Video Interview, Sue Cowell, April 11, 2012
- CREW: Can't make anything up here.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Alright, we are rolling.
- Let's start here.
- SUE COWELL: Is there any glare--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: No--
- SUE COWELL: --off my--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --surprisingly.
- I wanted to start initially--
- your move to Rochester.
- When you got here, what were you finding in regards
- to the gay community that was here?
- What was your first impressions?
- SUE COWELL: I moved to Rochester in 1977
- to take a position at the University of Rochester.
- And I had just completed my master's in nursing,
- and I was a nurse practitioner.
- And I grew up on Long Island, and I
- thought that I would have to fly to Buffalo,
- because I didn't think Rochester would have an airport.
- So that was my first impression.
- That was after I was crying that my partner got a job here,
- also.
- But I was so shocked when they put me up
- in the townhouse in preparation for my interview,
- when I turned the TV on and there
- were people from the LGBT community picketing city hall,
- over the possibility that the Gay Alliance might not
- get CETA funding.
- Because the United Way was getting so many negative calls
- about them, giving it to the Gay Alliance,
- that they were going to back out of it.
- And thankfully, Bill Johnson, who then became our mayor,
- had been the head of the Urban League
- and had the courage to just step up and say, we'll do it.
- We'll administer the grants.
- So I would say, more than pleasantly
- surprised to what I found.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And then as you started
- to think about seeking out a gay community, your emergence that
- happened in the gay community, talk to me about the places
- that you would go.
- Or, where were you finding gay people?
- SUE COWELL: Well, because my partner had finished
- an internship in Binghamton and I finished my internship
- in Northern California, we had to find a place to live.
- So we met in Rochester.
- She got a job at Anthony Jordan Health Center,
- and I got the one at the U of R.
- We just drove around, and you could--
- Park Avenue was the place then.
- And you had the Genesee Co-op.
- We got settled a little bit.
- But pretty shortly into my arrival in Rochester,
- I walked over to the Genesee Co-op,
- and the Gay Alliance was up on the second floor.
- And the first person to greet me was Pat Collins.
- And Pat was one of the early presidents of the organization
- and a real go-getter.
- And we just talked for a while, and then she took me to lunch.
- And then the rest of it was history.
- She recruited me.
- So I always give her credit for getting me
- involved with the Gay Alliance.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, before we get too deep into the Gay
- Alliance, I still want to get a general sense of kind
- of the social life that you were finding here.
- Or, did you have favorite hangouts?
- Did you have favorite events or organizations
- that were the gay social events that you looked to?
- SUE COWELL: Well, I was one of the founding
- members of the Rochester Women's Community Chorus.
- There was somebody who was a Eastman professor.
- I think she was a professor, or maybe--
- I think she was getting her PhD.
- And her and her partner moved here,
- and they wanted to form a chorus.
- And it was very small.
- It was maybe like fifteen people.
- Compared to now, it's much bigger.
- So that gave me a good social network there.
- And then also, just playing softball and being part of that
- kind of fun and activity.
- And at the time, the Gay Alliance
- also was hosting what they called the Lesbian Resource
- Center.
- So that twice a month there would be gatherings of women,
- one structured and one not so structured.
- And I participated in that.
- And I don't know.
- There was just always a feeling of openness.
- Also, the first house that I owned here
- was an eight-bedroom home over in the Park Avenue area.
- And so, of course, we had other women
- from the community who were renting different apartments
- there.
- And so I sort of had a built-in extended family there.
- Put it that way.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Were you surprised about--
- I don't know how to describe it.
- I don't want to say how large the gay community was
- in Rochester, but how-- maybe active or visible?
- SUE COWELL: Well, sure.
- See, I graduated from SUNY New Paltz in 1974.
- I didn't really come out until around 1974, 1975.
- And it was just a small college town, and just not
- a lot happening.
- And then I was in Pleasantville--
- Westchester for two years for graduate school.
- And that was like impossible to really find
- any kind of community.
- But at least in SUNY New Paltz, there
- was sort of a women's community.
- But ironically, because I had Joni Mitchell hair,
- they didn't think that I could be gay.
- So it was sort of like, OK, well, what do you say?
- So I just rolled with it.
- And then when I went to graduate school--
- and through all the trainings and whatever,
- I finally came to Rochester.
- So for me, I mean, it was beyond wonderful.
