Video Interview, R.J. Alcala, October 20, 2012

  • KEVIN INDOVINO: This conversation
  • is just between you and I, OK?
  • Ignore the camera.
  • Pretend it's not here.
  • Keep in mind that the audience is not going
  • to hear my question to you, OK?
  • So try and set up each of your answers in context
  • so that the audience will know what you're talking about.
  • You rolling?
  • CREW: I am rolling.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so the first and hardest question is I
  • need the correct spelling of your first
  • and last name of how you want it on-screen.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Oh, just RJ--
  • just the initials are fine.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Is it R-period-J-period?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Yeah, you don't even need the periods.
  • You can just do it RJ, no space, no periods.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: And my last name is spelled
  • A-L-C-A-L-A. And if you have the ability to put accent marks
  • on it, it has this kind of an accent mark over the last A.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Over the last A. All right.
  • So let's start out just in general terms
  • here before we get to the GLF stuff on campus.
  • You know, talking about the late 60s, early 70s, what
  • was it like being a gay man?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Well, in the early 60s, I was still in--
  • God, in 1960, I was still in elementary school.
  • And I was in, what I considered, a fairly
  • remote part of the country.
  • And so it's about growing up gay.
  • And I sort of figured out really early on,
  • I think, that, even though people weren't letting on,
  • it was really OK to be gay.
  • You know, and sort of like you had
  • to pick your audience and sort of your safe spots
  • and your safe people sort of.
  • I mean, I wasn't actively antagonized.
  • But in many ways, I felt very much like an outsider.
  • And I know that probably sometime around maybe 1965,
  • by which point I was in high school, there was already,
  • I believe, a GLF in New York City.
  • And the way that people across the country
  • found out about that is there was
  • some sort of an article in Life Magazine, which I haven't
  • seen in a really long time.
  • It's '65, let's say.
  • And it was about gay lib and gay people
  • and gay life in a really sort of general way.
  • I remember being glad that it was in print
  • and not being surprised by any of the information in it.
  • So it wasn't really groundbreaking
  • as for its content, just the fact that gay people were
  • surfacing as a subject and that there
  • was a political consciousness that was developing, you know,
  • and that you could see in places like New York.
  • I mean, that's all I knew.
  • And that was how a teenager in a backwater learned the word gay.
  • And I don't think, in my particular upbringing,
  • that there was anything exceptional about it
  • because like you know I wasn't physically
  • or verbally harassed, you know, much, other than, I guess,
  • the obvious--
  • let's call it the obvious name calling that happens,
  • which may or may not have meant anything anyway.
  • I was aware that there were other gay people, which
  • I think a lot of people seem not to come to that realization
  • until later on.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But still, even seeing yourself in print,
  • you know, gay people in print in 1965 or whenever it was.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I can only imagine you probably
  • still has a sense that this is something
  • that you don't go public with, that you kind of got to hide.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Oh, well, yeah,
  • but that file drawer was very full.
  • So it was just something else in there that, for a change,
  • wasn't entirely negative.
  • And it's sort of like, if you already
  • feel like it's OK to be gay, here
  • are some people that have gone past that
  • and are OK with being open about it.
  • And so, in a very subtle way, I think
  • that was sort of inspiring.
  • I mean, like I said, there are some people that
  • go, oh, I'm not the only one.
  • There was something of that--
  • I mean, obviously, I didn't think
  • I was the only gay person on the planet.
  • But knowing that there were other people that
  • were feeling positive about themselves, I think,
  • was important.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So let's move forward a little bit--
  • later '60s, '69 to be exact--
  • Stonewall.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Exactly.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about you're
  • remembrance of Stonewall.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Well, I was at school in Rochester
  • then, and I remembered hearing about it.
  • And I just thought that--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, put it in context for me
  • because remember they're not going to hear my question.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Right, I'm sorry.
  • In 1969, when Stonewall happened,
  • I was a student here in Rochester.
  • And I remember hearing about it.
  • And I had sort of mixed feelings because I was just sort
  • of horrified that people were exposing themselves
  • to that kind of potential police violence
  • and risking arrest or getting arrested,
  • and, on the other hand, just pleased
  • that people were standing up and fighting back.
  • By 1969, there was just socially,
  • in what was going on across the country and even the world,
  • the African-American Civil Rights Movement was a very big
  • eye opener for a lot of people, not only of the way that things
  • needed to change socially but what people can do--
  • people who were younger, who didn't know
  • about civil disobedience and passive resistance
  • and that sort of thing.
  • And also the Women's Movement was developing.
  • And it was really energetic and really
  • making people question a lot of things and just
  • sort of demanding recognition.
  • And one thing that I think was really important
  • was people being accepted on their own terms
  • and not defined either by what they're not
  • or by contrast to other people.
