Video Interview, Pamela Barres, June 6, 2012
- PAMELA BARRES: So do you work for XXI, Brian?
- BRIAN: No.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: He used to.
- BRIAN: I used to.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I actually used to be
- his boss for a very short time.
- BRIAN: Yes, he was.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And that was fun, wasn't it, Brian?
- BRIAN: That was a delight.
- Every day was like Christmas.
- PAMELA BARRES: Oh, yeah.
- I'm sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Pam, just for a microphone check,
- can you give us the correct spelling
- of your first and last name and how you want
- to be identified on screen?
- PAMELA BARRES: Pamela Barres, Pamela, P-A-M-E-L-A. Barres,
- B-A-R-R-E-S. So it's like, you know, if you're going to a bar,
- you go to another bar.
- You go to bars.
- BRIAN: Bars.
- OK.
- PAMELA BARRES: Candy bars.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's start at the beginning
- of your transition.
- When you first started thinking about this for yourself,
- this personal decision that you had to make,
- tell me about that story.
- But then also move it into where were you finding information
- here in Rochester about it?
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- My transition from male to female
- is not that something that happened at one moment.
- I think for all people really it's a journey.
- It's not a moment in time.
- There may be a moment in time when you tell the first person.
- But it may be a long, long time before you
- move beyond that first person.
- I knew that I was different really
- as far back as I can remember.
- And I don't know the exact age, but it was certainly
- I think before I started kindergarten even and maybe
- further back than that.
- But I didn't really know what it was.
- I knew that I wanted to wear the little party
- dresses to birthday parties that some of my girl cousins wore
- and the nice black Mary Jane patent leather shoes.
- But I was told I couldn't do that.
- And so, you know, you kind of go along.
- But it never went away.
- And I know I also learned very early on this
- was not something that you should tell anybody else,
- because it didn't get good results.
- I mean, I wasn't beat up or anything by my parents.
- But it just wasn't a thing you did.
- I'm little boy.
- That's what you are.
- And this is what you wear.
- And this is what you do.
- So I basically built a wall around myself.
- And I kind of moved into a little shell.
- And I got along pretty good.
- I did all the boys things I was supposed to do.
- And I was in a lot of fights.
- I was the smallest kid in school at the time
- and joined the Boy Scouts and, you know, got my merit badges
- and worked at a scout camp.
- But secretly, often, I would wear women's clothing,
- little pieces of underwear-- not little pieces of underwear,
- I was bigger than that--
- under my male clothing.
- Because underneath, I could feel that I really
- was this woman, this girl.
- Even though the outside world didn't see it,
- it made me feel more feminine, I guess,
- more like it seemed right.
- It seemed very right.
- And I actually worked at a scout camp.
- And I would shoplift from in Tupper Lake from an Eisner's
- a pair of panties.
- And I'm not proud of shoplifting, but I did.
- I was too embarrassed to buy--
- and a bra.
- And I would go up in the woods on my day
- off and put these clothes on and put my clothes back on over it.
- And I'd sit under a tree and read.
- And it was not every day, not every day off, but some.
- So that kind of stuff kind of progressed.
- And eventually, my parents found my secret stash of clothes
- one time, my mother did.
- And we used to play chess together, my father and I.
- We never played chess for like twenty years after that night.
- And at the time, I was very serious with the person
- that became my wife.
- And they made me promise that I had to tell her.
- So I got drugged up pretty good.
- And I got her a little drunk.
- And I told her.
- And she was pretty brave about the whole thing.
- And she wasn't sure.
- I didn't know.
- There was no information.
- This was in the early sixties.
- There was no information.
- I used to go to the--
- I don't even know how I got some of the name--
- initial words, I guess.
- But I'd go to the library and look under transportation.
- Because I could find trans--
- transvestite.
- Transsexual wasn't even really coined very much at that point.
- Looking for information in books,
- it was generally bad stuff and abnormal psychology.
- And it didn't make you feel like this
- is something you really wanted to be to be honest with you.
- But Sue decided, let's see what happens.
- She was, as I said, pretty brave.
- And we experimented with me cross-dressing a little bit.
- But I looked like a proverbial truck driver in drag.
- And she laughed at me.
- And I didn't like being laughed at.
- So I just kind of suppressed it.
- And I was going to school.
- She was working.
- So I'd come home sometimes, and I
- could do a few little things being dressed up.
- And it made me feel good.
- But I basically just put it tried to suppress it,
- put it in the background and spent a lot of time drinking.
- That was my release.
- And I got a job with Kodak in New York City,
- a lot of sales jobs.
- And we'd party and had a good time.
- And I was abusing alcohol for a lot
- of years, predominately beer, but other liquor as well.
- And I started having all kinds of stomach problems.
- Eventually, I saw a psychiatrist.
- Because they couldn't find anything really physically
- wrong with me.
- And I told him that I thought maybe I wanted to be a woman.
- And his advice was don't ever do that.
- Suppress it.
- It's great being a guy.
- And so I did.
- And it ended up, I had a daughter.
- I had another daughter.
- I got a job with Kodak back in Rochester
- traveling internationally--
- great job, but it was stressful, traveled all around the world.
- But when you're out five weeks, four weeks at a time,
- away from home, it's stressful.
- And this was I bought a night gown in South Africa.
- I had it gift wrapped.
- And I would carefully every time I'd get there,
- I'd open the gift wrapping carefully.
- And I'd wear it at night.
- And I'd fold it back up, and put it back in a gift
- wrapped package, tape it back up again, put it in my suitcase.
- Figured if I went through customs, it's always--
- I mean, I was paranoid, if anybody found out,
- my world would dissolve, that no one would love me.
- I'd lose everything I got.
- And I would have to kill myself or something.
- So I was very, very afraid.
- And now, when I realized I'm being videotaped here, I get up
- and make talks at colleges, it's like where
- did this person come from?
- How did I get here?
- And so eventually, it was a series of telling more people.
- And in 1988, I'd been seeing a psychiatrist again
- who told me to do nothing about this at all,
- and we'd get cured.