- It was just--
- I always say, youth wasn't wasted on me.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah.
- Before we get into the Gay Alliance,
- I want to hear about your involvement
- at the U of R Student Affairs and Sexuality Services.
- Can you talk to me a little bit about that more
- and what you were doing there?
- SUE COWELL: Sure.
- Well, at the time, the concept of nurse practitioner
- was just emerging.
- And there's actually-- Loretta Ford,
- the dean of the School of Nursing
- here at the University of Rochester,
- was one of the two founders of the whole movement, which
- was to give nurses more responsibility besides just
- changing bedpans.
- And that we actually may be able to think for ourselves
- and help patients.
- So I always liked working in a university environment,
- so the job was ideal for me.
- But I also-- my undergraduate degree was in psychology.
- And at the time, it was all about behavior modification,
- and it wasn't the part of psychology I was interested.
- I was interested in people--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Hold that thought. (pause)
- I hope he wins.
- CREW: And there will always be noise.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, let's pick it up from your interest
- and role in psychology.
- SUE COWELL: Yeah.
- For me, the interesting part of health care
- was really understanding the whole person.
- And at that time, it was the early emergence of concept
- called health education.
- That maybe it's not just go in and the doctor
- gives you a prescription.
- And you don't even know why you're taking it,
- or what you have, or how you can have some ownership
- on improving your own health.
- So my job--
- I was a nurse practitioner.
- But I had clinical-- seeing patients,
- but I always had programmatic.
- So I was in charge of the Student Advisory Committee,
- developed the first position for a coordinator of health
- education.
- That was me-- held some health and management positions.
- And I just think that it was just a really great opportunity
- for me, and they were always very supportive.
- I had a partner at the time.
- And they were very--
- everyone was very open, and I never really had a problem.
- And I did come out.
- As things progressed, we had a journal club
- where we started to read about high rates of sexually
- transmitted diseases in gay men, and it
- was just the very early inkling of what was
- going to sort of just explode.
- And Bill Valenti also worked there at the time.
- A couple of half sessions.
- And as the awareness kept growing,
- Bill talked to other people in the infectious disease unit,
- and they wanted to establish a screening clinic there.
- Because there was really no test,
- but you could test the immune system by testing T-cells.
- But they wanted somebody there that
- would provide sort of evidence or proof
- that gay men weren't just going to be tested on,
- that there was some level of confidentiality,
- and that it was for a good purpose.
- So the University Health Service allowed us to set up
- a screening clinic there.
- They also allowed us to be one of the first places that
- provided on a fee-for-service basis to people outside
- of the university setting--
- the hepatitis B vaccine.
- And for me, ironically, coming out only
- enhanced my career there.
- And that was because of the people who I worked with.
- As other things started to develop in town--
- well, this goes back a little bit
- before the HIV part of things.
- But there was a rally for rights that
- was being organized when Anita Bryant was coming
- through Rochester on her--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Yeah, let's hold on to that thought
- for a moment.
- SUE COWELL: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Because I want to continue with the thread
- that you were on--
- SUE COWELL: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: --which I was going to come to later.
- But being that we already need to,
- we'll come back to that other stuff.
- Let's continue on with the thread with the emergence
- of HIV again, and your experience at the U of R,
- and how that kind of not only helped you, but almost kind of
- prompted you to become really actively involved in diagnosis,
- treatment, awareness.
- SUE COWELL: Well, again, I just worked with really great people
- there.
- And they allowed me to be involved
- with community activities, beyond just the university
- setting.
- And when we found our first person
- who had HIV, which, of course, wasn't called that at the time,
- it was somebody who had moved back to Rochester--
- had lived in New York-- was seeing all their friends die
- and came back to be with family.
- Unfortunately, his family was not 100 percent supportive.
- And it became clear very quickly that there's
- going to have to be another support system
- outside of the medical establishment to help people.
- And we started to raise money for the infectious disease
- unit.
- We did a fundraiser at Friar's.
- And along-- at a certain point, it
- just kind of clicked that it's great to have
- community activism.
- But where is our health dollars?
- Where's our tax dollars?
- This isn't a burden just on our community.
- Our community was maybe the first slice of it
- that rose to the surface, but it was much deeper than that.
- And it took years and years for even people
- to be able to understand or acknowledge
- that it affected women.