  • That was one really important sort of broad side.
  • It wasn't an article in something, I don't believe.
  • But it was at all the rallies and demonstrations and things.
  • There was an article--
  • I forget by whom--
  • called The Woman-Identified Woman, which really, I think,
  • opened certainly my eyes that you can identify yourself
  • on your own terms and that that was
  • applicable to gay people and the gay life.
  • Well, it just has so many implications.
  • You don't have to accept the name calling,
  • and you can go through life with greater dignity.
  • And it allows you also to be specially tended
  • people-- or whatever to be more self-assertive in terms of that
  • and not apologetic for the ways that you don't fit in
  • with mainstream or with expectations.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So move a couple of years forward then
  • from Stonewall--
  • the formation of the Gay Liberation
  • Front here in Rochester.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Please tell me that story.
  • Tell me about the idea that came about to form
  • this group and its initial mission behind it.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: When gay lib
  • started at the University of Rochester,
  • I was not involved in the very, very first like plannings
  • and stirrings of this.
  • It did not happen here in Rochester in a complete vacuum.
  • I know that people like Bob Osborn, who was, I think,
  • really the person who started it all,
  • was in contact with, I believe, Cornell already
  • had a gay society.
  • And I believe Columbia University did also.
  • And Bob was a very interesting person because, aside
  • from being very, very brilliant, he
  • had had experience, I believe, in the Civil Rights Movement.
  • And I don't know how.
  • All I know is that people said he was involved.
  • And what he either had learned or had been trained a lot
  • to know and be very good at a lot of things
  • like organizing, mobilizing, and encouraging people.
  • And he was actually very rather quiet
  • and sort of self-effacing.
  • He had a very quiet sense of humor, which was very sharp.
  • I believe he was a physicist.
  • So he sort of had the scientist's approach
  • to dealing almost exclusively with facts.
  • And so that made him very effective.
  • But he also was not very much of a self-promoter
  • in terms of wanting to be in the center of things
  • and have all the attention.
  • He was really very strong on helping
  • people do what they wanted to do and organize or do whatever
  • in concert with other people.
  • And I think that got people who might not ordinarily
  • have gotten involved in a whole lot of things to do one thing.
  • And at the very beginning, getting
  • one thing done is very important whether it's
  • something like starting a Speakers Bureau
  • or just getting the organization started,
  • getting it recognized as a student campus organization,
  • getting office space, having meeting rooms, having a meeting
  • schedule--
  • like I said, things like the Speakers Bureau,
  • organizing little actions, which eventually
  • came to borrow the term from the Gay
  • Activists Alliance, which was in New York.
  • A political action was called a zap.
  • So we were not really belligerently
  • political like that.
  • But we did a few very rather lower key social things
  • like when gay couples went dancing
  • at a restaurant that had dancing that
  • was otherwise heterosexual.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I'm going to pull you back a little bit.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Yes.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Let me talk about first the first time
  • you got involved with the Gay Liberation Front.
  • Talking about that first day, that first meeting.
  • Talk to me about that first experience of being--
  • not only making the choice of coming about.
  • I wanted to know why you decided to become involved--
  • but that first experience of really going to that meeting.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: OK, that's several levels.
  • I became aware that there either were already meetings going on
  • or they were about to happen.
  • Somehow, and I suspect it was at a gay bar,
  • I got a handful of flyers.
  • So my first involvement was actually putting up flyers
  • for a meeting of something that I hadn't even
  • been to yet, which was Gay Liberation Front meeting
  • at the University of Rochester.
  • And so I put those up around Eastman,
  • which is where I went to school, and it was my world.
  • And the first meeting was very interesting
  • because it was what, in retrospect,
  • you could pretty much come to expect,
  • which is not a particularly large crowd at the beginning
  • of the meeting.
  • People started wandering in eventually.
  • I think a lot of people went back and forth outside,
  • steeling themselves to enter and seeing people
  • showing up and being there.
  • Everybody was really afraid that you could get arrested, even
  • for just being out like that.
  • And people, A, realized that that wasn't happening
  • and, maybe not at the first meeting
  • but at some of the subsequent meetings,
  • I know that when the meeting was sort of begun--
  • it wasn't really even called to order--
  • there was a statement made, if you are in law enforcement,
  • if you're a cop, whatever, if you're not gay
  • and you're not here to be part of this group, please leave.
  • Of course, nobody ever left.
  • I don't know that we were not infiltrated,
  • but it would not have been exceptional if we
  • had been monitored in some way.
  • I also should add that one of the things that
  • gave a tone to this organization was that this was also
  • the period of the Vietnam War, which really divided sentiments
  • and opinions and politics.