- Well, we weren't being cured.
- It was getting worse and worse and worse.
- I was in my middle forties.
- I shaved off my mustache for my forty-fifth anniversary
- because women did not wear--
- forty-fifth birthday I should say.
- Women don't have mustaches.
- Well, some do.
- But I didn't want to be one that did.
- I am Italian descent, but anyway.
- That probably should not be in the thing.
- And then a couple of months later, my cousin who was
- like a brother to me--
- I was an only child-- died unexpectedly
- on the way to work one morning, dropped over, heart attack.
- I went home from his funeral and called the Medical Society
- here in Rochester, Monroe County,
- and got a name of a therapist that knew something
- about this subject, transsexualism or transvestism.
- I thought I was a transsexual.
- But I didn't know really what it meant exactly.
- And so I saw this person.
- She was very helpful.
- What she did for me was to make me
- realize I had nothing to be ashamed of.
- This is who I am.
- And the question is, how do I live comfortably
- and deal with my life and be the best person I can
- be and be as happy as I can be?
- And I did not want to lose my marriage.
- At that time, I'd probably been married about forty--
- excuse me, twenty-five years, when this was all
- coming to a head between twenty-two, twenty-three,
- twenty-four, twenty-five years.
- And actually, my twenty-fifth wedding anniversary,
- I was convinced that I probably wouldn't have another one,
- that we would fall apart.
- But we didn't.
- And we'll be celebrating our forty-eighth wedding
- anniversary in October.
- So it's been a journey.
- It's been a lot of compromise.
- Things are not perfect.
- But I don't know anyone that's really perfect
- and is always a 100 percent happy all the time.
- But I'm as close as I can get.
- I couldn't be happier that I did this.
- If I could take a pill and say, well, it would go away,
- I wouldn't do it.
- Because I've transitioned, I've met wonderful people.
- I've had great experiences.
- I got myself involved with the GLBT community
- here in Rochester and to some degree on a statewide level.
- And these are experiences I wouldn't
- have had any other way.
- So I'm much happier with myself.
- And my life hasn't fallen apart.
- My marriage hasn't fallen apart.
- I have two great daughters that are supportive.
- So things are good.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Before we get into some of your activism--
- PAMELA BARRES: Is that too bad?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, it's fine.
- PAMELA BARRES: It's OK?
- OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: There's pieces in there
- I've already gotten in my head.
- But one thing came up as you were talking
- that I just wrote down here.
- And I just want your opinion on this.
- Is that stereotype from the heterosexual community
- that gay men all want to be women, really--
- and that can't be farther from the truth.
- PAMELA BARRES: Right.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I mean, what is your opinion on that?
- How do you respond to that stereotype?
- PAMELA BARRES: Do you want me to answer the question?
- Do you want me to set up the question?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Set up the question, yeah.
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- How do I set up the question?
- First of all, when I was going through this process of trying
- to figure out what was going on with me,
- what was wrong with me, one of the things I wondered about
- was, was I gay?
- Did I really want to have sex with men?
- And at the time, I didn't.
- It didn't seem it just didn't seem right to me somehow.
- Not morally, it just wasn't something
- I was really interested in.
- And I tried to put myself in positions
- periodically to see if somebody picked me up, and no one did.
- That was a little disappointing maybe.
- But anyway-- and this idea is that, well, gay men want
- to be women, or if you want to be a woman,
- you must be a gay man.
- And nothing could be further from the truth.
- Because first of all, being transgender
- is about your gender identity.
- It's not so much who you want to have sex,
- who you want to go to bed with.
- It's how you feel internally.
- And if you're a transsexual, you would
- identify as a different gender than what people told you
- you were when you were born.
- If you're a transvestite, you know what your sex is,
- but you have this urge that you have to present yourself
- periodically and in another mode to feel comfortable
- and relaxed.
- And there may even be some kind of a sexual fetish
- to some degree at least initially maybe
- in that motivation.
- But gay men don't want to be women.
- Gay men like men.
- The thing that women don't have is a penis.
- Most gay men are attracted to their penises.
- Most transsexual women don't want to have a penis.
- And that's not something that they're
- interested in depending on their sexual orientation.
- Because the other thing that people get confused about
- is gender identity and sexual orientation, thinking they're
- one and the same, that all trans women
- want to have sex with men.
- There's lots of trans women that identify as lesbian or bi.
- And I identify myself as primarily interested in women.
- Though, I have discovered I probably
- have some bi interest as well, though I'm not acting on it.
- Because I'm in a monogamous relationship.
- But someplace along the line, I think I gave myself permission
- to look at men differently than I did when I was much younger.
- So I don't know where this idea--
- I think in our society, we're so focused on binary.
- You have to be this or that.
- And we ignore all the shades of gray.
- And one of the beauties I have found out
- is that there's just all kinds of different shadings of gray
- between maybe the two black and white extremes.
- And I guess I've always lived my life and looked at it that way.
- I'm not big on absolutes.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I just want to touch a little bit more
- on maybe the frustration that you
- had in the lack of information back
- in those days, you know, at the library,
- not being able to have access to--
- PAMELA BARRES: Right, OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --resources that could
- help you come to terms with what you were feeling at the time.
- PAMELA BARRES: One of the things that
- was a problem when you know you're different,
- and you're going through trying to figure out
- why you're different and what to do about it,
- is getting information that's somewhat factual
- and that you can relate to.
- And I was lucky enough through my therapist
- to be introduced to some other people
- that she was working with who were also trans people.
- And she also put me in touch with some books
- that she suggested I read.
- Conundrum was one of the first books
- that she suggested that I take a look at.
- And through some of the friends I met,
- I got involved with a local support group
- here in Rochester at the time.
- It was called the Transvestites Anonymous,
- which with a name like that was not too anonymous when
- you went up to get the mail from the post office box.
- But anyway, first, they had gone out of existence.
- But they reformed about six, seven months after I
- started seeing my therapist.
- And at the first meeting, we changed our name
- to the CD Network, which was a lot more secretive, I guess,
- than Transvestites Anonymous.
