Video Interview, Ralph Carter, October 20, 2012
- KEVIN INDOVINO: The first thing we need is for you to,
- on camera, just give me the correct spelling
- of your first and last name, how you want it actually
- displayed on screen.
- RALPH CARTER: OK.
- My name is Ralph Carter.
- R-A-L-P-H. C-A-R-T-E-R.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And a title for you?
- If we would give you a title, what would it be?
- RALPH CARTER: I have a couple of different hats.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Give us both, because I might actually just
- put both of them on.
- RALPH CARTER: Well, I'm an engineer at Xerox Corporation
- and I'm an elder and member of Third Presbyterian
- Church, Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's just kind of start out a little
- generally here.
- We'll focus on the church right now,
- and we'll get to corporate leader.
- You've been a member of Third Presbyterian church since 1979.
- Talk to me about where the church was at in the 1970s in
- regards to the gay community, and in
- regards to having gay parishioners in their church,
- and how they were recognizing them, or not recognizing them.
- What was the church like that you first stepped into?
- RALPH CARTER: Well, I moved to Rochester in the summer of 1979
- after attending Georgia Tech in Atlanta, Georgia.
- While I was in college I was trying
- to determine whether or not, as a gay Christian,
- whether I could integrate my sexuality and my spirituality.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, hold that thought.
- And stop rolling for a second.
- Because I just realized something.
- (pause in recording)
- Let's go back to that, just kind of talk to me about the church,
- and particularly as a gay man, coming into the church
- environment back in the late seventies.
- RALPH CARTER: I moved to Rochester in 1979
- to accept a job at Xerox Corporation.
- I grew up in Shipley, Florida, and went to Georgia Tech
- in Atlanta, Georgia.
- While in college, as I was finding myself and starting
- to come out, church had always been an important part
- of my life, because it was a place where I could be myself,
- and a place where I could ask questions and explore
- the spiritual side of my life.
- But as I came out, I began to wonder,
- can I be myself as a gay man in the church?
- I explored that a little bit in Atlanta.
- There was a Metropolitan Community Church.
- And I remember going to a Bible study group
- where they were speaking positively about gay people.
- And I had a really hard time with that,
- because my internal tapes as a kid
- told me that you can't be gay and be Christian.
- So when I moved to Rochester on my own,
- didn't know anybody in town, that
- was a question in the back of my mind.
- Should I completely reject the church as a gay man,
- or is there a place for me in the church?
- And I think that's true for a lot of people.
- Very early on I saw the Empty Closet,
- and there was a little advertisement.
- There were two ads that I saw, one
- for Dignity Integrity, which met at then
- St. Luke Episcopal Church on Fitzhugh street.
- It met on Sunday evenings.
- So I started going to Dignity Integrity
- And then I also had seen an ad for Presbyterians
- for Gay Concerns, which soon became Presbyterians
- for Lesbian and Gay Concerns, the chapter in Rochester that
- met for a monthly potluck supper.
- So I went to both events.
- So a lot of my friends actually today,
- my oldest and dearest friends, are from the Dignity Integrity
- weekly gatherings.
- So those gatherings really became like a safety net for me
- as I began to explore congregations.
- And so I went to several churches
- that summer of 1979, several Presbyterian churches,
- and I happened upon Third Presbyterian Church
- where Ted Hollenbach, who I didn't
- know at the time was openly gay in many circles,
- was the organist and choirmaster.
- And I really liked the music, and I liked the preaching,
- and it was a large church, and so
- I joined that congregation on that basis.
- Meanwhile, within Dignity Integrity in the fall of 1980,
- I met my current partner Van.
- Van Zandten, in October of 1980.
- So this year is actually our thirty-second anniversary.
- And he was starting to attend Calvary St. Andrew's Parish,
- which was a at that time combined Episcopal Presbyterian
- congregation in the south wedge.
- That church was already formally open and accepting
- of gay and lesbian people, and then eventually of transgender
- and bisexual people.
- But I hadn't discovered them until after Van and I met.
- So I felt, in some ways, moving to Rochester,
- I felt like I was coming into the middle
- of a movie at that time.
- Because for the Presbyterians in the mid-seventies,
- there was a lot of national discussion going on
- about how and whether gay and lesbian people
- could be members of the church.
- And some of that leadership of that national conversation was
- facilitated by a member of the downtown Presbyterian church,
- just down the street from Fitzhugh, on Fitzhugh street,
- Downtown United Presbyterian Church, the member
- Virginia West Davidson--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's pull it back a little bit, let's
- not rush through this.
- Let me first pull it back, again, coming to Rochester.
- Your first impressions, or those first feelings of realizing you
- were coming into a community that
- has these congregations that are actually
- starting the conversation.
- Or they've already gone beyond conversation
- and are starting to accept gays and lesbians,
- being more vocally, more visible with them.
- What were your first thoughts on what you were finding here
- in Rochester?
- RALPH CARTER: You know, as I began to explore congregations
- in Rochester I came to understand that rather
- than being something that was not spoken of, that there were
- a number of congregations they were actually starting to have
- adult education programs that began speaking out on behalf
- of and with gay and lesbian members
- of the community, many of whom were actually
- members of their congregations.