  • And in keeping with people's growing awareness of gay people
  • as being oppressed and being a group, being called
  • a Liberation Front was barring, I
  • think, from Marxist parlance of the day
  • and certainly from the awareness of Southeast Asia
  • that the Vietnam War caused.
  • So those first meetings sort of felt,
  • not clandestine, but maybe slightly subversive.
  • I mean being gay was considered a subculture.
  • So it was a little bit rebellious just showing up.
  • And the meetings themselves were not
  • big heated political discussions or anything.
  • There was maybe almost a sense of relief of just people
  • getting together.
  • I think one awareness was, we're not in the bar.
  • We're gay people that are not hanging out in bars
  • and that it was at the U of R, of course.
  • The organization may not have been very significant
  • at that point, but the U of R was a significant entity.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about the things
  • that were being talked about.
  • I mean, why would this group come together?
  • What was driving this?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I can't really
  • speak to why this group started or why people were ready.
  • I think people were ready to do it
  • for many different reasons, as I said,
  • societal, social things that were going on,
  • movements and political persuasions.
  • Up to then, the only organization
  • that I was aware of that was nationwide
  • in scope for gay people was the Mattachine Society.
  • And I don't think there was much crossover or people going
  • from the Mattachine to Gay Lib.
  • Mattachine had been very much, I think, a little reticent,
  • staying among themselves, gay people
  • not so much confronting things as being more supportive.
  • And I don't think that there was a direct stream, a direct line,
  • from that into the gay liberation.
  • People were ready to do it.
  • People came to it for many different reasons.
  • And if I can digress a little bit,
  • I think that we saw that, when we did speaking engagements,
  • because you would sometimes see people in the audience--
  • I believe a speaking engagement at Brockport or in Geneseo--
  • there were a couple of people in the audience
  • that I knew their faces from the gay bars.
  • And they were just sitting in the back just
  • being sort of observers not really involved in the meeting.
  • But I know that one person came up later and said
  • he thought that it had been very good, that he thought
  • it was going to be a bunch of screaming queens camping it up
  • and doing all this.
  • So I think people's expectations were different,
  • and the visibility was really important, I think.
  • Because I think that people were just ready to come out
  • or just felt that something had to change,
  • that you can't just--
  • that people were no longer so willing to be second class.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to talk a little bit more--
  • now that you brought it up-- about the Speakers Bureaus.
  • Talk to me about participating in those Speakers Bureaus.
  • Again, what kind of reaction we're
  • getting from the people that attended,
  • the importance of being out there
  • and speaking about who you were?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I think that the Speakers Bureau
  • depended on people who were comfortable enough
  • to go out and identify themselves
  • without a brown paper bag over their heads or something.
  • And we really didn't know what to expect.
  • I know that the first speaking engagement
  • that I was involved with I remember that my friend, Karen
  • Hagberg, and I sat up the night before figuring
  • we've got to make some sort of an opening statement.
  • So we sat there sort of writing.
  • We ended up each making a small statement to start with.
  • The people that were in the Speakers Bureau,
  • the ones who did the appearances,
  • were just people who felt that they could do it,
  • that they had something to say.
  • And I sort of thought like, well, maybe somebody
  • can do this better, but nobody else is stepping up to bat,
  • and we've got this date coming up.
  • And so it wasn't really intimidating.
  • That first one was at a psychology class,
  • which met at the professor's house, which means
  • it was not during school hours.
  • It was not necessarily, I think, even part of the course.
  • But it was very interesting--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought for a second.
  • Did you hear the cart go by?
  • CREW: No, I didn't.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK.
  • I'm going to just take you back a little bit
  • and start off with the first one being at the psychologist's
  • home because I wasn't sure if the cart was
  • going to make noise or not.
  • So, yeah, let's pick it up there.
  • The first--
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: The first speaking engagement
  • that I did was for a psychology class.
  • And the speaking engagement itself was an evening meeting
  • at the house of the professor.
  • It was not held on campus.
  • It may not have been a required part of whatever course
  • it was a part of.
  • I don't even remember how--
  • we were all maybe in the living room, something like that.
  • We were at his house.
  • It wasn't a huge crowd.
  • I believe there were four of us speaking.
  • And I'm pretty sure the professor played a big role
  • in moderating the evening.
  • And I don't even remember the discussion.
  • But it was very respectful.
  • I didn't think that the questions and what we discussed
  • were negative or like we were being looked down on
  • or anything like that, which was really sort of a breakthrough
  • because, well, we didn't know what to expect.
  • But one had certainly never really spoken
  • that candidly or ever really had intelligent questions posed.
  • And even the professor, when the whole thing was over,
  • said that something amazing and groundbreaking
  • had happened that night.