- And that was the only group in town.
- But through that, I got information
- about an organization called the IFGE, International Foundation
- for Gender Education.
- And they had conferences.
- Luckily, I had enough money and my job
- was good enough that allowed me to go
- to a couple of these conferences and to get and subscribe
- to their magazine, which was called the Transgender
- Tapestry.
- And so I got lots of good information there.
- And then I met people all around the country, doctors,
- psychologists, lawyers, ministers, policemen,
- that were like me, or somewhat like me.
- We're all slightly different, but there's
- a lot of commonality.
- And so that's how I got most of my information.
- That was before the internet really.
- And today, there's such a wealth of information out there.
- And it's on television shows.
- And it's talked about.
- I mean, when it used to be on one of these talk shows,
- the word would pass around.
- Everybody had to tune on their television
- that particular afternoon to watch the Sally Jesse Raphael
- Show or whatever it was, even Jerry Springer sometimes,
- which I detest the Jerry Springer Show.
- But that's beside the point.
- But so it was difficult. Today, there's
- maybe almost too much information out there.
- Because you don't know what's the good information
- and what's the bad information.
- And like any minority group, we have
- people that write these long essays about how many angels
- can dance on the head of a pin.
- What's the proper term for us?
- Who's included?
- Who's not included?
- And unfortunately, I think that's not only
- the case in the trans part of the community,
- but it's also the case in the GLBT community.
- Sometimes you spend more time fighting among ourselves
- as to which one of these little organizations is better.
- And we forget the big enemy out there.
- And we need to continue to band together, to be united,
- to get equal rights for all people,
- not just my little group versus your little group.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: It's interesting that you bring that up.
- Because, you know, there is so much talk about--
- as you mentioned, transgender issues
- isn't really a gay issue.
- It's an identity issue.
- But yet, the transgender community
- has become so aligned with the gay and lesbian community
- as part of the overall gay rights movement.
- Why do you think that happened?
- PAMELA BARRES: One of the things that I
- had to fight when I first came out
- was being part of the gay community
- and using that term in its broadest sense.
- And a lot of people, including my therapist,
- who turns out to be lesbian, said "you're not really gay.
- You're not part of this community.
- This is about gender."
- But the thing is, you know, that trans people have always
- been part of the gay community going back
- to the beginning of time, probably before words
- were coined, like homosexual or transvestite or whatever,
- or transsexual certainly.
- And there's probably nothing more gender variant
- to overall society than two men wanting
- to be intimate with each other or two women wanting
- to be intimate with each other.
- I mean, to the straight society today,
- that's gender variant big time.
- A lot of women are much more masculine.
- A lot of men are much more feminine.
- Does that mean they cross-dress, and they want to be the other?
- No.
- But they express their gender different.
- And the thing that people hate, the thing
- that people know about us, is our expression.
- So if you're a very butch woman or a very effeminate man,
- you're going to be picked on.
- Because they don't really know who you're sleeping with
- or care.
- But you're crossing those gender stereotypes.
- So I had a friend, David Kosel.
- And David, while he was always very nice to me
- and very supportive to me, we used
- to have long arguments about why does trans people have to march
- in the gay pride parade.
- Because it's not about sex.
- Well, the other thing is that I kept
- reminding David that for a lot of trans people,
- it is about sex.
- Because they want to have sex with the same people
- that they identify with, the same
- gender that they identify with.
- Does that make them gay?
- Or does that make them straight?
- Were they gay before they had an operation,
- or were they straight after they had the operation?
- So it's a very confusing thing.
- And we've always been a part of it.
- Part of it, I think, the reason that
- in the fifties and the sixties maybe, there was this--
- we have to assimilate.
- We want the same rights.
- Certainly, after Stonewall in '69,
- it was how do we get the straight people to allow us
- into their club?
- And so we'll get rid of these people
- that don't seem to fit the stereotype of being straight.
- So the leather men with the chaps and the flamboyant drag
- queens started less and less showing up
- in gay pride parades.
- Because that was the image that they didn't want to show,
- because that would further separate us
- from what we wanted, which was to be into the club.
- And now unfortunately, a lot of people are in the club.
- But there's still a few of us outside,
- like transgender people, particularly
- in New York State who do not have
- equal rights, who have no nondiscrimination
- rights protecting them.
- And we're having a tough time getting back in.
- We supported marriage equality.
- We supported hate crimes.
- We supported SONDA.
- And yet, gender expression and identity
- is not explicitly mentioned in any of those bills.
- And we have no explicit protections.
- Things are improving.
- But I would hope by the time that people actually
- view this documentary, that the GENDA bill,
- the Gender Expression Nondiscrimination Act
- will be the law in New York State.
- Because we need the support of the Gs, the Bs, and the Ls,
- to make that happen, just like we supported them.
- And it's getting better.
- And it's much, much better.
- I'm on the board of the Empire State Pride Agenda.
- There's two other trans women on the--
- or another trans woman on board with me.
- That organization is very dedicated currently
- to passing the Gender Expression Nondiscrimination
- Act and other civil rights bills that
- will further the life, not only of trans people,
- but of GLBT people together again.
- Until all of us have equal rights, really none of us
- truly have equal rights.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's jump back a little bit.
- PAMELA BARRES: I will get off the soap box.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, that's good.
- I don't want to rush through it, that's all.
- Let's start with your getting involved with Lambda at Kodak.
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because that was really,
- I think for you, the first times that you
- started making efforts of getting transgender language
- included--
- PAMELA BARRES: Absolutely.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --in social change and corporate change.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just start there,
- getting involved in Lambda and how
- that I think for you personally--
- PAMELA BARRES: Give me a date, would you?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't know when that--
- PAMELA BARRES: The first Pride parade
- I went to is when the AIDS Garden had been dedicated.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That would be '93.
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- That would be about right.
- Yeah.
- That would probably be about right.
- OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, yeah, talk to me
- about getting involved with Lambda and not only
- what you were finding there, but that it was also doing for you
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: personally in your journey.
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- I'm going to set it up this way.