- So it was quite a surprise for me,
- because I grew up south of the Mason-Dixon line
- where you didn't talk about these things.
- And so it was really refreshing.
- And it was really only later that I
- came to realize that the conversation about civil rights
- and the place of gay and lesbian people
- as a minority group within the community
- was continuing a long tradition of Rochester
- and upstate New York, with Susan B.
- Anthony as a contemporary of Frederick Douglass, you know,
- on women's rights and anti-slavery efforts,
- and the similarities between the two.
- Following then to Walter Rauschenbusch who
- was a faculty member of what was then Rochester Seminary when
- it was on Alexander Street, and is now on Goodman
- as Colgate Rochester Crosier Divinity
- School, who became the voice against the rise
- of fundamentalism around the country.
- So Rochester has got a rich tradition
- for civil rights advocacy.
- And so as I came to know gays and lesbians who were a part
- of the '69 Stonewall, bringing all of that energy back
- to Rochester, we were part of that whole nascent effort
- of finding ourselves as a gay and lesbian community.
- So this is continuing a longstanding tradition.
- So even though Rochester may look
- very staid and conservative, it sets
- this deep, rich undercurrent of radical nature.
- Radical in the best sense of the word, radical as in rooted.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move forward a little bit then.
- You became a member of the Third Presbyterian Church,
- and you found a church that you wanted to be a part of.
- But you made the decision to be more than just a member.
- You made a decision to start advocating
- for gay and lesbian rights, or gay and lesbian acceptance,
- put it that way, within the church environment.
- Talk to me about the beginnings of that,
- the beginnings of that thinking for you,
- becoming somewhat of an activist within the church environment.
- RALPH CARTER: I would call myself a reluctant advocate,
- and a reluctant activist.
- When we would have our meetings with Presbyterians
- for Lesbian and Gay Concerns on a monthly basis,
- that was a safe place.
- And I think it's a rare activist that doesn't
- know where their safe place is.
- Otherwise you're going to get slaughtered.
- Or it could be very dangerous.
- So PLGC, from a religious perspective, PLGC and Dignity
- Integrity were places of solace, places to go and lick
- your wounds, and so forth.
- So within those communities, I began
- to wrestle with, OK, I love the church of which I'm a part.
- My partner is in another congregation.
- Do I move from my church to his church, or what?
- And they don't even know who I am.
- Can I even come out?
- I don't know.
- I don't know where they are on the whole gay issue.
- Fortunately for me, there were members of PLGC
- who had thought, they deliberately
- were very intentional about approaching ten congregations,
- and spoke to the leadership of ten Presbyterian congregations
- in the five county region, including Third Church,
- and said, "We would like you to formally consider
- welcoming gay and lesbian people as members
- of your congregations."
- And after a year of sitting on that,
- the session, or governing body, of Third Church
- agreed to form a private study group.
- Wouldn't even tell the congregation,
- they were so afraid to talk about the issue.
- At the time, this was a eighteen hundred member congregation
- on East Avenue, very visible regionally, nationally.
- And so they were very conservative about how they
- were going to approach things.
- Meanwhile, I had come out to the pastors,
- and was asked to join this cloistered study group.
- Instead of being framed as a group
- to talk about homosexuality, it was
- reframed to talk about human sexuality in the larger
- context.
- Because at the time, there were gender issues,
- there was sexuality among older adults.
- What happens when your partner dies and you find love
- and you've got grandkids?
- What do you do?
- What about abortion rights?
- So this task force was to talk about all of that.
- I was on that task force as a closeted gay man
- for almost the first year, all of the first year,
- even though I was called on to facilitate the discussion
- on homosexuality, which I did, and then came out to the group.
- And it was a wonderful event.
- It was a wonderful experience.
- And so I became more brave, and more open, and more of myself,
- as the time went on.
- So we were so excited about the kind of freedom
- which comes from being open and being able to ask questions
- no matter what the topic.
- And some of these quote unquote taboo topics
- that we recommended to the church
- that they invite a theologian of national note
- to come and to lead a weekend conversation about sexuality.
- And it was Peggy Way from Vanderbilt who came,
- and she left some very important thoughts
- with this large congregation, one of which
- was, never label one another, but recognize that,
- depending on the topic and where we are in our lives,
- we're conserving and we're also liberating.
- We seek liberation, and we seek to save those things which
- are valuable to us.
- So she advised us to avoid labels,
- but to really try to listen to one another
- and to hear each other out, and to above all, be in community,
- regardless of where we happened to be on particular issues.
- Out of that study group, one year long,
- in the early eighties, formed two groups.
- One was a support group for gay and lesbian people, which
- actually continues to meet till this day, twice a month
- on Monday evenings.
- It's now called Born This Way, but it used
- to be the LGBT Support Group.
- And when it first started, the big debate
- amongst the session was, well, do we want
- to call this a support group?
- Because that means that we actually support gay people.
- Or shall we call it a discussion group?