  • And so that meant that, for the content of the class
  • and for the students, it had accomplished whatever
  • amount of making people think of new ideas it was meant to do
  • or exposing the students to a slice of society and of life
  • that they might not otherwise know about.
  • And for us, of course, because the sky didn't fall,
  • and we didn't end up in jail, it was a positive experience.
  • And I think it was important because it was so encouraging.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I just want to expand on
  • that a little bit, not even so much with the first meeting
  • but just the Speakers Bureaus in general about the significance
  • of going out in the community putting a face on gay people,
  • saying, this is who we are.
  • This what we look like.
  • In talking to people, it's still a climate that's not really
  • readily accepting gay people.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Right.
  • It was a time when gay people really weren't, well, hardly
  • visible.
  • Visibility became a big issue in the whole Gay Movement
  • and continues to be.
  • I just lost my train of thought.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's OK.
  • I'm just trying to get a sense of--
  • actually, I want to a sense of the courage that it took.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: OK, yes.
  • The issue of courage to come out to be involved
  • in an organization, to do a speaking engagement, which
  • the speaking engagements eventually branched out
  • into broadcast.
  • We did radio shows.
  • We did television shows and things like that.
  • And in my particular case, it didn't
  • feel like it took a great deal of courage.
  • As I said, I was a student at the Eastman School, which
  • in those days was a maximum student population, including
  • grad students, of 450 people, something like that.
  • And it was a very small cosmos and, of course,
  • it being a music school, even though it
  • was entirely homophobic from the officialdom,
  • from the attitude of the administration
  • toward the students, I anyway came to realize you can't hide.
  • You can't pretend.
  • You can't even try to have a double life in such
  • a small microcosm of a society.
  • And so you may as well just be who you are.
  • And whoever is going to talk is going to talk.
  • And whoever is going to be your friend, whoever
  • is going to be your supporter, whoever is going to love you,
  • that's going to happen.
  • And you can't change the outcome of that from hiding.
  • And as I said, I think that that was very much in tune
  • with what was happening socially worldwide of people,
  • shall we call it, standing their ground.
  • I mean, that's a charge term for now.
  • But people not backing down, refusing to hide,
  • refusing to lie.
  • I think refusing to lie was a really important thing.
  • I suspect that, at first, I thought
  • I don't have to go out and do a bunch of publicity.
  • I don't have to advertise myself.
  • I don't have to advertise being gay.
  • But I'm not going to shrink from it.
  • And anybody who wants to know can certainly ask.
  • So I think that by the time that we started the speakers
  • bureau, which again is something I suspect
  • that the kernel of that came from or through Bob Osborn
  • to the organization, and sure enough
  • the speakers materialized.
  • The dates materialized.
  • The audiences materialized.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you one of the ones
  • that went on the Speakers Bureau to the school with Tim Mains?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Yeah, yeah.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk me through that story.
  • Talk to me about going to Tim Mains' class.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Well, that was really interesting.
  • There were four of us who went-- two men and two women.
  • I think it was more than that.
  • Anyway, it was a classroom.
  • And it was a high school class that he
  • was teaching about the future.
  • And, of course, we didn't know anything
  • about this curriculum at all.
  • We just knew-- a class called The Future.
  • Let's go do this.
  • It was very interesting.
  • He was a very energetic young teacher
  • because I remember going like, I'm in grad school,
  • and he's already teaching.
  • I wonder how old he is.
  • He looks much too young to me to be doing what he's doing.
  • And it felt nice because it sort of felt like a little bit
  • subversive because we were getting our toe in the door
  • in a high school, which was, of course, a big no-no because--
  • I shouldn't say it was a no-no.
  • It was a very delicate subject because dealing with minors
  • and so on and so forth.
  • I don't remember the exact format of it,
  • whether we made opening statements or just walked in.
  • Or maybe Tim sort of maybe steered things in the direction
  • that they needed to go for the class.
  • And some of the students were really OK,
  • and the answers were straightforward
  • and not stupid or insulting or anything like that.
  • You never know what you're letting yourself in for.
  • And I remember that one of the people on this engagement
  • was Danny Scipione who is no longer with us.
  • And I think it was one of the girls in the class said,
  • "You're too cute to be gay."
  • So we were getting a spectrum of all sorts of things.
  • That's one thing that things like the Speakers Bureau
  • really brought home was that you can go in there with whatever
  • your intentions may be, no matter how well-prepared
  • you may be, what you may think is important to say,
  • it's where people are coming from and what they think,
  • not even what they want to know.
  • But what they think and just blurt out
  • is always really entertaining and enlightening and--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to touch a little bit more
  • on the students' response to you guys
  • there because as some of the other people
  • explained it, at some point, you had like throngs of students
  • following you through the hallways.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Yes, Tim remembers that more than I do.
  • I've heard him mention that the crowd sort of swelled.