- And so part of that--
- it just politicized me, even more than I had been,
- that we have to make the system work.
- Because we will never have the resources,
- that we can marshal the same as having a legitimate government
- support, who then influence the health
- care practices of the entire state and country.
- So we established the New York State Health Department,
- along with people from the infectious disease unit.
- And other folks established the Rochester Area Task Force
- on AIDS.
- So from the very early beginning,
- we operated as a community.
- And I think that's what made it so powerful, because you had
- infectious disease experts, working with members
- of the community, working with the non-infectious disease unit
- part of the U of R. And it just was very powerful.
- I mean, we did the first--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, I got to pull you back a little bit,
- because I don't want to rush through this.
- SUE COWELL: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to break it down a little bit.
- SUE COWELL: Sure.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So first, let's break it
- down for me a little bit about your work involvement
- with Bill Valenti, because he's a very big part of this.
- Talk to me about the two of you coming together and realizing
- that there's a greater need here,
- other than just care or treatment.
- SUE COWELL: Well, I mean, there's
- all different types of people.
- And Bill sort of had--
- could see the vision and could see what the information was,
- coming down from other sources statewide and internationally.
- And I don't think that he actually
- approached the infectious disease folks,
- but they had come up with this idea of trying
- to do some local screening.
- And so on a Friday afternoon when
- Tom Rush from the infectious disease unit
- showed up at the University Health Service to talk to me,
- we talked, and it made sense.
- And I said, "Of course, I'd be willing to do that."
- And we just-- no drama, no headaches,
- just kind of set it up, and got going.
- And Tom Rush was also--
- he was very instrumental in really keeping the university
- infectious disease unit really on track
- and trying to make really positive contributions.
- And we just had a very good working relationship.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: To pull you back even a little bit more here,
- again to the beginnings when you started hearing or reading
- about this new infectious virus rearing its ugly head,
- what did you start seeing that was happening in the community
- and happening to people in the community?
- Describe for me what you were seeing that made you realize,
- oh, my God, this is going to be a detriment to our community.
- SUE COWELL: Well, I mean, before you could see it,
- I still knew it.
- Because anything that's blood-borne is
- going to be potentially contagious to other people.
- And it just made sense that even though we
- didn't know everything, we knew some things.
- And even the opposition early on to HIV testing--
- there were campaigns that the test was worse
- than the disease.
- Our community-- it was all wrapped
- around wanting to have confidentiality protection
- under the law, which I understood.
- But on the other hand, I'd rather give people a choice.
- Don't just say, don't get tested.
- Because it did mean something.
- It meant that you were infected, and it
- meant that you can give it to somebody else.
- And at the time, there was a little bit of a movement.
- This was just right before this all broke open,
- where there was going to be--
- some people wanted to do a blood drive
- as a "community," because that would show
- that we were good citizens.
- And I just said, no way we're doing that,
- and I took flak for it.
- And we did a feminist blood drive.
- And the film that showed at the Little, well,
- all that happened here, too, of women really coming together.
- I mean, the first straight ally I
- had at the University of Rochester
- was a nurse from the cancer center.
- So her and I would go out and do these different presentations.
- So I think I always had one foot in the community,
- but I had one foot in the professional world.
- And I was never willing to sacrifice
- what I believed the reality to be for-- well, we don't want
- to disparage our community.
- Because it wasn't about our "community."
- It was about behaviors.
- So I don't know.
- I just did what I thought was best.
- And you have to just live by your decisions.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, talk to me about the RATFA, Rochester Area
- Task Force on AIDS.
- What was it?
- How did it come about?
- What was its mission?
- SUE COWELL: I'm sorry.
- Can I backtrack for a second?
- I mean, one other thing that was important
- was that we did hold the system accountable.
- Because when the Red Cross decided
- to tell all gay men that they couldn't donate--
- Tim Sally, who was very involved with Dignity-Integrity,
- and myself approached the Red Cross to say,
- "If you're going to do this, then
- you have a responsibility to educate the community why,
- not just say, well, you're banned from giving."
- And so we got them to pay for the first wallet-sized card.
- And you know what number was on there?
- The Gay Alliance, 244-8640.
- And so I think early on, people also
- had a place to call to get more information.
- So I think through just a variety of different things,
- there was awareness growing in the community.