- And of course we were livid about the very idea of not
- calling it a support group.
- Ultimately a support group it was.
- Then they were concerned about well, you can't publicize it.
- And we knew they were uncomfortable as a session
- talking about these issues.
- So we ended up saying, well, we'll develop a model for it.
- And we had certified counselors facilitating the support group,
- and it was just going to be for members of the congregation.
- And then after six months of meetings,
- we were going to come back and report
- to you how we were progressing.
- So we knew that that way we would
- get a second hearing with them.
- And it was a very good group.
- And because the church newsletter went out
- to the Democratic and Chronicle and City Newspaper and other,
- they tended to put things in the paper
- about things that were going on.
- So we got publicized without our realizing it, in the press.
- It was a very good gathering.
- We had, at one point, we actually
- had some nuns coming from the Catholic Diocese who
- were trying to figure things out in a safe environment.
- And it's been very successful.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me ask you this, because I know this all
- started before you even got here,
- but from your point of view, why did they bother?
- It would have been so easy for any of the churches,
- like some of them still do, to say, you know,
- we're not going to talk about that.
- We're just going to stick to the scriptures,
- and this is what we're going to preach,
- and this is how we're going to operate.
- Why do you think that some of the Presbyterian
- churches here and some of the Episcopalian churches,
- and even Colgate Rochester of Divinity,
- it would have been so easy for them
- to just put the blinders on and not even address gays
- and lesbians.
- RALPH CARTER: Well it is true that it's easier
- not to rock the boat.
- But when people are not able to be themselves fully,
- then the whole community suffers.
- And if you're suffering in silence, then you're suffering
- is just going to continue.
- And so it's important for people of faith,
- and people who are of goodwill toward various minorities,
- whether they're gay or people of color or different abilities
- or disabilities, to speak out on their behalf,
- and to speak with them and to speak in solidarity.
- Because it's the only way things are going to change,
- is when people speak out.
- I think a lot of people in congregations, in faith groups,
- don't realize how important their voice is in the larger
- conversation, and what healing they can bring for people who
- are struggling to accept their brother
- or sister, or their child.
- And so when the church says that, it's not our place
- to judge, that's what God is supposed
- to do we're here to love one another,
- and to care for one another, and support one another.
- And when we do what we're supposed to do,
- then the world will be a better place.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But within that, we'll
- just focus on the Presbyterian churches right now.
- Not all of them were jumping on board here, were they?
- RALPH CARTER: Oh goodness.
- When Third Church became an open church,
- we just said, OK, we want to put down on paper
- and to say publicly what we've been doing for years, which
- is to welcome gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender
- people into the full membership of the church,
- and the full ministry, including ordained offices
- within the church.
- We're putting that on paper and we are communicating that
- to the world.
- Less than a mile down the street on East Avenue
- is Brighton Presbyterian Church, right across from Whiteman's
- on East Avenue, and they took umbrage to that,
- because they had started a whole national ministry.
- I remember they had a national speaker, Colin Cook,
- who was the director of Homosexuals Anonymous.
- And they formed the national Presbyterian group
- for advocating that gay people become ex-gay people.
- And so when Third Church made its statement in January 1987,
- after six years of study, deliberate study,
- we were brought to court.
- We were taken to court for making what really
- was a statement of conscience.
- And so it went through the judicial process,
- the church courts, from the presbytery permanent
- judicial commission, to the synod of the Northeast,
- and then to the General Assembly.
- And we prevailed.
- That a statement of conscience--
- in Presbyterian parlance, we are proud to say that God alone
- is Lord of the conscience, and that people
- should be able to speak their mind because only God has
- the truth.
- Everybody else is seeking the truth, but we don't have it.
- Only God can claim the truth.
- So with that, it's been a very interesting thing.
- I remember a number of people from the Brighton church
- and from other congregations would,
- when the city of Rochester was considering nondiscrimination
- policies for the city, and people would go to City Hall
- and so forth.
- There were a number of anti-gay congregations would go,
- but then also a number of pro-gay congregations
- would go, as well.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So it was the culmination of More Light?
- Is this how Third Presbyterian became a More Light church?
- RALPH CARTER: Of how we did it?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Of how you did it?
- RALPH CARTER: Well, there was a lot of reticence
- to say publicly that which we were
- doing more in-house, privately.
- We had one of our adult education gatherings,
- and the widow of an esteemed senior pastor,
- Dr. Hudnut, his wife Betsy, was her first name, Hudnut,
- would never speak, but she would come to the adult forums.
- She got up one day.
- And everybody was like, oh my gosh, this women is speaking,
- she never speaks.
- And she looked at a painting of Lilian Alexander,
- and pointed to it, and says, do you
- remember in the 1950s, when we were talking about
- should women be able to pastor congregations?
- And we are so proud that we authored,
- as a congregation, that overture to Rochester Presbyterian,
- then ultimately to the national church,
- to bring that about by 1957, which
- was the year after I was born.
- But if you remember, at the time, we were terrified.
- What are we doing, stepping out?
- What are we doing, saying what we believe
- and moving Rochester and moving the country
- to a different, more inclusive, more welcoming place?