  • I believe that was when the class was over--
  • I don't want to say the class run over time.
  • I don't remember if it did that.
  • But yeah, it goes hand-in-hand with what
  • I was saying about being a gay person in a small school.
  • Word spreads, and people are going to know.
  • And certainly word spread that day
  • when we were doing that speaking engagement.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: At the end of the day,
  • when you guys were leaving, what was the sentiment?
  • What did you feel you guys accomplished or walked away
  • with?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: It's very funny
  • because I think feeling better about people
  • to whom we were speaking.
  • We were not that long out of high school ourselves.
  • And one of the first things that we, I think,
  • all felt really strongly about that we were doing gay lib
  • so that kids coming after us wouldn't
  • go through the hard times that kids can have,
  • whether it's from isolation or a lack of acceptance or whatever.
  • And I think that, after a speaking engagement like that,
  • having spoken to really that was our youngest audience,
  • it was encouraging sort of to go on
  • in terms of what we felt we had accomplished
  • that particular day other than just opening
  • a door for people's minds to consider things.
  • And again, it's putting a face even to the names
  • that you're called.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Speaking of names,
  • I'm going to throw some names at you.
  • And I just want some short little comments
  • about these people and about what it was
  • like working with these people.
  • We already talked about Bob Osborn.
  • So let's talk about Larry Fine.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Larry Fine--
  • see I was at the Eastman School, and Larry
  • was a student on the U of R campus, on the river campus.
  • And Larry Fine was very--
  • he felt very strongly about the importance of gay lib.
  • And I think you can see that in the articles that
  • were in the closet and things-- not only just reporting events.
  • You know, we did this, we did that.
  • I know that there was one article in the newsletter
  • after, I think, the first gay lib dance on the river
  • campus, which was another positive experience
  • with a big turnout.
  • It was almost as good as the throngs of students following
  • us around the high school.
  • And he was as I say very involved and very committed.
  • And he can be very articulate because our interactions were
  • always physical and in the present
  • and never really in writing.
  • And I remember there was one article
  • that he wrote the Empty Closet something about-- the title
  • was Feeling Gay.
  • And it was very nice from a positive and personal viewpoint
  • just about things that were going on,
  • about how gay lib was happening, and being gay and being
  • a student at the U of R and things like that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: How about Marshall Goldman?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Marshall Goldman was really interesting
  • and sort of a lot of fun.
  • He was very tall, or at least he seemed tall to me.
  • And I always thought of him as the kid in the group
  • because I suspect he got involved in gay lib
  • when he was a freshman or a sophomore.
  • Very enthusiastic, very willing to show up and do things.
  • And every once in a while, what made
  • me think of him as the kid was he would say
  • stuff that I thought was just sort of off the wall.
  • Not that I did a speaking engagement with him ever,
  • but things like, you really want us to say
  • that at a speaking engagement?
  • Is that really the sort of thing you want us to all get
  • involved in?
  • And I went on from Rochester.
  • I moved out of town really after that first full year
  • of a gay lib organization.
  • And Marshall continued to be involved and all
  • that until he moved away.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: You mentioned something here
  • I want to ask you about is the first gay dance.
  • Do you remember that?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Mm-hm.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Tell me the story about that
  • and the experience of that.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Well, It's funny.
  • I don't know if it's the way my mind has always worked,
  • or maybe it's just with the distance of time
  • now because there were several dances.
  • And I have them sort of all run together in my head.
  • It was held in one of the buildings at the U of R,
  • one of the student commons buildings.
  • And it was sort of like a beer blast with dancing.
  • I had so little to do with it, I don't remember.
  • I know that there was a DJ.
  • I know that there was beer.
  • And the room was full-- it was one of the rooms in Douglas--
  • of people just having a really good time.
  • I think what was important to people was you looked
  • around the room and you couldn't tell who was gay,
  • and you couldn't tell who was straight.
  • It was just a bunch of people having a good time.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I was going to ask--
  • looking back at now, forty-plus years
  • later, the significance of that, the significance
  • of having a gay dance on a university campus.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Right, and also one
  • of the things that's really important that I hadn't really
  • thought about until now is that, even at a gay bar,
  • you weren't allowed to dance.
  • So maybe it was illegal.
  • Who knows?
  • Maybe because it was on university property,
  • it was private, and therefore allowable or whatever.
  • Can I say a little bit about gay bars and things in Rochester
  • there was one bar that we used to go to that I
  • know it was never raided.
  • I have heard stories of bars being raided.
  • I was never involved in a raid in a bar in Rochester.
  • But it was sort of like the owners of the bar
  • wanted to keep people a little intimidated.
  • And there was dancing going on.
  • It was a small place too.