- But again, it's not to say that people always
- liked what I had to say, or the idea of a gay cancer.
- And their behavior-- well, that's ridiculous.
- Well, you know what?
- It's not that it's a gay cancer, but it did affect gay men.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: So yeah, let's talk about RATFA.
- How did that come about?
- SUE COWELL: Well, I think because--
- basically, John Altieri was at the state health department.
- I was at the U of R, and Bill was in the part
- of the infectious disease unit.
- And we just realized that if we are scrambling after sort
- of identifying our first person with HIV and AIDS,
- it's only going to get worse.
- And then there were also--
- there was somebody-- a Haitian man that just with--
- just died very quickly.
- So I think that for whatever reason,
- we were kind of all connected.
- And although at that time, John Altieri was at the state health
- department, I was at the U of R, we later
- worked together, also when I went to the county,
- because there was overlap.
- So I think the right people just happened to be at the table
- and could see that--
- they could sort of see where this
- was going to go if there wasn't really aggressive intervention
- to try to organize the resources.
- So John, and Bill, and myself hired the first executive
- director for AIDS Rochester at the time.
- And we had very few applicants, because people didn't even
- really know what the heck we were talking about.
- But then it allowed us to submit a grant.
- The thing our state health department
- issued-- a request for proposals.
- So we put the first grant together
- to get the first health educator for AIDS Rochester.
- So it was just a little bit of serendipity
- and a little bit of divine intervention, I guess.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, let's take that back a little bit,
- because I want to get into the development of AIDS Rochester.
- Because we want to understand, a lot of that initial planning
- was on your porch.
- Talk to me about that.
- Talk to me about sitting on your front porch
- and talking about the greater need.
- SUE COWELL: Right.
- Well, there were people there like Mark Allenwood, Randy.
- I can't remember Randy's last name.
- But Mark Allenwood, Randy, Don Scalia,
- who is a psychologist at the U of R, Valenti.
- I can't remember, but those were most of the--
- I'll have to ask Bill that question, too, if he remembers
- who else was there.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Start it out for me, though.
- I mean, set it up for me that some of the initial meetings
- started on my porch, OK?
- SUE COWELL: Right.
- Some of the initial meetings, that
- was kind of focused on organizing
- our local effort to a much higher degree,
- started on my porch.
- And it was really pulling together
- people who I've already--
- had started to work with.
- Bill Valenti had worked at the University of Rochester.
- John Altieri-- I knew from the state health department.
- Because he had came in to the River Campus infirmary, which
- I was the manager of, because we had a food-borne outbreak.
- And I don't know.
- We just hit it off, and it was like we ended up
- becoming friends.
- So all those relationships are sort of preexisting,
- which really helped.
- And that's why I say it was kind of divine intervention
- that the right people came together.
- And John, being at the state health department,
- was the logical person to really take leadership
- around the formation of the Rochester Area Task Force.
- Because it was sort of in that level of government
- that it had to be organized.
- And then we've reached out to other community-based
- organizations--
- settlement houses, churches, community health
- centers, and tried to get broad representation.
- So that when recommendations were developed,
- you would have input from all segments of the community.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to continue on with that thread
- again, recognizing the need to form
- some sort of central organization aid to Rochester.
- But can you kind of expand on that a little bit, about some
- of the challenges that you were faced with in doing that?
- And politically, socially, economically, how
- did you overcome some of those challenges?
- SUE COWELL: In those early days, there
- wasn't any funding that was coming from the government.
- And one of the ways that we kind of overcame that
- was just not completely bypassing state government,
- but we didn't wait for them to pull it all together.
- And in the early days of AIDS Rochester
- in one of those early meetings, they
- were having an international conference on AIDS.
- And there was an AIDS Atlanta that was formed.
- And it was like, OK, well, AIDS Rochester.
- That sounds good.
- What's next on the agenda?
- type of thing.
- And it was all volunteers.
- We didn't have any paid staff for quite a while.
- We got office space--
- and in Tara's-- where Tara's used to be.
- We got office space where the Forum
- was over there off of Goodman.
- And we just kind of made do.
- And then the Gay Alliance was kind of the initial--
- well, it was the initial phone number
- for people to get in contact with AIDS Rochester.
- So we just kind of begged, borrowed, and stole.
- Whatever you had to do.
- And some of the fundraisers.
- And then the more awareness.