- In the early 1990s, '91, '92, I started
- going to Syracuse a lot.
- Because I could go to Syracuse, go to the bars, go to groups,
- dress up.
- And no one would--
- I wouldn't run into my aunts or other people
- that I work with and knew me.
- And so it was a good place for me to go.
- And I started marching.
- I marched in a couple of the Syracuse Pride parades.
- But I never had the guts to march in the Rochester Pride
- parade.
- I think it was 1993 that for some reason
- I decided to go as Pamela with a friend of mine,
- another transwoman.
- And go to the Pride parade here in Rochester,
- which started on Highland Avenue near the AIDS Garden.
- I remember there was, I guess, a dedication to it.
- And so I joined the Kodak because I didn't know anybody.
- But there was a Kodak contingent.
- I think it said Lambda.
- And I started marching and brought my friend
- with me, who didn't work for Kodak.
- And we were marching with this contingent.
- And I talked to a guy who introduced himself a David.
- And we're marching along.
- Because I chat a bit.
- And we were chatting.
- And he mentioned that there was this group at Kodak.
- You know, what did I do?
- And I told him I was in human resources at the time.
- And you know to come to one of our meetings.
- So I'm not sure exactly how many meetings, how many weeks
- or months passed, but I did.
- I remember going to a meeting.
- And my office was up on the at this point,
- I guess it was 1994 that I actually
- went to my first meeting.
- Because my office was right outside the conference room
- that they met in.
- And so I met after.
- I think the meeting started at five or something like that.
- And I sat as far away from the door in that conference room
- as I could, so no one would walk by and see me in there.
- And it seemed like a good group of people.
- I liked them.
- And I think I went out and had a beer or something with David
- afterwards.
- And we talked.
- And I got to know him a little bit.
- And I got more and more involved in Lambda.
- And I was on the planning committee
- for the first management event that Lambda had.
- And therefore, I got more involved.
- And I was a human resource person.
- So also, it was a good cover, because we were promoting
- networks at Kodak at that time.
- They had the Hispanic network and the black network.
- I think there was North Star and Lambda.
- And you know, it was a big thing for Kodak.
- Kay Whitmore was the CEO.
- He was a Mormon, but he seemed to be
- very supportiveas Mormons can be as supportive as a Mormon could
- be perhaps.
- And he was a decent man, Kay Whitmore.
- So we were gonna have.
- And then Kay left.
- And George Fisher came in all about the time
- when we were planning the first network event.
- And so I got very involved in that.
- And I was the table captain.
- And we had a representative from management.
- And I was the only person at the table
- that would admit that they were a member of Lambda.
- And I was in my three piece male business suit.
- But I was in HR, and so it was cool.
- And I hadn't told anybody.
- You know, none of my management knew or anything like that.
- But that's how I first got involved.
- And I met Emily Jones, Kathryn Rivers, David Kosel.
- And it was a good organization.
- And I got on the Board of Directors.
- They invited me to be on the Board of Directors.
- And we were doing some reorganization.
- So you know, I said, well, I've always considered myself
- a part of the gay community.
- Ever since I've come out, I felt very comfortable.
- It's sometimes nice to have my part of the gay community
- spelled out when we're talking about what we're working for.
- So I suggest they put gender expression and identity
- into the bylaws, which I guess were coming up
- for a general review.
- We were rewriting the mission and that kind of stuff.
- And so it was put to a vote of the membership of Lambda.
- And I had no idea what you had to do to be a member of Lambda.
- I don't remember if there were dues.
- You had a sign up, I think, or say something.
- And it wasn't 100%, but it was a substantial number of people
- that agreed that that's how that would happen,
- that we would put gender expression and identity
- or the word transgender-- at this point,
- I don't remember which one it was--
- into the bylaws.
- And I felt great about that.
- That was something I feel that I accomplished.
- And then when I started to transition at Kodak,
- that was one of the things that I
- could use to help me transition when
- I was talking with my management and my coworkers, which
- I did for quite a while one at a time.
- I'd have like an hour conversation with them.
- After I did that for three or four people,
- it gradually got down to like the two minute, "Hey,
- by the way, you think I'm a male,
- but I'm actually a female.
- Hi."
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
- Let's not rush through this.
- I want to first ask you about, from your point, how
- significant it was to get gender identity language
- or transgender language into a corporate I mean,
- I realize it's just the Lambda network.
- But it's with a Fortune 500 company
- that this is happening within.
- You know, I mean, that was kind of groundbreaking.
- PAMELA BARRES: You know, I guess,
- I've been asked did I think this was a big deal that we
- had this done.
- Because there weren't all that many companies that did
- have words, either transgender or gender expression
- and identity, in their EEO policy.
- There were a few.
- I think IBM was quite an early leader.
- GE was an early leader.
- But to be honest with you, I never
- really thought about that significance of it
- as it came to Kodak.
- I was more interested in trying to get
- myself to feel more comfortable and to feel more included.
- So I was looking for more inclusivity
- and a part of Lambda.
- And I thought that having the words transgender let's
- just use that word, because I'm not sure what the word actually
- was included would show us to be more open and supportive.
- But make me feel better once in a while to hear it.
- Not just to talk about gay and lesbians,
- but to talk about gay, lesbian, bisexual,
- and transgender, or GLBT as it eventually became shortened to.
- So I never really thought about the significance of it
- as, wow, this was a Fortune 500 company making this big change.
- Because to me, it didn't seem like a big change.
- It seemed like it was just an oversight of what always should
- have been there to begin with.
- Because we've always been part of it.
- And I just didn't see the need not to.
- Now, I have no problem talking about the gay community.
- Because it's a big mouthful always
- having to talk about gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender,
- or spelling it out every single time, or talking about GLBT.
- But you know, I know lesbians don't
- like to always have the word gay used
- and never be have lesbian being used.
- So we all have our little thing where
- we like to be a little more comfortable.
- But generally, we're one big community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So talk to me again
- PAMELA BARRES: Sorry, I can't do better than that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, that's OK--
- a little bit about this whole coming out experience for you,
- coming out in the sense of transgender
- coming out in the workplace.