  • But every once in a while, somebody from behind the bar
  • would yell, "No dancing!"
  • And people would go, oh, no dancing.
  • I guess maybe they think it's going
  • to be a raid or something.
  • And I'm sure people thought about, should we leave,
  • should we stay or whatever.
  • And then nothing would happen.
  • And people would start dancing some more.
  • And then a little later, in the same evening--
  • this would happen several times in the evening--
  • they would go, "No dancing!"
  • So having a dance at the University of Rochester
  • out in the open was a big deal.
  • And also another thing was that it really
  • was a gay and straight integrated crowd.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: I've got a note here
  • from Evelyn about the Empty Closet
  • and coming up with the name--
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Oh, yeah.
  • OK, but I wanted to back up a little bit when
  • we're talking about--
  • oh, yeah, one of the things that I wanted to say, and this is in
  • regard to Bob Osborne--
  • there were two important political things
  • that happened that first year.
  • During that first year, there was a gay march on Albany,
  • and I don't really remember.
  • I know that it's covered in the early issues of the Closet.
  • There was a rally held on the steps of the Capitol building.
  • Or is it called the State House in New York?
  • I don't even know.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: State capitol.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Yeah, on a Sunday afternoon,
  • and I remember one of the speakers
  • opened his statement by saying he'd never
  • seen this many gay people in broad daylight in one place.
  • That was in support of--
  • I don't remember what, but it was about gay visibility
  • in terms of confronting laws.
  • And then the other thing was that--
  • I believe it's this New York state representative--
  • his name was Solarz, Stephen Solarz--
  • was on some committee or subcommittee
  • that was dealing with revamping the penal code of New York
  • state.
  • And so gay groups from across the state
  • showed up and made statements in support
  • of decriminalizing being gay.
  • And Bob, with his methodical scientific mind,
  • had actually gone to the library and gone through the penal code
  • and, I believe, typed it up.
  • And then in our statement, our presentation,
  • with handouts and everything, we just
  • went through all the different categories,
  • which, of course, involved solicitation, cross-dressing.
  • Nudity was very specifically outlined,
  • like what's acceptable in the theatrical performance
  • and really how big pasties have to be
  • or how effective they have to be.
  • And so several of us got together
  • and worked on that project of making that presentation.
  • But Bob Osborn had gone through and dug up
  • the really material stuff.
  • It's like, start with the facts.
  • And I think that was really--
  • it made us feel good that we were so prepared because some
  • of the people from the other groups
  • just got up and made very emotional statements that
  • weren't necessarily constructive.
  • They were important in that they were
  • being said by a real live person who had bothered to show up,
  • who was the person affected by the laws, affected negatively
  • by the laws.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Do you remember what year that was?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: There's a picture in the Empty Closet,
  • one of the one-page old ones.
  • I don't remember.
  • I can look that up sometime if you wanted me
  • to because I know exactly what it looks like.
  • If you think you need that information,
  • I'll be glad to do that.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, I'll find it.
  • We've got all of those issues downstairs.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: There's a picture of four of us
  • on the street, including Marshall,
  • I think, Larry, Bob, me-- maybe five of us.
  • But there's a picture in the Closet.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, good.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I think, unless I'm totally
  • making up where it appears.
  • But I know the picture exists.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So back to the Empty Closet.
  • Out of the Gay Liberation Front, which eventually became the Gay
  • Alliance, there came this what started out
  • as like a little one sheet--
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Really, it was.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about that.
  • Talk to me about, again, the formation and the idea
  • of putting out a gay newspaper.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: The version
  • of how the Empty Closet came into existence
  • is, I think, something that I've maybe partially made up myself
  • in retrospect.
  • I suspect that Bob was behind it.
  • I'm pretty sure that he announced the meeting
  • and set the agenda.
  • And I remember several of us showed up.
  • There were maybe six or eight of us,
  • and we sat in one of the student lounges
  • at the University of Rochester and talked
  • about it and rough ideas about content and stuff.
  • Judging from the finished product,
  • Bob pretty much had an idea of the essential elements.
  • But one of the things that we were talking about--
  • OK, this is where I get a little bit confused.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, and you know what?
  • I need you to set it up for me somehow,
  • like, out of the Gay Liberation Front and our meetings,
  • came the idea of putting forth a newspaper.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: After we'd had a few meetings
  • and we knew that we wanted the organization
  • to seem maybe more formidable, certainly more viable,
  • than it might otherwise have been,
  • having a print organ like a newsletter or something
  • like that was important.
  • And I believe the meeting was called to discuss it.
  • And also we were told to think about names.
  • My friend, Karen, says that we were
  • sitting around her kitchen, as we did almost constantly
  • in those days, talking about things.