- That's where we are now.
- We are terrified of saying what we believe.
- But ten years from now, twenty years from now,
- if we don't say what we believe now
- and step out in faith that the world can be better
- for all of our members and for our whole community,
- and to make the world a better place,
- if we don't take that step now, then we
- won't be able to look back on that effort years from now
- as we look back on accepting leadership gifts of women
- in the church.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So define for me the premise
- of the More Light church.
- What is its core mission?
- Its core value?
- RALPH CARTER: Presbyterians are a very egalitarian group.
- The Presbyterian Church does not have bishops.
- It's the gathered community which serves
- as the office of the bishop.
- We don't have popes.
- It's the gathered community, representatives,
- commissioners from presbyteries around the country that
- serves as the office of the pope, if you will.
- We also have ideas that I mentioned.
- God alone is Lord of the conscience.
- And we speak truth with humility,
- because God alone has the truth and everybody else
- is seeking it.
- So in terms of being a More Light congregation,
- the underlying issue is, are we going
- to continue to be a place where all voices can be heard?
- Because if you're going to seek wisdom,
- and to seek truth, and to seek justice,
- you need to have an open table, and voices need to be heard.
- And so if voices are being stifled,
- then you're only seeing dimly what
- you could see more clearly.
- So you need voices of gay and lesbian people
- around the table, and you need people of color,
- you need people with different abilities,
- need people of different educational backgrounds.
- You need as many people as you can
- get to talk about how do we make the world a better place?
- How do we make our lives better?
- How do we care for those who need our help?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's step back a little bit,
- because we kind of bypassed the formation of CREATE Justice.
- Let's talk a little bit about that.
- Define for me what is CREATE Justice
- and how did that come about?
- RALPH CARTER: CREATE justice is an acronym
- called Church's Responsibility to Educate and Advocate
- Toward Equality, that's the create, justice for lesbian
- and gay persons.
- And it started as an idea that came about in a Presbyterians
- for Lesbian and Gay Concerns meeting, probably
- at Keith Hirschberger and Lee Fisher's home,
- in a potluck supper.
- There had been national fundraising for mission,
- millions of dollars being raised,
- I think about maybe three hundred
- thousand dollars that was going to be kept locally in the five
- county region around Rochester.
- And this was in the early 1980s.
- And this was after Virginia Davidson
- had brought the report on the church's concern
- with homosexuality to the national church.
- It was rejected, but what was part
- of the final accepted report was that the church
- was firmly committed to civil rights
- for lesbian and gay people.
- So we were crushed by that national statement, however
- we were encouraged by a member of the staff of the presbytery.
- How can you turn something bad into something good?
- Take the good, ignore the bad, and go with it.
- And so we said well, there's this civil rights advocacy
- commitment, and the church has always been very supportive
- of civil rights for people.
- So we formed a proposal and took it
- to the presbytery to fund for five thousand dollars
- a three year civil rights advocacy network,
- an ecumenical network, for upstate New York,
- Buffalo to Albany, and down the Pennsylvania line.
- And so we met.
- We had members of the Unitarian Church, the Episcopal diocese,
- the Roman Catholic members, Methodist, Lutheran,
- so there were a number of denominations involved.
- And we met at the Episcopal diocesan house on East Avenue.
- It's really cool place, if you've been inside of it.
- And I think we developed a network,
- I think it was about fifteen hundred people in this mailing
- list.
- This is prior to email.
- And it was really a good thing.
- And a lot of those connections ripple even today.
- That was from the eighties.
- So some of those friendships that were made then
- morphed into interfaith advocates
- for lesbian and gay people.
- And also some of those friendships
- continued on, even recently, a couple of years ago,
- in terms of the marriage effort.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: But initially with CREATE Justice,
- what was the core mission?
- What were you hoping to achieve by starting up this group?
- RALPH CARTER: CREATE Justice was basically taking
- some of the national and statewide issues
- in terms of civil rights for lesbian and gay people,
- and encourage people of faith to enter
- into the conversation, especially
- those who were traditionally progressive people who
- had experience in working for migrant worker justice,
- for African-American civil rights, voting
- rights in the sixties, Voting Rights Act, and a number
- of different women's gender issues,
- and to bring those people of faith
- to open up the conversation, to speak with
- and to work with and on behalf, and to speak out
- as allies of the lesbian and gay community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And I need to backtrack a little bit.
- I need you to set up for me just very quickly about Virginia
- Davidson proposing the legislation to the General
- Assembly.
- Just very quickly set that up for me,
- what that was all about, and then
- how that drove you, locally, to develop this group.
- So I need a little bit more about Virginia Davidson.
- Who she was --
- RALPH CARTER: Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: She was from Rochester, right?
- I think that's significant, that here's
- this woman from Rochester, going to the national General
- Assembly, putting forth this proposal.
- RALPH CARTER: Virginia Davidson was
- this tall, regal, statuesque, Pittsford housewife.
- White hair, just absolutely gorgeous woman.
- When Virginia entered a room, voices would stop,
- heads would turn, who is this woman?