- You touched upon it a little bit.
- But I can't imagine it was always a bed of roses.
- PAMELA BARRES: Once I was comfortable socially
- going to conferences and conventions
- and going to the bars, the problem
- was I was working as a guy.
- And I felt less and less like a guy.
- And initially, I thought I could pull this off
- by trying to be a cross-dresser and, you know,
- dressing on weekends periodically,
- but living my life basically as a guy.
- But that was not working for me, because that's not who I was.
- I would go to these conferences.
- And they would have the transsexual track
- and the cross-dressing track.
- And I quickly learned that I really
- didn't want to learn how to buy the best falsies
- or how to get the best beard cover
- or how many pairs of stockings I needed to wear
- to hide the hair on my legs.
- I wanted to grow my own breasts.
- I wanted to get rid of my beard.
- And I wanted to shave my legs.
- And I wanted to grow my hair out long.
- I didn't want a great wig.
- So I realized that I have to do something about work.
- I had to transition.
- That caused a lot of issues with my marriage,
- huge number of issues, and rightly so.
- I mean, it's a big step.
- How do I know Kodak wouldn't fire me?
- Because while Lambda network said
- they supported transgender people,
- there was nothing in their EEO policy
- that said anything at all about gender expression and identity
- and changing one's sex.
- Now, I knew there had been at least one other person
- that I was aware of that had changed their gender at Kodak,
- worked at the office.
- And I never had the guts to sit down and have lunch with her.
- I wanted to in the worst way.
- But I didn't have the guts to do it,
- because people would make jokes about her.
- And I worked at Kodak office.
- And she'd come by with her tray.
- And all the guys at the table would
- make these little nasty remarks and stuff.
- And I felt very sorry for her.
- But I was too much of a coward to do it.
- I've talked to her on the phone once or twice.
- But I never got to talk to her.
- So this was going to be a big, major step.
- And how do I go about doing it?
- And interestingly enough, my wife and I
- had befriended a young transperson
- who had a lot of mental issues it turns out.
- And she sent a series of faxes to Kodak outing me.
- She sent one to the CEO's office, one
- to the head of HR's office, one to the employment office.
- And the people that got them didn't believe them.
- They got all the ones out of like--
- I don't know it was Fisher's.
- I forget who it might have been Fisher's office at the time.
- But they got it back.
- And McCarthy's assistant got it, who was the head of HR.
- And so I forget the guy's name.
- His first name was Jack--
- called me in.
- We chatted for a bit.
- And he said, you know, we got these things.
- He said, "do you know this person?"
- I said, "Yes.
- She's a kind of mentally ill person
- that my wife and I tried to help.
- And she kind of turned on us."
- And I let it go at that.
- But I kept my copy.
- Because she sent me a copy, too, sent a copy to me and my wife,
- also.
- You know, they mailed it.
- So I kept that copy.
- And a couple of years later, I started
- using that when I decided, OK, I have my little list,
- my little portfolio of pictures of myself dressed up.
- And I marched up to the head of Human Resources in his office.
- Because the job I had at the time
- gave me access to that level of management.
- Because I worked for the Vice President of the Latin American
- region as his HR Director.
- So I did have reason to go see the head of Corporate HR.
- And so I sat down.
- And I said Mike, remember this thing
- that came in a few years ago?
- And I said, well, I said there's some parts of this is true.
- Now, let me tell you about myself.
- So when I started coming out, I came out at that level.
- And then Kodak had a major reorganization.
- And a lot of people got downgraded.
- The jobs got changed.
- I was one of the ones that happened to.
- And so I went to my boss at that point and said,
- "This may be OK.
- I guess I can deal with this.
- I'm not ready to retire.
- I'm not able to retire.
- But I'm going to start coming to work as a woman
- probably in the next year."
- And she was pretty cool about it.
- It turns out she went running down the hallway
- after I left to see her HR person
- and say, "What do I do now?"
- But basically, I started telling my coworkers slowly and slowly.
- I started going to office parties off-site,
- a couple of on-site, but mostly off-site, as Pam.
- And I told them one at a time and you know,
- I got a pretty good response.
- I mean, these were people who were supposed
- to be dealing sensitively with all kinds of people
- with their problems.
- So this was a good group.
- And I actually won a door prize one time.
- And the assistant head of HR give me a big hug
- as I went tripping up there in my skirt.
- So Kodak was pretty good about it.
- And a couple of my client areas, they
- asked me what was going on.
- Because they could see that changes were occurring.
- I had got my hair permed.
- It was growing out.
- I stopped wearing suits and ties.
- I was dressing more casual, open neck shirts, maybe a sport
- coat once in a while, a lot of sweaters.
- And I got rid of the shirt and tie.
- And so I told them.
- And they told me, they said, "Well, we're interested in you
- for your advice.
- It doesn't really make any difference
- what your sex or your gender is or really what you wear.
- We value you for the advice and support you
- can give us in doing this job."
- So that made me feel really, really good.
- And it went well.
- And because-- I never fully transitioned.
- Because that was one of the deals,
- the compromises, that my wife and I, Sue and I,
- had agreed upon is that as long as we
- both worked at Kodak office, I wouldn't fully transition.
- Because she was going to have to transition with me.
- And it was bad enough that people maybe knew already.
- And obviously, people knew about it.
- But it would have been different if she
- would've seen it every day walking through the halls.
- And people would say, "Oh, see that?
- That's her husband."
- Et cetera, et cetera.
- So we made that deal.
- Even though people would come into my office
- and they'd say, "Pardon me, ma'am,
- I'm looking for P. Barres."
- And I'd say, "You found her."
- Because I was starting to look a little odd in my office.
- And I had made arrangements with the nurse's office.
- Because I wasn't comfortable in the men's room anymore.
- And I knew I would have a tough time trying to use the ladies
- room at this point.
- And that's always been an issue when
- people transition on a job.
- Shouldn't be, but it is.
- So I was only like a very quick one floor elevator ride
- from the nurse's office.