  • And we were thinking of what would be a good name that
  • would be all inclusive, maybe even durable, and that
  • wouldn't be offending this group or that.
  • And one thing, I suggested maybe the Empty Closet,
  • but I thought it that's too hokey.
  • Nobody's going to go for that.
  • It's not cool.
  • It's not catchy.
  • It's not taking a really a firm political, combative stance.
  • But when we had the meeting, it was a small group
  • of people who did show up.
  • And, as I say, Bob Osborn was behind the formation
  • of the whole thing and so on.
  • We sat around talking.
  • We threw around a few names.
  • We talked about what the names were
  • of other newsletters of other organizations or just even
  • slogans.
  • Everybody was going to demonstrations all the time,
  • so we're big on slogans and borrowing slogans
  • and varying them.
  • And I did mention the Empty Closet,
  • and it was batted around.
  • And I suspect at that same meeting, that first one,
  • we came up with the name.
  • And then in true Bob Osborn fashion,
  • he didn't physically pull out a list from his pocket,
  • but he had a list of what the next step should be,
  • what the content should be, what it was going to require.
  • And when you look at the old issues
  • it's sort of impressive because there is what we would now
  • call a mission statement.
  • There's a schedule of meetings with topics
  • which must have just been made up on the spur of the moment.
  • We probably reserved a room for every Sunday in the month
  • and had to come up with things.
  • And there were people that came from
  • different gay organizations.
  • I remember, from Cornell, some people came up.
  • Some people from Gay Activists Alliance in Rochester
  • came up and were sort of the featured speakers,
  • which often involved just sitting around and talking
  • about the movement and what people
  • were doing what they wanted to do and just sort of almost
  • gossiping.
  • That was the only forum for that sort of discussion.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So looking back in retrospect,
  • did you have any idea of the significance of what
  • you were starting?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Absolutely no idea.
  • Absolutely no idea.
  • It seems to me that we could not have started
  • it had we not all been involved in protest
  • movements of some kind or aware of other protest movements.
  • And there was a big current in the youth culture
  • of confronting authority.
  • And this was our own little niche that--
  • who better to do it about homosexuality than gay people,
  • taking things into your own hands.
  • And I realize now, of course, that especially those of us who
  • were students, because some people from the community who
  • were interested or involved in the organization
  • were no longer students, we had no real job to lose
  • or so we thought--
  • I'll tell you about that--
  • living far away from parents and parental authority.
  • So it was sort of easy.
  • And the time was ripe and ready for it.
  • And we hoped that it would change things.
  • We always said we don't want kids
  • to grow up with the same kind of negativity
  • that we grew up with.
  • But we had no idea how it would go on.
  • And I think it's just amazing that the Empty Closet has
  • survived as a name this long as a concept.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Well, you touched upon something,
  • so let me ask you about this--
  • job loss.
  • Is there a story there?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: It's connected.
  • The story of losing a job for being gay
  • is connected to the Speakers Bureau because somehow,
  • and I was not instrumental of this,
  • I had an organ job at a synagogue here in Rochester.
  • And I had been there for maybe a year and a half, two years
  • or something.
  • And suddenly this congregation has requested a speaking
  • engagement.
  • So I thought, well, I'm the organist.
  • I'll go.
  • And within a week of that speaking engagement,
  • I had been fired from the job.
  • And this very elderly, very sweet lady
  • in the choir who could barely sing but was
  • a steadfast member and all that, she did she did
  • say to me, as an aside, that she had spoken to the rabbi.
  • And she thought that it was a terrible idea
  • to let a student go in the middle of the school year.
  • But that was my only-- to my knowledge--
  • loss of a job for being gay.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: That's interesting
  • that they would invite the Speakers
  • Bureau to come in but then--
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: --get you fired.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Right.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Can you tell me which synagogue it was?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Oh, yeah.
  • It was Temple Emanu-El in Irondequoit.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So my next thought
  • was in kind of wrapping up this whole thing
  • is what do you want people now-- well, no I've got two.
  • I've got two more questions here.
  • So let me ask you this one first.
  • Here we are forty-plus years later.
  • We've come a long way.
  • We've gotten legislation passed.
  • People can get married in the state now.
  • But talking to most people, particularly
  • folks like you who started this forty years ago,
  • the fight isn't over.
  • What do you see as being still the challenges ahead
  • for the gay community?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I think, going forward,
  • it's going to be as difficult to predict the challenges now
  • as it was then and to predict the outcome.
  • I think that the important thing is
  • to stick together and sort of ensure the longevity.
  • One of the trends that I see looking back is that--
  • and this was sort of built into the way
  • that gay lib started way back then-- that the organization
  • would evolve to fit the needs of the members and external forces
  • that required action.
  • We all know how that all changed and things now.