- Just a really neat personality.
- Very interesting person.
- Virginia's husband, Davey Davidson I think
- was a vice president at Kodak.
- When they retired in--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Sorry.
- One second.
- Apparently, they can't read signs.
- OK.
- So, yeah let's pick it up from the husband.
- RALPH CARTER: When Davey and Virginia's children
- left the nest, Virginia and Davey
- built a townhouse on Gibb Street near the Eastman Theater.
- And I think it was the early seventies,
- a very dear friend came out to her who
- was a Presbyterian minister.
- Virginia loved this man, and realized,
- I know nothing about what it means to be gay.
- But she heard his story, she began to read up on it,
- and she began to speak out.
- Virginia was asked to be the Vice Moderator
- of the national church.
- And at the time, as a Vice Moderator,
- sort of like the Vice President of the US,
- you know a lot of times there's nothing to do.
- But there was a big national conversation
- about the church's concern with homosexuality.
- Virginia was asked to convene that group,
- and to chair that national group.
- And as a budding feminist, she was
- really interested in having community settings
- where people in the community could come and speak,
- and so forth.
- It was remarkable conversations for the first time,
- for many people around the country.
- So they brought their report to the General Assembly
- in San Diego in 1978.
- The majority report became the minority report.
- Minority report, which is anti-gay, became the majority.
- And then they had to reconcile the two.
- So in the notes about the majority report, which
- was ostensibly anti-gay, the gay people
- could not be welcomed in the church
- but they instead needed to recognize their sin,
- and whatever kinds of stuff.
- In the midst of all that was a very clear statement
- about the church's commitment to civil rights
- for lesbian and gay people.
- And from that, then, we subsequently
- talked about well, how do we turn a bad situation
- into something good?
- And that's how the conversation about forming a civil rights
- advocacy network in upstate New York came.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me go back then a little bit,
- because it seems to me it's a little hypocritical.
- This majority report about OK, we've
- got this anti-gay language in there,
- saying we can't accept gays and lesbians in the church
- unless they accept their sins or something,
- but we're also advocating civil rights for gays and lesbians.
- How did they argue the two?
- Having both of those two statements in the same report,
- how did they justify it?
- RALPH CARTER: Well, it's very difficult
- to justify what the church does sometimes.
- But there were very opposing forces
- in the national conversation, some of whom would say,
- who are the people who are also anti-gay,
- would say basically the church has no role in speaking
- about any civil issue at all.
- That the sole purpose of people of faith
- is to save souls, but not be concerned about whether people
- can have bread on the table, whether they're starving,
- whether they have a place to stay, a place to live,
- and so forth.
- So there's that group.
- And then there's the other whole group which marched on Selma,
- there were people involved in registering people
- to vote, ensuring that African-Americans had access
- to the ballot box, that when Native Americans were marched
- across the country there were Presbyterians that marched
- with them in solidarity.
- As a number of other denominations as well.
- So there were these two opposing forces.
- And there was no way that the pro-inclusion people were going
- to allow a report to not have some aspects of what
- they were about.
- So it was adopted in.
- So there was this tension for decades,
- and still continues to this day.
- This pro-, anti- forces.
- So it's important to continue to speak out.
- No matter what.
- You can't rest on your laurels.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Let's talk a little bit about Janie Spahr,
- and that incident, as though I'm someone who really
- doesn't know anything about it.
- Tell me about Janie Spahr, who she was,
- what the controversy was and the impact that it had, not only, I
- think, on the church, but also on the community as a whole.
- RALPH CARTER: Janie Spahr is a remarkable woman.
- Janie grew up in Pennsylvania, and her first pastorate
- was working with a historically African-American congregation,
- very rural congregation in Western Pennsylvania.
- She moved to California, and she married a wonderful man,
- and they have, I think, three children.
- She came to Rochester in the early eighties,
- still in her marriage, and spoke to Presbyterians
- for Lesbian and Gay Concerns folks in a weekend conference.
- We had a wonderful time together.
- Very spiritually gifted woman.
- And then she started coming out, a couple
- of years after that conversation here.
- Her husband, Jim, when Janie came out to him,
- fully supported her.
- Said Janie, "I'm so glad you have found yourself."
- He saw that she was being authentic,
- and discovered that she is, in fact, a lesbian.
- Her whole family embraced her as she went on this journey.
- And I remember going to West Hollywood Presbyterian
- Church when Janie received an award, and she spoke.
- Virginia Davidson went to that gathering.
- I met Jim, and Janie and Jim's children.
- And it was just amazing to me that a family could love.
- He says, "The only way I can continue to love you
- is that you be who you are.
- And that means that we need to be divorced
- so that you can find love in your life, a true love
- in your life."
- So Janie had intersected with the lives
- of many people in Rochester over the years
- in her gay civil rights advocacy.
- Civil and ecclesial rights advocacy.
- And she was called to be a co-pastor
- of the downtown Presbyterian church.
- And it was very clear from the reports being
- given by members of the nominating
- committee to the presbytery that she was
- the best candidate for the job.