- So I made arrangements to use the restroom
- up there if I need be.
- And then shortly thereafter, there
- was a early retirement offer that I
- said I'm going to take this and move on with my life.
- And then I can transition as I wish.
- And that's what happened.
- But I had a good experience at Kodak.
- And I know that I helped other people transition.
- Because my assistant became very, very helpful
- to a couple of other people in my client groups
- that did transition.
- And I helped get the policy at Kodak
- changed to actually include gender expression and identity
- in their EEO policy.
- So those are two things that I'm quite proud of,
- both the Lambda thing, which at the time
- I didn't really understand the full significance of it.
- But certainly, getting gender expression and identity
- which did not happen while I was there, but shortly thereafter,
- into their EEO policy was something
- that I think I helped make happen.
- And I'm proud of to do that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: A couple quick things here on some people.
- Talk to me about the David Kosel, the kind of person
- he was, the significance of his contributions to Lambda
- and the corporate environment for gays and lesbians.
- PAMELA BARRES: David Kosel was a person that I, unfortunately,
- have lost touch with.
- But David was a great friend and a great guy.
- And I would say my life was certainly better,
- because I got to know David Kosel.
- First time I met him was when I said, I think,
- earlier that I marched with him in the Pride parade.
- And David threw great parties.
- He had tremendous energy.
- He was just a person who was so enthusiastic
- that you couldn't help but want to help him do a great job.
- And he had great ideas.
- And David maybe wasn't the most organized person always
- in the world, but he always had all those balls up in the air.
- And they never really hit the ground.
- Somehow he could juggle things and get people to do things.
- And I know he was the Chairperson for the Out
- and Equal Conference, the first of Out
- and Equal Conference here in Rochester.
- I think that was in '98, 1998.
- And I went to the organizational meeting
- with a bunch of other people.
- I don't know if there was--
- I think there was like twelve, fifteen people in the room.
- I'm not sure.
- And so we went around the table.
- And we all introduced ourselves, who we were, what did we do,
- and why were we here.
- And if it wasn't everybody, there may have been one person
- in that room that didn't say the reason I'm here is
- because I'm a friend of David Kosel's.
- And he was that type of a leader, kind
- of a natural person that you said, I love this guy.
- And that's why I'm going to work with him.
- And he had such what's the word I'm looking for?
- Bravery, I guess.
- He would approach anybody and talk to them.
- He was out.
- And he was happy being out.
- And he wasn't ashamed of himself and didn't think anybody else
- should be ashamed of himself.
- And what do you mean you're not accepting us?
- Of course, we belong here.
- And of course, we have the right to do this.
- And of course, you're going to do this for us.
- And David pulled it off and pulled off a lot of things.
- And he was just a nice, nice guy and a lot of fun.
- And it took David a long time, I think,
- to come to grips-- not to come to grips with,
- but to really understand that transpeople
- were part of his community.
- But I think largely he has.
- He did come around.
- And certainly, him and I have always
- had a good relationship and friends.
- And I have the utmost respect for David.
- And I hope he's doing very, very well.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: He'll be up here some time this summer.
- Talk to me about Emily Jones.
- PAMELA BARRES: OK.
- Another person that was very, very, very much
- involved in running Lambda and getting Lambda started along
- with David and Kathryn Rivers, I guess, was Emily Jones.
- I never got to know Emily very, very well.
- Emily almost scares me that she is so efficient and organized.
- And I'm just like the opposite of that, I guess--
- a very smart woman, a very caring woman,
- a woman with tremendous energy, a woman
- who I think any organization that she's a member of,
- that organization is probably going to be successful.
- Particularly an organization she takes any kind
- of a leadership role in.
- She knows how to get things done.
- She has contacts that other people don't have.
- She's able to look at the need and pinpoint
- what needs to be done to fulfill that need
- and has a way of having it happen.
- She works with other people.
- And she moves other people around.
- So Emily as I said, we've never been best friends or anything
- like that.
- We run in different circles.
- But we seem to show up in the same places a lot.
- And she's always been, I think, understanding
- and interested in trans in supporting transgender
- people and the subject itself.
- And I have nothing but good things to say about Emily.
- But we've never been good friends.
- But she's a great resource for Rochester
- and, actually, the whole country as far
- as GLBT issues are concerned.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move a little forward,
- you getting involved with GAGV.
- Again, did you start up some transgender groups,
- or were they already in existence?
- I don't know.
- PAMELA BARRES: In the mid-nineties,
- the group the CD Network was a group that had both transgender
- people--
- excuse me, transsexual people, people identified
- as transsexual or very gender variant people,
- as well as cross-dressers.
- And somehow that was creating tension in the organization.
- A lot of the wives of the cross-dressers
- were very afraid that somehow the transsexual people would
- somehow infect their husbands.
- And their husbands would want to become transsexuals, too,
- which obviously doesn't happen.
- You either are or you aren't.
- But so my marriage had gone through some rough times.
- We had split up for a while.
- And I was house sitting for someone.
- So I started having parties where
- I invited the people that kind identified as transsexuals
- to come.
- And we kind of split off from the general CD Network.
- Eventually, a person, a transwoman
- about two years later by the name of Perette Barella
- formed a group called the Rochester Transgender
- Organization.
- And I think after the second or third month,
- I started attending those meetings.
- And we met at the Gay Alliance of Genesee Valley
- on Elton Street, which I had not been overly involved
- with at that point at all.
- In fact, I don't think I had been involved with them at all
- up until that point.
- And I got to know Tanya Smolinsky who was the program
- director at the time.
- And we talked a lot about different things
- about what trans is all about and that kind of stuff.
- And I took over the leadership of this Rochester Transgendered
- excuse me, the Rochester Transgendered Organization.
- And we change the name from organization
- to group, because there was nothing organized about us.
- And so she thought I should, you know, get on the board of GAGV.
- And I guess she recommended me to the members of the board.
- And so they invited me to get on the board.
- And I did.
- And I became eventually on the Board of Directors
- of the Gay Alliance--
- excuse me, let me stop for a second.