  • Right now, it sort of seems that legal questions
  • and legal matters have superseded
  • health, things like job security and things like that.
  • I think that I don't want to get into predicting.
  • I just have real confidence that,
  • just as a title like the Empty Closet
  • continues to go on, that people will continue.
  • I think it's very important, or it would be gratifying to me,
  • if going forward the same institutions,
  • the same organizations, the same committees, the same groups
  • were the ones that continued, even though their mission may
  • change or the way that they do things might change.
  • Very early on, but I think before gay activists
  • and before GAGV was formed, I think
  • there was a lot of (unintelligible)
  • over feminist issues versus gay men's issues.
  • And I think that all that was superficial and really sort
  • of subterfuge.
  • It was stuff that needed to be worked through,
  • but I think it might have been unnecessarily divisive.
  • And I think that, going forward, sticking together
  • is really the strength because that's
  • how things will get done.
  • And we have to be our own network and our own allies.
  • And we have to be activists for ourselves but also have room
  • to be activists for other people.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So for future generations, today's younger
  • generation maybe, what do you want
  • them to know most about what you guys did forty years ago?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I don't know
  • what I think people should remember the most or whatever.
  • I don't think it's necessarily specific events.
  • I think sort of the longer arc of time passing and people
  • doing things.
  • I mean, another thing that I like the continuity of is
  • gay picnics.
  • The first one was just sort of a lark.
  • And having spoken recently to people
  • who were involved in the very first one,
  • it was very interesting because not just what
  • it did for gay people in general in Rochester and for gay lib
  • and for people going out and having a fun time,
  • a lot of romances got started at that picnic.
  • And it probably continues to happen.
  • And we wanted to get out of the bars.
  • So in a way that did it too.
  • I don't think that there's a neatly wrapped with a bow on it
  • sort of legacy.
  • I just think being out and giving organizations a chance
  • and giving people a chance and--
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: So if you had a message to the younger
  • generations now, what would the message be,
  • looking back at what you guys did when you were young?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I hope that gay people
  • don't need a message.
  • I think that people are coming out, I mean, in high school.
  • Taking your date to a prom wouldn't even
  • have occurred to me in high school.
  • So I think that's one thing that's
  • gratifying because it just sort of seeped into shall
  • we call it the culture.
  • It has seeped into the awareness.
  • People just need to, I think--
  • it's so cliche and so easy-- but be true to yourself,
  • be out, be active.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: But we didn't get there overnight.
  • We got there because, forty years ago, people like
  • you started the ball rolling.
  • So what are you most proud of?
  • How do you think, from what you did
  • forty years ago, helped influence us
  • to where we are today?
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I think the most important thing was
  • the visibility and being vocal about ourselves as gay people,
  • standing up, clearing the correcting the record.
  • I guess it's about keeping integrity of some sort.
  • And it sort of doesn't really matter what the particulars
  • are of what you're doing.
  • I mean, it's almost like having faith in something.
  • You've got to have faith in yourself.
  • You've got to have faith in--
  • look at all kinds of dark times that people go through
  • and that we've gone through in the last forty years.
  • And maybe it's a message about the group
  • and the individual and the interaction.
  • The group can't exist without the individual,
  • and the individual makes up the group.
  • And could I say one more thing about gay marriage?
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Sure.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: I'm in a very interesting, to me,
  • situation that's slightly unique because we
  • are a bi-national couple.
  • And my partner does not have citizenship.
  • And his staying in this country depends on his employment.
  • And so, while I'm really glad that people are getting married
  • if that's what they want to do, my personal view on it
  • is that right now the state's laws are meaningless until this
  • is addressed nationally, until he can live here,
  • and by virtue of marrying me, he can get citizenship.
  • He can stay.
  • He can get survivor's benefits.
  • He can be on my health insurance plan, that sort of stuff
  • because I'm not really an avid supporter of marriage.
  • I think a relationship, absolutely.
  • I mean, the relationship I'm talking about
  • is going to be thirty-five years this year.
  • And we're together because we love each other,
  • because we decided to be together
  • because we love each other.
  • And yet, as you know, there are many things
  • that were not allowed and many rights that we don't have.
  • And if marriage is the only way to do it,
  • I'm willing to go through it in a totally
  • civil way with no religious trappings or anything
  • whatsoever.
  • But I think that even calling it marriage
  • is, for me, a little too much of a heterosexual overlay
  • and an unsuccessful heterosexual overlay
  • onto gay relationships, which are, in many ways,
  • very different.
  • So I'm waiting for this whole thing
  • to be cleared up nationally because we
  • can go to his country and be married,
  • but that wouldn't be recognized here.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: All right.
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Thank you.
  • KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, (unintelligible).
  • ROBERT (R.J.) ALCALA: Oh, please.
  • I had--