- And so they felt they had to ask her to come,
- even though she's openly lesbian.
- When that was challenged, the presbytery
- endorsed her, and said that everything was in order,
- the congregation did a very good job reviewing candidates.
- That was challenged.
- It was reaffirmed.
- It went to the synod.
- That was then affirmed by the synod,
- and it was a challenged to the national church,
- and it was turned back.
- So the downtown church then went through a--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible).
- OK.
- RALPH CARTER: Is that-- am I going
- too much detail you think?
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I think you could be a little more
- concise with it.
- Let's pick it up where the national assembly turned
- her back.
- RALPH CARTER: So the primary judicial commission
- of the national church rejected the decisions of the synod
- and of the presbytery in supporting the congregation's
- call to Janie to be a co-pastor.
- Everybody was devastated.
- And so there was a couple of months
- after that decision, a gathering in Rochester
- of key leaders of the gay movement from around
- the country and they said, well, if we can't call her
- as a pastor, why don't we call her as an evangelist?
- Because what the church really needs, obviously, are stories.
- They need to hear stories of people.
- They need to see people who are lesbian
- and gay, bisexual or transgender,
- because when they see us, of course, they'll love us.
- So there was nothing in our governance, called
- the Book of Order, which said well, you
- can't be a lesbian and gay if you're an evangelist.
- So she was called as an evangelist,
- as a mission project of the congregation.
- So the downtown church commissioned
- Janie Spahr to serve them as an evangelist to the whole church.
- So she traveled across the country
- and has done a remarkable job.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Is she to this day still an evangelist?
- Did she ever become a pastor?
- RALPH CARTER: Janie, she retired.
- When she stepped down as evangelist for That All May
- Freely Serve, which was the mission project of the downtown
- church, she then retired.
- But prior to accepting the call, she
- had been a director of a nonprofit organization
- north of San Francisco.
- What's that area called?
- I forget what that area's called.
- But, anyway.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: (unintelligible).
- RALPH CARTER: But that is to say, she retired.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So, we have just a short time.
- We haven't even covered corporate world yet.
- We'll get a little bit into that.
- Before we get to that, I want to just get a feel from you
- about your perception of how to advocate
- for gay and lesbian rights through the church.
- You saw this as a place that you could
- create change for gays and lesbians in the community,
- in the country, possibly in the world.
- RALPH CARTER: There are many different types
- of congregations.
- And how they view themselves and how they work for change
- it differs by congregation.
- Some congregations call themselves--
- I would call them tall steeple churches.
- If there's a problem or something needs to be solved,
- call the mayor.
- Let's get the mayor's office in here.
- Let's get the leader from the Center
- for Governmental Research here.
- Let's talk about the systemic issues
- and figure out what needs to be done.
- We can solve this thing with a simple phone
- call, or small conversation.
- There are other congregations that approach change
- by hearing a story.
- They need to see, experience their neighbor.
- So in the case of LGBT civil rights advocacy, or advocacy
- in general, getting to know members of their congregation,
- getting to know people in their immediate community,
- is crucial to help people commit to be on the journey
- and to speak out on behalf of their friends and neighbors.
- Other types of congregations, it's like the suffering servant
- kind of a model, where you need to really clearly understand
- the injustice, clearly see what the negative impact
- is of what's going on and why that needs to be changed.
- And once they understand that, oh my gosh, watch out.
- Not that everyone is the neat categories,
- but there are different ways to approach congregations
- to get them to engage in helping to change the world.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I don't want to miss this point with the story
- that you shared with me, your first mailing
- for CREATE Justice and having envelopes returned.
- Just tell me about that.
- Tell me about becoming official with official letterhead
- and sending it out, and then some of the response
- that you got from it.
- RALPH CARTER: CREATE Justice, as a committee,
- said, well, we have to come up with our own branding.
- So at that time, nationally and internationally,
- there was a lot of conversation about the persecution of gays
- and lesbians during the Holocaust.
- So there's a Holocaust Remembrance Day that
- was starting to happen locally.
- And so we took the pink triangle,
- the inverted pink triangle, as a logo.
- So we had the pink triangle, and then
- CREATE Justice for lesbian and gay persons.
- And we put it right there on the envelope,
- right there on the top of our letterhead of our letters.
- And so I think for our first mailing
- we had maybe two to five hundred people.
- We actually collected a lot of names of people from Rochester
- to Buffalo to Albany.
- This wasn't our first letter, but I
- think about maybe our fifth or sixth one.
- Everything was going fine, and then
- we finally got our letterhead printed,
- and our envelopes printed.
- So we said OK, this is great.
- Let's send this letter out.
- So we sent the letter out, and then we got twenty or thirty
- angry letters in response.
- And in the case of some, return to sender, unopened.
- And we hadn't had that before.
- And then we had this crisis.
- How can we be a civil rights advocacy network
- if we're unwilling to say that we're advocating
- for gay and lesbian people, even though it
- is on the front of an envelope.
- At that time in the early 1980s, even talking
- about lesbian and gay civil rights
- was a risky proposition for many people,
- especially people in the church.