- I got myself all (unintelligible).
- After I got on the board for a year or two--
- I had to be elected.
- And that seemed to go fine.
- And then I got on the executive committee and at one point
- was the Finance Director for the Board for the Gay Alliance.
- And we needed to make a change in our executive director
- level.
- And prior to that, however, I want to just touch
- on one other thing.
- After I was on the board, about the same time
- we decided to hire our first executive director,
- about a year after I got on the board I believe it was,
- we had got a grant from the State
- of New York that allowed us to hire a full-time paid executive
- director.
- In the process of doing that, we reorganized.
- We did all of our mission statement over again
- and, you know, all of those things that you do.
- And we rewrote our bylaws.
- And I suggested at that point, like I had done with Lambda,
- that it was time to add gender expression
- and identity into the bylaws.
- And I know Ellen Yacknin and Harry Bronson were both also
- on the Board at that point.
- Harry might have been--
- or Ellen or Kim Brumber, one of those folks
- were, in fact, the President of the Board.
- And this was, I think, unanimously agreed
- to that, yes, this was the right thing to do.
- And so the GAGV became not just a gay and lesbian organization,
- but a gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender organization.
- And that was added to the bylaws.
- Once we made a change about two Executive Directors down,
- we ended up terminating the Executive Director of the Gay
- Alliance at that time.
- We needed an interim Executive Director.
- And I had recently retired.
- And somehow it seemed like my career, my skill set,
- seemed to fit the need at the moment,
- or I get the short straw.
- One is never sure how that works out.
- But I was asked if I would be the interim Executive Director.
- And I took it.
- I'm happy I did.
- It was a great experience.
- I was there for nine months.
- The organization was falling apart.
- The morale of the staff at that point was at a low.
- We had lost a couple of valuable employees.
- Our finances were in a little bit of a shambles.
- And I took over.
- And the second day I was there, the only person that
- had any idea how any of the systems works
- came into my office and said he was leaving.
- Nothing that I said "How could you hate me yet?
- I've only been here a day."
- He said, "But I already had the job lined up,
- and the offer came through."
- So we then had the blind literally leading the blind.
- In 2002, in June when I took over,
- it turns out that we had the picnic coming up.
- And no one had got the license to allow us to serve
- legal beverages at the picnic.
- That would have been a real problem.
- There was a lot of frantic phone calls and almost a drive
- to Buffalo to get the license.
- But that finally arrived, I think,
- the day before the picnic was to start.
- I couldn't pay any bills unless I checked with the bank
- first to make sure we had enough cash at that particular moment
- to come in.
- And then the picnic came in.
- And we're counting money.
- And wow, we had enough money to pay the bills for the picnic.
- And it was an amazing time.
- And I loved the job, absolutely, dearly loved the job.
- I never worked so hard in my life, spent so many hours
- in the office.
- And I was making at least half I was making, yeah,
- half my salary at Kodak and working probably twice as
- long for it.
- But it was a great job.
- I had no social life other than the Gay Alliance.
- And my spouse wasn't overly thrilled
- with the hours I was putting in.
- But it was super.
- And for me, it was the biggest growth experience
- I'd had probably in a lot, a lot of years.
- Because you know, I was out.
- But I wasn't necessarily 100% out to everyone.
- I'd still go to family picnics kind of pretty androgynously.
- But if you're interviewed on TV once or twice
- and you're quoted in a newspaper a couple of times,
- there's no way possible to be the Executive
- Director of the Gay Alliance interim
- or permanent without being out to everyone.
- And so, I blossomed.
- I think, personally, I felt that I learned
- so much from the other women.
- I learned what being a woman is about.
- It's not about fancy makeup.
- It's not about high heeled shoes.
- It's about being who you are and being true to yourself.
- And you can be a great woman.
- And you don't have to look like a model and a fashion
- plate every day of the week.
- And I never have since, never sure I did before.
- But I definitely haven't since.
- I use it as shorthand to say, I learned
- about comfortable shoes.
- And that's obviously the small part of it.
- But it was a great experience for me.
- And I'm proud of what I was able to accomplish.
- Not only did I put the organization morale-wise
- for the nine months I was there in a much better position,
- the staff, we had fun again.
- It was a pleasant place to work.
- And I left with a balanced budget
- and left with two hundred thousand dollars in the bank.
- So I think I did my job.
- And while we were there, New York State Legislature
- passed the SONDA bill in December of 2002.
- And I was interviewed in the newspaper
- and on television about that.
- And I was very happy for it.
- But I said, there's part of our organization,
- part of our community, that's still been left out.
- And you've done nothing for gender expression and identity.
- And that was in 2002.
- As we record this, it's 2012, ten years later.
- And I would put lots of money on it's not
- going to happen in 2012.
- But I do hope strongly it will happen in 2013.
- Did I cover enough?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: You did.
- I just got two brief questions here.
- And you may have an answer for this, and you may not.
- But
- PAMELA BARRES: I can make one up, can't I?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, you can make one up.
- PAMELA BARRES: What do you think I'm doing?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: When you look at the history
- of the gay community throughout the decades,
- Rochester has always had a key place
- within the social activism and gay rights.
- We've always been at the forefront.
- From your point of view, what does that
- say about Rochester, of who we are
- in this community and the way this community has stepped up
- for gay rights and transgender issues?
- PAMELA BARRES: People ask me where I'm from.
- And I tell him I'm from Rochester, New York.
- And interestingly in our community, a lot of people
- know about Rochester, New York.
- And they have a very positive opinion of Rochester.
- And I don't know if it's something in the water
- or what it is.
- But this is a good place to be gay.
- It's a good place to be GLBT in Rochester, and more so
- than some of the other cities in New York State like Syracuse
- and Buffalo.
- And I think part of it is that we've always had an educated
- workforce in Rochester.
- We've always had good education in Rochester.
- While there are certainly factory jobs
- at all the corporations in Rochester, a lot of them
- require some skill, required maybe more education
- than just putting widgets in a box on an assembly line
- someplace else.
