having to talk about gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender,

or spelling it out every single time, or talking about GLBT.

But you know, I know lesbians don't

like to always have the word gay used

and never be have lesbian being used.

So we all have our little thing where

we like to be a little more comfortable.

But generally, we're one big community.

KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me again

PAMELA BARRES: Sorry, I can't do better than that.

KEVIN INDOVINO: No, that's OK--

a little bit about this whole coming out experience for you,

coming out in the sense of transgender

coming out in the workplace.

You touched upon it a little bit.

But I can't imagine it was always a bed of roses.

PAMELA BARRES: Once I was comfortable socially

going to conferences and conventions

and going to the bars, the problem

was I was working as a guy.

And I felt less and less like a guy.

And initially, I thought I could pull this off

by trying to be a cross-dresser and, you know,

dressing on weekends periodically,

but living my life basically as a guy.

But that was not working for me, because that's not who I was.

I would go to these conferences.

And they would have the transsexual track

and the cross-dressing track.

And I quickly learned that I really

didn't want to learn how to buy the best falsies

or how to get the best beard cover

or how many pairs of stockings I needed to wear

to hide the hair on my legs.

I wanted to grow my own breasts.

I wanted to get rid of my beard.

And I wanted to shave my legs.

And I wanted to grow my hair out long.

I didn't want a great wig.

So I realized that I have to do something about work.

I had to transition.

That caused a lot of issues with my marriage,

huge number of issues, and rightly so.

I mean, it's a big step.

How do I know Kodak wouldn't fire me?

Because while Lambda network said

they supported transgender people,

there was nothing in their EEO policy

that said anything at all about gender expression and identity

and changing one's sex.

Now, I knew there had been at least one other person

that I was aware of that had changed their gender at Kodak,

worked at the office.

And I never had the guts to sit down and have lunch with her.

I wanted to in the worst way.

But I didn't have the guts to do it,

because people would make jokes about her.

And I worked at Kodak office.

And she'd come by with her tray.

And all the guys at the table would

make these little nasty remarks and stuff.

And I felt very sorry for her.

But I was too much of a coward to do it.

I've talked to her on the phone once or twice.

But I never got to talk to her.

So this was going to be a big, major step.

And how do I go about doing it?

And interestingly enough, my wife and I

had befriended a young transperson

who had a lot of mental issues it turns out.

And she sent a series of faxes to Kodak outing me.

She sent one to the CEO's office, one

to the head of HR's office, one to the employment office.

And the people that got them didn't believe them.

They got all the ones out of like--

I don't know it was Fisher's.

I forget who it might have been Fisher's office at the time.

But they got it back.

And McCarthy's assistant got it, who was the head of HR.

And so I forget the guy's name.

His first name was Jack--

called me in.

We chatted for a bit.

And he said, you know, we got these things.

He said, "do you know this person?"

I said, "Yes.

She's a kind of mentally ill person

that my wife and I tried to help.

And she kind of turned on us."

And I let it go at that.

But I kept my copy.

Because she sent me a copy, too, sent a copy to me and my wife,

also.

You know, they mailed it.

So I kept that copy.

And a couple of years later, I started

using that when I decided, OK, I have my little list,

my little portfolio of pictures of myself dressed up.

And I marched up to the head of Human Resources in his office.

Because the job I had at the time

gave me access to that level of management.

Because I worked for the Vice President of the Latin American

region as his HR Director.

So I did have reason to go see the head of Corporate HR.

And so I sat down.

And I said Mike, remember this thing

that came in a few years ago?

And I said, well, I said there's some parts of this is true.

Now, let me tell you about myself.

So when I started coming out, I came out at that level.

And then Kodak had a major reorganization.

And a lot of people got downgraded.

The jobs got changed.

I was one of the ones that happened to.

And so I went to my boss at that point and said,

"This may be OK.

I guess I can deal with this.

I'm not ready to retire.

I'm not able to retire.

But I'm going to start coming to work as a woman

probably in the next year."

And she was pretty cool about it.

It turns out she went running down the hallway

after I left to see her HR person

and say, "What do I do now?"

But basically, I started telling my coworkers slowly and slowly.

I started going to office parties off-site,

a couple of on-site, but mostly off-site, as Pam.

And I told them one at a time and you know,

I got a pretty good response.

I mean, these were people who were supposed

to be dealing sensitively with all kinds of people

with their problems.

So this was a good group.

And I actually won a door prize one time.

And the assistant head of HR give me a big hug

as I went tripping up there in my skirt.

So Kodak was pretty good about it.

And a couple of my client areas, they

asked me what was going on.

Because they could see that changes were occurring.

I had got my hair permed.

It was growing out.

I stopped wearing suits and ties.

I was dressing more casual, open neck shirts, maybe a sport

coat once in a while, a lot of sweaters.

And I got rid of the shirt and tie.

And so I told them.

And they told me, they said, "Well, we're interested in you

for your advice.

It doesn't really make any difference

what your sex or your gender is or really what you wear.

We value you for the advice and support you

can give us in doing this job."

So that made me feel really, really good.

And it went well.

And because-- I never fully transitioned.

Because that was one of the deals,

the compromises, that my wife and I, Sue and I,

had agreed upon is that as long as we

both worked at Kodak office, I wouldn't fully transition.

Because she was going to have to transition with me.

And it was bad enough that people maybe knew already.

And obviously, people knew about it.

But it would have been different if she

would've seen it every day walking through the halls.

And people would say, "Oh, see that?

That's her husband."

Et cetera, et cetera.

So we made that deal.

Even though people would come into my office

and they'd say, "Pardon me, ma'am,

I'm looking for P. Barres."

And I'd say, "You found her."

Because I was starting to look a little odd in my office.

And I had made arrangements with the nurse's office.

Because I wasn't comfortable in the men's room anymore.

And I knew I would have a tough time trying to use the ladies

room at this point.

And that's always been an issue when

people transition on a job.

Shouldn't be, but it is.

So I was only like a very quick one floor elevator ride

from the nurse's office.

So I made arrangements to use the restroom

up there if I need be.

And then shortly thereafter, there

was a early retirement offer that I

said I'm going to take this and move on with my life.