- They felt very vulnerable about that,
- because they hadn't really articulated,
- we hadn't articulated as a community, what it means
- to be a lesbian or gay person.
- And what does it mean to be a person of faith who
- is concerned about the welfare of neighbors
- who may be gay or lesbian?
- So we were shocked at all this returned mail.
- So we began using Presbyterian envelopes,
- and used the letterhead on the inside.
- So that was necessary at that time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: In retrospect, people looking back at the work
- that you've done through the church for gay advocacy, what
- do you want them to know most about what you've done?
- What are you most proud of?
- What is the greatest impact do you think that you've
- had that you really want people to know about,
- in what you've done through the church for gay advocacy?
- RALPH CARTER: I'm a reluctant advocate,
- as I mentioned earlier.
- And it's not so much what I do, it's what we do,
- and what we have done.
- Everything that I've done is always
- in partnership with other people.
- Probably the biggest discovery, if you will,
- is by speaking from your heart, people,
- even though they might be terrified,
- we're talking about sex, oh my gosh, they resonate with that.
- If you speak truly, speak truthfully,
- and speak honestly and openly, there
- is tremendous strength in vulnerability.
- And doing that, people begin to see themselves,
- and they see how--
- if you're comfortable in your own skin,
- people are comfortable with you.
- More comfortable, or likely to be.
- So most of my fears about working for change
- have been unfounded.
- The fears have been my own fear, internalized fear.
- Because once I speak with people,
- or in a group of people, in a conversation,
- then we move forward.
- And it's an amazing thing how that happens.
- But there is tremendous strength in vulnerability.
- Truth leads to power.
- I mean, truth can speak to power.
- Truth is power.
- So I'd say, that's the biggest discovery for me.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: One more question comes to mind.
- Then I'll have to stop thinking of questions here.
- (unintelligible).
- The Presbyterian churches here in Rochester, Downtown, Third
- Pres, whatever.
- They became More Light churches, they've
- become more accepting of gays and lesbians,
- become advocates for gay and lesbian rights,
- march in the gay and lesbian--
- RALPH CARTER: Pride parade.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --pride parades, and all that stuff.
- RALPH CARTER: Oh, I'm afraid I didn't
- mention about Daily Bread.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Daily who?
- RALPH CARTER: The meal program for AIDS Rochester.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Right.
- There's all that.
- What about the Presbyterian churches nationally?
- Are they all coming to the same light?
- Or are there still many challenges ahead there?
- RALPH CARTER: There have been some great progress
- in Presbyterian church.
- At one point, things got so bad in the dialogue
- that the denomination was even threatening to formally
- not allow lesbian and gay Presbyterian groups,
- like Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay Concerns, More Light
- churches, More Light Presbyterians, That All May
- Freely Serve, to have space, even,
- in the exhibit hall at the national conferences.
- That was the low point.
- Fast forward to a couple of years
- ago, two years ago, the national church formally
- adopted a policy which says that one's sexual orientation shall
- not be a barrier to accepting the leadership
- gifts of gay and lesbian, bisexual, and transgender
- people in the church.
- It was one thing getting a group of three or four
- hundred commissioners to agree to that, clergy and elders,
- but then to take that then to the one hundred
- and seventy some odd presbyteries
- around the country, and the majority of them
- approved it, including a clean sweep in Alabama,
- north Florida, Georgia, south Louisiana, Arkansas.
- I mean, the southeast approved this.
- So the world has changed.
- And it has changed.
- And it's really through the tenacious efforts
- of a lot of people.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So I want to put that in context for Rochester.
- How big of an influence do you think the churches here
- in Rochester had in making this happen twenty,
- thirty years later?
- RALPH CARTER: I think Rochester had a big impact nationally
- on this whole dialogue about accepting the leadership
- gifts of gay and lesbian, bisexual, and transgender
- people.
- In the 1980s, in the early eighties,
- our region had the most More Light churches of any region
- in the entire country.
- We've had three or four national conferences
- in Rochester over the last twenty years,
- more than any other region of the entire country.
- People would ask the question, what is it about Rochester?
- Is there something in your water?
- How is it that you can be so progressive on these issues.
- And so I think Rochester, we're tenacious.
- Rochester, when it puts its mind to it, can make things happen.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: All right, let's jump ship
- from here a little bit.
- Just little short bites on the corporate world,
- more so with Out and Equal.
- Before we get into what Out and Equal is, can you just give me
- a little bit of information about some
- of the pre-corporate business gay groups
- that have formed over the years, and what
- they were trying to do in regards
- to advocating for LGBT rights.
- And then we'll move into how that all kind of steered
- its way into what we now know as Out and Equal.
- RALPH CARTER: With the advent of the internet,
- gay people really began to find one another around the country
- and in Rochester.
- So that was the beginning of GALAXe Pride at Work at Xerox.
- Also I think Lambda Network at Kodak.
- Having the internet and being able to communicate and find
- gay and lesbian people within your company
- was really supported with the advent of the internet.