- And we also have a history in Rochester
- of being a leader going back into the 1800s, women's rights.
- Susan B. Anthony, obviously, was a huge part
- in the Women's Suffrage Movement here in Rochester and also
- the areas a little bit to the south and east of here
- down to Seneca Falls and Auburn and stuff.
- So the Abolitionist Movement was very strong here
- Frederick Douglass published his paper here.
- So Rochester has always had kind of a social conscience,
- I guess, for want of another word.
- It's also been kind of a standoffish city
- in many respects.
- There used to be a book called Smugtown, USA.
- But we were prosperous.
- We had George Eastman, who was a great philanthropist.
- No matter what you think of George Eastman and some
- of his criminalistic policies, he
- was a tremendous humanitarian and philanthropist
- in what he funded, great hospitals, great Eastman
- theater, Eastman School of Music, dental clinics,
- money he gave to all kinds of educational needs.
- And he provided a comfortable setting for his employees
- to work in from a security standpoint.
- They made good salaries.
- Rochester products, Delco, the General Motors facility,
- affiliates did very, very well here.
- Xerox came up, became a major, major player.
- Bausch and Lomb had been here for a long time.
- So people were not economically depressed
- too often in Rochester.
- And I think if you're not struggling
- to look for where your next meal is coming from,
- you're not necessarily worried about losing your job,
- you can become a little bit more progressive
- in your points of view.
- Sure we had a lot of Republicans.
- But they weren't the type of Republicans
- we're talking about today.
- We were talking about smaller versus bigger government.
- But socially, this has always been a good place.
- So I'm not sure exactly why Rochester has been so open.
- But it has been.
- And there were Italian immigrants.
- There were German immigrants.
- There were Irish immigrants.
- And they kind of melded together in Rochester.
- And maybe some of it was there was
- a large Catholic population, which in some degrees
- can be even more progressive socially in some areas.
- Not necessarily on the subject of homosexuality,
- but generally.
- And so there's maybe somewhat of a liberal atmosphere
- in the Rochester area that has played into this acceptance.
- And I think that higher educational level that
- maybe is higher than some of the surrounding cities
- have helped make this atmosphere available.
- But other than that, I guess I'm as much of--
- what's the word I'm looking for--
- I have no idea what the word I'm looking for is.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No, it's all right.
- Because the last question is--
- PAMELA BARRES: Do you agree with that, by the way?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I do.
- I think it has to do with back like Eastman and Carlson
- and Xerox and trying to make this the best city
- to attract the best workers.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yeah.
- Yeah, yeah.
- That's good.
- I forgot that part of it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Future generations looking back
- at our history, what do you want them to know about who
- Pam Barres was and your contributions to making
- this a better place for LGBT people?
- PAMELA BARRES: When I think back about what
- I've done over the years since I've been involved
- in this community, and I was basically a latecomer
- to the community.
- I didn't get involved with this community until my forties.
- And I'm now almost seventy.
- I will be seventy this year.
- So it's been a interesting journey for me,
- a very interesting journey.
- And the thing I'm proudest of is that I've never considered
- myself to be a trans activist.
- I've considered myself to be a GLBT activist, an activist
- for the whole community.
- And hence, I was very happy to be part of the Lambda network.
- I was very happy to be part of the GAGV
- prior to them including gender expression
- and identity into their EEO policies or their--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Mission statement.
- PAMELA BARRES: --mission statements,
- thank you, into their mission statements.
- Because I strongly believe we're all one community.
- So I'm very happy about that.
- I'm happy I got involved with the Empire State Pride Agenda.
- Which, you know, it took them a long time
- to also come around to having a EEO--
- or excuse me, mission statements that include gender expression
- and identity.
- But they did.
- They did.
- And I think I was a part of having that happen.
- I think I set an example of someone that can be trusted,
- someone that's honest, that's hard working,
- and tries to do their part, and someone you can count on.
- If you ask them to do something, I generally
- try very hard to do it.
- I think it was my Boy Scout training.
- I once said being in Boy Scouts helped me
- make me the woman I am today.
- which I did not mean that as a joke actually.
- But I think the person that heard it thought it was a joke.
- But it was true.
- So I'm proudest of the accomplishments
- I've made of I was an example of a trans person that's
- part of the community and is looking
- at the welfare of the overall community as a whole.
- And I'm proudest of the specific things
- I've done to be able to get the words gender
- expression and identity into some of the mission statements.
- Because it helps.
- It's like passing a non-discrimination law.
- It doesn't end discrimination, but it's
- a step in the right direction.
- When it's written down someplace,
- somehow it carries more weight than that it's just assumed.
- So those are the things that I think
- I want people to know about me.
- And I've had a great time.
- This is my home.
- This is my family.
- This community means a great deal to me.
- And I'm happy I did it in Rochester very, very much so.
- And I'm happy that I can be an example that you
- can live your life, maintain your life, you can be yourself,
- come out, transition.
- And you don't have to be afraid.
- And you know, it doesn't mean you got to lose everything.
- Things work out very, very well.
- And it's only getting better as we progress
- and as the society becomes more and more accepting
- of people that are different.
- And if we don't come out, and if we
- don't tell people about who we are, things will never improve.
- Because they won't know we're there.
- So I say, you know, come out.
- It's great out here.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The water's fine.
- PAMELA BARRES: Yup.
- That's it.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: They have a merit badge for transgenders
- now, right, for Boy Scouts?
- PAMELA BARRES: I have no fucking idea.
- I doubt it.
- There was a guy from the Otetiana Council.
- We were going around when Gay Alliance was
- working with the Council, trying to get
- him to become less homophobic.
- And so we went around the room.
- And the President of their Council and their CEO
- or their President, whoever it was, the President and their ED
- were there and a bunch of other people.
- And I said, well, you know, I worked at Camp Massawepie.
- And I got my twenty-one merit badges
- to be an Eagle, even though I never got the award itself.
- And I said, you know, Boy Scouts are great.
- I said, you know, being in the Scouts helped
- make me the woman I am today.
- And I thought the guy was going to fall over.