- As that grew, then organizations helping people with AIDS
- emerged, and they tapped into a much broader community.
- So it wasn't just the LGBT community
- was responsible for raising all this extra money to help
- people's needs.
- But it really did become a community-wide response.
- So even though you had sort of the medical health care
- establishment organizing as a partnership,
- I think the broader community also
- became part of that, but particularly
- through helping people with AIDS.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: I want to just stay with this
- just for another moment.
- We're in the crust of it.
- There was a time where once a week you were hearing
- someone that was dying of it.
- What was going on with you emotionally or professionally
- during that time?
- But more importantly, what was it
- that you knew for yourself, that what
- you were doing at that point, whether it was with the Gay
- Alliance, or whether it was with AIDS
- Rochester, or any other organization
- that you were really making a difference, that you
- were really doing what you needed to be doing?
- SUE COWELL: Well, somebody needed to do it,
- and I happened to be in a really perfect position to do it.
- Because I had the support of the university.
- I had the health care credentials.
- I had already been at that point,
- writing about increased sexually transmitted diseases
- in the gay community.
- And if it wasn't me, there was nobody else that I saw,
- other than Bill Valenti and John Altieri.
- And it was just something that just needed to happen.
- And like I say, I was just fortunate
- that the right people were there at the right time
- and understood--
- could see the bigger, broader impact.
- And it's not that it was easy for the gay community
- to really come to terms with that,
- because even people within the health department
- didn't come to terms with it.
- The state was more advanced than the county health
- department was at the time.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: That was kind of going
- to be-- my next question is, through all of this,
- what was the most toughest?
- What was the most frustrating?
- SUE COWELL: I don't think that there was any one thing.
- I think at the height of it, when
- we were having so many deaths and it was expanding,
- I don't think it really was expanding into IV drug use.
- I think it would just be the fact that if you
- were somebody who was addicted to heroin
- and died in a doorway--
- probably not going to get the same kind of cause of death,
- or even asking questions as you would in other populations.
- So I just always had one foot in the community and one foot
- in the world of professionals.
- And so I was a good link for that.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: OK, so let's get off that track for a while.
- Let's backtrack-- 1978, president of the Gay Alliance.
- Talk to me about that.
- You'd only been in Rochester-- not that long, right?
- SUE COWELL: Right.
- Yeah.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Talk to me about that experience.
- SUE COWELL: We'll check the dates with Evelyn later.
- Well, again, Pat Collins just got me involved very quickly,
- and I enjoyed being part of the community.
- Like I said, the Lesbian Resource Center--
- get to play softball--
- have all sorts of fun.
- And so to me, it wasn't really work.
- And I always say, I was too young to even realize
- what I was committing to.
- I was just doing it because it was fun,
- not in like just drinking kind of fun,
- but just-- it was enjoyable to me to be around people.
- It's another form of creativity that--
- I just really enjoyed it.
- And that type of energy feeds on itself,
- and then you kind of gather with other like-minded souls who
- sort of get the bigger picture.
- And it's like having a fancy house.
- And being well-to-do is nice for some,
- but that's not fulfilling for me.
- I want to be involved in making a difference.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Just a little--
- the same question.
- When you stepped into the position of president
- of the Gay Alliance, what were your initial challenges?
- What was the initial mission of the organization at that time?
- What were you hoping to achieve?
- SUE COWELL: Well, I mean, I think
- the initial mission of the organization is very--
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Again, I need you to set it up for me.
- Something like, when I was elected president of the Gay
- Alliance or something.
- Yeah.
- SUE COWELL: --yeah.
- When I became the president of the Gay Alliance,
- it was just a little bit before we
- had a real emergence of knowledge around HIV and AIDS,
- but it was percolating under the surface.
- And I think that some of the work that I did, in terms
- of writing about the emerging sexually
- transmitted diseases within the gay male population,
- definitely rubbed some people the wrong way,
- because they didn't really quite believe it or understand it.
- And we still-- although we had the Gay Alliance,
- we had the picnic, and we had some different things that
- happened, we didn't have as much of a public integration
- into the broader community.
- And for me, that happened when Bill Benet,
- who was my neighbor, got me involved
- with Democratic politics.
- And so that just added another whole piece to it.
- Because not only did I have the interest and that knowledge,
- but now, I had a vehicle to really influence
- those public policy decisions that get made for you.