- And so as companies began to really work
- on the importance of recognizing diversity
- and how important a diverse employee population
- helps the company to be more successful, when
- that kind of vision as a corporate way of how
- do we hire, how do we mentor, how do we promote employees,
- and what is the kind of work environment that we want
- to have for our employees so that they can succeed
- and we can really be entrepreneurial and really
- succeed as a corporate effort?
- The gay and lesbian piece of that began to emerge.
- And so employee resource groups, or caucus groups,
- however you want to term them, began to form.
- So Kodak, Xerox, Bausch and Lomb for instance, all
- have employee resource groups.
- And we began to be asked by other companies in the region,
- How do we start that employee group?
- How do you how do you make the business case, and so forth.
- And so with that we decided to form a collaborative effort
- locally.
- One, how do you name it?
- One name was going to be Orb, Out in Rochester for Business.
- And then we settled on FLLWA, Finger Lakes LGBT Workplace
- Alliance, little bit of an acronym.
- And then eventually that morphed to Out and Equal,
- New York Finger Lakes, as a part of a national workplace
- advocacy for equality based in San Francisco.
- So Rochester, our New York Finger Lakes,
- is one of eighteen affiliates around the country,
- and we're the second largest.
- We're bigger than Chicago, bigger than New York,
- San Francisco, L.A., Dallas, Atlanta is
- the only one bigger than Rochester,
- and it's really quite an amazing thing.
- Simultaneous with that, the corporate effort
- from the early, maybe, late eighties, late 1988
- and early nineties, and then in the nineties
- there was also a number of people getting together
- socially, and I'm not sure which name was first,
- was it Fruits in Suits?
- Then Community Business Forum.
- Those were monthly networking gatherings,
- and what was really great is people also
- had a concern about the whole community.
- And so they over time adopted the pride
- parade, and organizing to bring the pride parade every year.
- And so the fundraising, some of the monies
- that came in every month, went into the coffers
- to support the pride parade.
- Eventually the Community Business Forum
- and Out and Equal merged.
- So we now have, in terms of the monthly networking,
- there's second Thursdays networking event every month
- that Out and Equal organizes, and what's
- been really great is that the Gay Alliance, as an umbrella
- organization for the entire community,
- has taken on the organizing of the pride parade,
- and has been doing a super job in the last several years
- of getting the entire community engaged to bring the pride
- parade.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So if you were to define the one main purpose
- of Out and Equal, what is it?
- Why do you need to exist?
- Let me ask it that way.
- RALPH CARTER: The purpose of Out and Equal
- is to promote workplace equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual,
- and transgender people.
- If you're in the work world, you spend at least eight hours
- a day.
- So that's like, one third of twenty-four hours a day
- on weekdays, and sometimes more than that, in the work world.
- If you cannot bring your full self to the work,
- if you need to watch your back, then you're expending a lot
- of energy protecting yourself.
- If you're concerned that people are going to like,
- card your car in the parking lot,
- or if you're not going to get promoted
- if you bring a photograph of your partner
- or your husband or your spouse and put it on your desk,
- then you're expending a lot of negative energy
- to just survive.
- We don't need that.
- LGBT people do not need that kind of hassle.
- Your company, if they want to be successful,
- they need work environments where people can thrive.
- And so that's what Out and Equal is all about.
- Workplace equality.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So educate me a little bit.
- I know Out and Equal because of the second Thursday
- social events where I'm networking with businesspeople,
- but there are primarily gay businesspeople
- who are there for the same reason
- with other gay businesspeople.
- But how is Out and Equal actually
- helping the corporations themselves?
- Or educating the corporations?
- You know, getting outside of the Thursday night
- social events, what is Out and Equal doing to actually educate
- management, educate presidents and vice presidents?
- RALPH CARTER: Right.
- Out and Equal organizes an employee resource
- group leadership council, and so that group meets quarterly.
- And so it's for people who are leading or deeply involved
- within their own companies to either sustain their employee
- resource group for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender
- employees, or if they're considering forming one.
- So it was very interesting in the last two years,
- where University of Rochester has become involved,
- as well as St. John Fisher has gotten involved.
- A number of the college environments,
- for instance, our colleges are our largest employers now
- in the Rochester area, they have pride groups
- for their students, but a lot of them
- do not have anything for staff and employees.
- so that's what we're about.
- So we've been a place where conversation
- can happen, for instance, at the University of Rochester,
- to encourage them about how they can form their employee
- group, their network, but then also, as a result,
- they have since looked at what are the health care
- policies that they have for people coming
- to the Strong Hospital?
- What are their admissions policies,
- what kind of education do they need
- for employees about how to be good health care
- providers in the hospital setting for people
- who are in the hospital?
- So it's all good stuff.
- It's important conversation to have.
- In addition to that kind of sharing best practices,
- we're having a workshop next week
- to which we're inviting HR, Human Resource professionals,
- as an educational event, on how to form LGBT employee groups
- and what are some of the best practices
- that employee groups have?
- How can employee groups where lesbian, gay, bisexual,
- and transgender employees provide input
- to their companies about policies
- and about work practices and so forth.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I have a hundred more questions for you,
- but we don't have enough time.