- And they get made with or without your input.
- So I wanted to offer it with input.
- And so I didn't really have that--
- they had a pushback from people.
- But it's always a process.
- I mean, it was like--
- in a way, the whole thing was unbelievable
- that it was even happening.
- So I think everyone was--
- I don't want to say shell-shocked,
- but I think people were just doing the best they could.
- I mean, my philosophy is that most people do the best
- they can on any given day.
- And what's there to judge?
- Just do the best that you can.
- But the Gay Alliance continued to grow.
- And I think, definitely, while the emergence of AIDS
- was very devastating, it did really
- create opportunities for men and women to work together.
- And I think that if you talk to people from other communities,
- once they've sort of seen Rochester
- and they've been here for a little bit,
- they see that overall, we've done pretty well for ourselves.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: And I'll just throw you
- some quick topics here.
- There was a rally for rights.
- What was that?
- SUE COWELL: Well, Anita Bryant was coming to town
- on her big campaign against homosexuality,
- and morality, and all this sort of stuff.
- And we thought that we should have a response to it.
- And this is where Bill Benet, again,
- played a big, big role in this.
- Because I wanted to do a rally for human rights,
- not a rally for gay rights.
- And we're not just for gay rights.
- I wanted it to be broader.
- And I took a little flak from some
- of the hardcore feminists and some other people about that.
- But I broadened it.
- I mean, it doesn't always have to be gay people speaking
- on gay rights.
- And in fact, that's why I think we have made progress,
- because we have a tremendous number of straight allies.
- And so Bill Benet spoke.
- We had-- the poet Kate Millett spoke.
- Who else did we have?
- Karen DeCrow, who had been the president of NOW who
- was a lesbian, but she didn't know it at the time.
- So we just had a variety of different people.
- And we had musicians speaking, and poets, and just
- made it a really big event.
- I mean, there was over one thousand people
- at Genesee Crossroads Park in 1979.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Community reaction to it?
- SUE COWELL: Well, I think from our community
- it had a lasting impact.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Watch your microphone.
- SUE COWELL: Oh, sorry.
- From our community, I think it impacted a lot of people.
- There was a long time-- people would just come and say,
- "I was there."
- And that it was really a turning point
- for them to realize that they could
- be out and proud in the middle of the day
- on a weekend in downtown, and the world didn't fall apart.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: In all of the activism
- here, whether it was the rally to rights,
- or your involvement with the Gay Alliance, or the work
- that you started developing for the whole HIV/AIDS pandemic,
- any concern for your job?
- Anything?
- SUE COWELL: Well, no.
- Because my job at the U of R--
- I mean, they really were tremendous to me.
- And I think because of my age, I brought a perspective that
- was probably valuable to them.
- And then when I was at the University of Rochester,
- and they allowed me to be involved
- with planning around the AIDS task force,
- is when I met Mark Merkens, who is
- the deputy director at the county health department.
- And the counties were always more direct service as opposed
- to the state, which has more oversight of medical care,
- and regulations, and funding.
- And as we continued to work together,
- then there was going to be a position opening at the county
- health department.
- And it would be called the AIDS coordinator.
- And so he asked if I was interested.
- And I said yes, and I applied, and went through civil service,
- and all the various hoops.
- And so I ended up there at the county.
- And for me, it worked out well.
- Because when I was at the University Health Service,
- I felt like I had gone as far as I could.
- I started several programs, and they were going to continue.
- We started the whole health education series of brochures,
- and just changing the way that we would do patient intakes
- and interviews, to ask questions about unwanted sexual activity,
- or just different things, where it kind of made
- a difference in the health care that people were getting.
- So for me, that was a really good time horizon.
- And I could see that it would give me
- a bigger platform and a little bit more influence.
- Because, actually, Jackie Nudd, who
- was hired as the first director of AIDS Rochester, NY,
- went and spoke to the county, and it was around HIV testing.
- And they weren't going to start doing the testing,
- even though it was available, because they
- were like in a little tiff with the state.
- I'll just leave it at that.
- And so I knew that there was work to do,
- and so it was a challenge.
- And I liked Mark.
- We got along well.
- And it just seemed like it was just meant to be.
- It was like a natural evolution.
- KEVIN INDOVINO: Can I ask you about Jackie Nudd?
- SUE COWELL: Um-hm.